To DakshinamoortyWhy Ketu cannot be atmakaraka?- Query by Ms.Jyothi Lakshmi.

[Guest guest]

Dear Sir,

 

 

I am sorry that I used inappropriate words. But it was not

at all written with any disrespect towards any scriptures. (The case

of considering rahu, as I read, was presented everywhere in a very

silly manner without any proper explanation, which made me protest

against the 'way' of presenting it. (In all sites which I read, it

was presented in the same way, that if two planets are having same

longitudes, then Rahu is brought into picture. Nowhere was given any

explanation for it, why this Rahu is kept in pipeline).

 

I have great respect towards astrology as a predictive science.

But that doesnt prevent me from expressing my doubts even if it may

go against the belief. Respect is there on one side of the coin

because with my limited knowledge, I have seen it working as a very

good indicator of general prospects, and in many cases accurately.

But on the other side I have my own doubts arising (doubts and NOT

disrespect)as I am still trying to explore it. I am just expressing

this latter side.

 

I know you are all learned members who have taken up this as a

profession after a thorough study and analysis. That is the only

reason, why I ask doubts here. This is the only platform which I see

to interact with members learned in varied branches of occult. I do

not wish to elaborate on this, as it is understood, and does not need

any credentials from my side.

 

I would just hope, that personal remarks will be avoided and that

focus is given on the question only. I myself will take care of that

too, in case anybody felt bad in any of my mails.

 

 

Regards,

Jyothi

 

 

 

 

vedic astrology, "dakshinastrologer"

<dakshinastrologer> wrote:

>

> Dear Ms.Jyothi,

>

> I am sorry if I have hurt you with earlier replies. But, I just

> wanted to make a valid point..... Even in your current post, when

> you say accepting Rahu to fill in karakatwas in case of planets

> attaining similar longitudes is "absurd"(sic) to you, and

statements

> like "BTW, I doubt if in astrology everything is really working so

> perfectly."!!!??? Kindly do not speak in such terms. You are most

> welcome to have your doubts if astrology works or not! If you read

> classics like Prasna Marga or even works of Varahamihira you will

find

> that astrologers have been expressly prohibited from giving

> predictions to non-believers. If you are a non-believer, astrology

> will fail you. Let me assure you that!

>

> Most astrologers (at least the capable ones!) are intelligent

beyond

> normal levels. For your information people like Pt. Sanjay Rath,

> Shri. P.V.R. Narasimha Rao, Shri. K.N. Rao, and for that even

myself

> are people who have made our marks in esteemed professions and

then,

> later, out of interest and conviction are in this field. Do not

think

> for a moment that people like us believe in something by shutting

our

> eyes! We are as analytical as anybody else, but we do so with some

> reverence towards the sages.

>

> Rishi pramanas are a result of intense results of highly evolved

> minds. And in some cases, the results will happen as said by the

> rishis just because of their vak-bala. If you approach their works

> with devotion and follow a religious discipline, you will find that

> your predictions work out wonderfully. So, accept a hypotheses,

try

> to work it out by experience, and then, if you still feel the

> hypotheses are questionable try to resolve them by effective

> alternatives.

>

> My suggestion to you would be to take up systematic learning under

a

> competent Guru. You need not study all classics. One good teacher

is

> worth a million books. You can also undertake self study, and

while

> going thorugh a full classic you will find that your doubts will

get

> cleared automatically. Become a master of one branch of astrology

> (Parashari or Jaimini) to a reasonable level and then try to

undertake

> research.

>

> You could accept it when you were rejected by ISRO, but seem to

feel

> bad when I suggest you to acquaint yourself better with the

classics

> before posting sensitive issues. The issue of 7 karakas or 8

karakas

> in chara karakatwa is a controversial point what with even senior

> astrologers divided in 2 camps! While you are most welcome to ask

> doubts, kindly refrain from using sweeping statements and usage of

> words like "absurd" which are disrespectul towards sages. Read a

> standard translation on Jaimini Sutras (I doubt if you know

sanskrit,

> and even if you know sanskrit, Jaimini Sutras follow a cryptic form

> which ordinary sanskrit will not always help in deciphering) or

BPHS

> 32 chapter on Karakatwas. If you do not get the meaning right the

> first time... does not matter... do it again and again,,,,you will

> eventually get the true meaning of these and how they work.

>

> Did you personally recheck "Michelson-Morley Experiment" in

RElativity

> by duplicating the experiment. You accepted it... is it not? The

> same is the case in astrology. Elaborate researches of a kind

> unthinkable by present generations have been done before these

rishi

> pramanas were written. If you also decide to undertake research

and

> evolve your theories in astrology, you are most welcome. But, what

I

> feel is that you will spend a full life-time in doing so, and

> ultimately I am sure, you will come to derive the same rishi

pramanas!

> What is the point? While blind-belief is wrong.....complete

> disbelief is an unnecessary burden. I do not intend to reply in

this

> matter anymore as it may generate illfeelings.

>

> I once again apologise if I have hurt you in anyway. My intention

is

> not that. Infact, I have earlier mentioned that you will be the

pride

> of any astrological teacher! YOu have a good research bent of

mind, a

> good attitude and willingness to see the other point of view. But,

> astrology is a Divine Science and should learnt with humility and

> respect towards the great souls who have selflessly left their

> immortal classics for our guidance. If we falter today in applying

> those principles, the blame lies on us and not on Them.

>

> My humble suggestion again is to find a competent astrological Guru

to

> guide your way in the ocean of astrology.

>

> Discussion between enlightened minds alone can churn conflicting

views

> and bring out truth. Discussion without ample foothold in the

subject

> will only turn the clear stream muddy making it unfit for

consumption.

> If you get conflicting views, you really get more confused rather

than

> anywhere near the truth. Is it not? As you have yourself said you

> find it difficult whom to believe when conflicting statements arise

as

> in the case of your post on lagna lord's placement effects. But,

if

> you had taken the simple alternative of relying on rishi pramana,

BPHS

> is clear and unequivocal in delineating the results. I had one

member

> challenging the views expressed by me as being opposed to Sage

> Parashara's views! while infact, I had relied on BPHS for answering

> your post (and I have real-life testimonies that confirmed the BPHS

> results!). He thought I was saying something opposed to SAge

> Parashara's views. It is another matter that the member later

> realized his mistake.

>

> Such pointless debates is a waste of time and energies. Life is

too

> short, and the magnitude of unexplored knowledge so vast that it is

> futile to get yourself engaged in pointless deliberations. Though

> views can be thousand, truth can be ONLY ONE. Classics based on

Rishi

> Pramanas are the best starting points for a beginner. Then, when

you

> have attained some basic level of proficiency, it is good to

discuss,

> deliberate, and debate which will sharpen your analytical skills

which

> is most essential for astrology.

>

> I never doubted your sincerity, and I do not feel you are asking

> questions just for the heck of it. If I had felt that way, I will

not

> be writing lengthy mails in reply.

>

> May the wisdom of the sages shine on you.

>

> Blessed be.

>

> vedic astrology, "jyothi_b_lakshmi"

> <jyothi_b_lakshmi> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Sir,

> >

> > Thanks for a wonderful explanation.

> >

> > I know it is inappropriate to ask doubts with a limited

> > knowledge. But I am just in the process of learning, but

> > unfortuanetly not in a very systematic way which is at present

> > impossible for me. If one is permitted to ask doubts only after

> > learning all the classics, then perhaps, I am not eligible to ask

> any

> > doubts in this group at all and I will just have to withdraw and

> seek

> > the help of books which I am happy to do but may take time.

Moreover

> > if I study all the classics, may be sometimes, I wont have

anything

> > to ask at all.

> >

> > So if possible and if willing it would be better if everybody

> > share their knowledge, whatever they know, not keeping the

criteria

> > that the questioner should be a professional astrologer adept in

all

> > classics. And I am not asking my doubts just to question anybody

or

> > just for the sake of asking questions(may be my questions sound

so).

> > This exemption of Ketu, as I told, was something which I noticed

> only

> > recently when going through the sample horoscopes in JHora. So

> > thought if any members knew the exact reason for it.

> >

> > BTW, I doubt if in astrology everything is really working so

> > perfectly. Anyways that is not issue that can be resolved so

> quickly,

> > may be because of the existing different schools of thought. (I

read

> > that some use 7 charakaraka scheme and some use 8 chara karaka

> scheme

> > etc which doesnt make any sense to me.)

> >

> > Logical reasonings to me are just ways to find the truth and

not

> > to deem rishi pramanas as defective. May be some hidden meanings

can

> > be found in the course of search for truth. It is VERY VERY easy

to

> > set aside all the doubts and believe with shut eyes whatever each

> and

> > everybody says, but then for me, it doesnt give any satisfaction,

> > moreover it arises the question as to which I should believe as

> there

> > are various interpretations(see the contradictory opnions for

Lagna

> > lord effects). This confusion will again compel me to ask a 'why'

> and

> > find the truth for myself. Since the members in this group are

> > already experienced and learned, if they share their knowledge,

the

> > search can be made easy, and that is the reason for my posts.

> >

> > Just made clear, in case you doubt my sincerity in asking

> > questions.

> >

> > Regarding 'rahu's inclusion in case of tie-up' seems extremely

> > absurd to me. Is this a game or what? If the longitude is given

> > importance to determine the karakatwa, then how can one overide

that

> > fact and 'bring in' Rahu to make up that? Or will bringing in

Rahu

> > solve the problem of 'tie-up'. If yes, how? Then what is the

> > significance of longitude in this matter? I really dont

understand.

> I

> > am really sorry if again these doubts arise out of my deficient

> > knowledge in classics. If there are members who are thorough in

> > classics and who can clear these doubts it will be really

helpful,

> or

> > else I will just withdraw my doubt and will try to find out for

> > myself.

> >

> >

> > Regards,

> > jyothi.

> >

> >

> >

> > vedic astrology, "dakshinastrologer"

> > <dakshinastrologer> wrote:

> > >

> > > DEar Ms.Jyothi,

> > >

> > > Kindly consider this.....

> > >

> > > In a Defence training establishment, the Commandant is the

> over-all

> > > incharge. But, that does not mean he will directly take part

and

> > > oversee each and every training module of every trainee! He

will

> > have

> > > an overview of the training and he will distribute various

> subjects

> > > and portfolios for administration of the Academy to different

> > > officers. He will retain charge of ONLY the overall

supervision.

> > > Ultimately, every cadet who is passing out of the Academy will

be

> > > familiar to the Commandant. But, generally he is NOT allocated

> > minor

> > > training modules as allocating minor things to him will spoil

his

> > > overall efficiency of overseeing the running and coordinating

the

> > > activities of the academy.

> > >

> > > This may be a crude example. But, it is analogous to Ketu not

> > being

> > > given a karakatwa. By the way, I do not know if you have taken

> > note

> > > of the fact that I have mentioned that "EVen RAhu is not

assigned

> a

> > > karakatwa UNLESS there is a tie up of karakatwas between two

> > planets

> > > due to their attaining similar longitudes!"

> > >

> > > Another thing, I do not know if you have studied BPHS. In that

> > also

> > > it is clearly mentioned that the karakatwas are only

distributed

> > among

> > > the seven planets from Sun to Saturn.

> > >

> > > Just as the principal of a school does not teach alphabets to

the

> > > kindergarten kids (though he is overall responsible for their

> > > wellbeing and progress in his institution), Just as the academy

> > > commandant does not train his cadets in everyday drills and

> service

> > > classes, Ketu - the significator of Moksha does not directly

> assume

> > > karakatwa in the mundane events of an individual. At the same

> > time,

> > > just as the Principal will monitor the progress of every

student

> > and

> > > may even give some special lessons in rare cases, just as the

> > Academy

> > > commandant may help a cadet out in difficult circumstances by

> > directly

> > > involving himself in some aspect of training, Ketu does play a

> role

> > in

> > > many vital areas of life. You will find results attributed to

> > > placement of Ketu in karakamsa, etc. in Jaimini's works. Of

> > course,

> > > in vimshottari dasa of Parasari system, Ketu is alloted his

> > periods.

> > > But, all these logical reasonings are in a way blasphemous

> > according

> > > to me. These may imply that we deem the rishi pramanas are

> > defective

> > > in some way. I will tell you one thing.... It is more

important

> to

> > > make things work rather than trying to nitpick and find WHY

they

> > work,

> > > if everything is perfect. Astrology of the seers - in my

humble

> > > opinion- has been derived after intense study, research, and

above

> > all

> > > after intense tapasyas which ordinary mortals of this present

age

> > can

> > > never hope to attain!

> > >

> > > One suggestion to you please..... Research should be done ONLY

> > after

> > > you have thoroughly acquainted yourself with the classics.

Ketu,

> > or

> > > for that matter, any planet is not superior to one or the

other...

> .

> > > They all have certain portfolios over certain areas of our

lives.

> > > Ketu does not directly grant Gnana or moksha to anybody. It is

> > only

> > > Divine Grace that can lift and save a person from the endless

> cycle

> > of

> > > birth and death. Astrology only shows the way.... It is not

THE

> > WAY.

> > > Ketu only facilitates acquisition of gnana, he does not GRANT

> > gnana.

> > > Every planet has its own role to play on the psyche of an

> > individual

> > > so that he evolves as a complete human being.

> > >

> > > Mundane events, though they seem important to us from our

earthly

> > > views, are not all that important from a spiritual point of

view.

> > In

> > > the path of siddhas and great Gnanis, even Sins or Merits have

no

> > > place. All karmas (Whether good or bad) are hindrances for

> > eventual

> > > liberation of the soul. As Lord Krishna says in Bhagavat

> > Gita "Burn

> > > away all your sins with the Fire of Wisdom". Lives of many

great

> > > gnanis will show you that they have transcended the plane of

the

> > > planetary influences. Planets control your destiny only as

long

> as

> > > you are under karmic bonds. Jeevanmuktas are not bound or

> > influenced

> > > by planets!

> > >

> > > Blessed be.vedic-

> > astrology, "jyothi_b_lakshmi"

> > > <jyothi_b_lakshmi> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Sir,

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Shall I share some more thoughts which arose on

> > reading

> > > > your mail? The reason that ketu is a Moksha karaka and it is

> not

> > > > significant for mundane gains, as I said seems a bit

> > unsatisfactory.

> > > > Now I will say why I feel so. A person when born, is not by

> > default

> > > a

> > > > jeevanmukta. He is gradually or step by step attaining that

> > state.

> > > > And as far as I have understood, Ketu plays a very

significant

> > role

> > > > in catalysing one to reach that state by creating detachment,

> > > > obstacles or whatever it is. In short, Ketu is the planet

which

> > > > pushes one to that state. Unless there is somebody to guide

(be

> > it

> > > by

> > > > pressurising or in a smooth way), the state is not reached.

And

> > till

> > > > the state is reached isnt such a catalysing factor essential?

> And

> > if

> > > > Ketu does that job perfectly, why is still excluded?

> > > >

> > > > Exclusion of Ketu seems like Ketu doesnt have any

> > significance

> > > > in ones life time. Also it seems as if moksha is something

> > separate

> > > > from the life,something which cannot be connected to the

life.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Regards,

> > > > Jyothi

> > > >

> > > > vedic astrology, dakshinamoorthi r

> > > > <dakshinastrologer> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Ms.Jyothi Lakshmi,

> > > > >

> > > > > Even Rahu cannot become a karaka unless there is a tie

> > > > > up between two planets for a karakatwa thereby leaving

> > > > > some karakatwa vacant by Jaimini Muni Pramana.

> > > > >

> > > > > I will quote Adhyaya 1 Pada 1 Sutra 11 for your

> > > > > reference:

> > > > >

> > > > > "Aathmadikah kalaadibhirna bhogah saptaanaam

> > > > > ashtaanaamva"

> > > > >

> > > > > meaning of the seven planets from Sun to Saturn, or

> > > > > the eight planets from Sun to Rahu, whichever get the

> > > > > highest number of degrees becomes the atmakaraka.

> > > > >

> > > > > Another point you should note is that Rahu and Ketu

> > > > > are deemed to have got higher number of degrees in the

> > > > > reverse order ( I mean to say, subtract the longitude

> > > > > of Rahu from 30 deg. The resultant is to be taken as

> > > > > the degrees attained by Rahu for the purpose of

> > > > > determining whether it has got more degrees or not).

> > > > > This is my view which was corroborated also by Dr.

> > > > > B.V.RAMAN of revered memory (Ofcourse you must be

> > > > > aware of that Great Man!).

> > > > >

> > > > > These are axioms not theorems. (Mathematics students

> > > > > will know it. An axiom is a First principle that is

> > > > > assumed to be true and that cannot be proved as

> > > > > opposed to a theorem for which a logical proof can be

> > > > > derived).

> > > > >

> > > > > Though I appreciate your enthusiasm and research bent

> > > > > of mind, kindly differentiate between an axiom and a

> > > > > theory while discussing these topics.

> > > > >

> > > > > Another point is interesting to note. Even in Prasna

> > > > > shastra (in ashtamangala prasna) only eight planets

> > > > > are included (excluding Ketu) while deriving various

> > > > > significations. The savants must have had their own

> > > > > reasons for that.

> > > > >

> > > > > Or, may be as Ketu is a significator for ultimate

> > > > > realization and final emancipation and Eternal Wisdom,

> > > > > he may not have a portfolio for mundane events. For

> > > > > instance, you cannot have an ascetic as a head of a

> > > > > charitable trust! (Though you see Godmen managing

> > > > > ashrams and other grand things, it is against the

> > > > > basic tenet of real ascetism. Lord Dattatreya -

> > > > > considered to be the adi guru of ascetism says that

> > > > > even the company of 2 persons may lead to unnecessary

> > > > > words and strife and deviate one from the real Goal of

> > > > > Realization). This is only my humble logic which

> > > > > ofcourse may not be correct. The rishis would have

> > > > > DEFINITELY had their own higher logics for that.

> > > > >

> > > > > Blessed be.

> > > > >

> > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends

> > > > http://in.messenger.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Ketu is not part of conscious effort. It is part of instinctual and mechanical

action and therefore, not a karaka. It lends reality to "past" and hence makes

time seem "real".In my view, Intuition is not Ketu forte, but instincts are. It

is best to define the term to understand it better - Intuition is learnt

know-how but linkages to its current memory aren't present. So we know somehow,

what is and what isn't, yet we cannot place its direct reference to memory.

There is a strong connection of intuition with Jupiter. Any person who studies

oneself for knowing oneself, not as a hobby or interest, but with mumukshatvam,

will explain that past experiences play a major role in analysis and

discrimination. With the past are carried the notions of limitedness,

complexes, etc. Hence, it can be said to play a role. Why Ketu is included to

represent the sthira karaka, has a connection to instincts and past. I haven't

checked it up and will soon do, if I find time.Thanks and RegardsBharat

On 12/21/05, jyothi_b_lakshmi <jyothi_b_lakshmi (AT) (DOT) co.in> wrote:

Dear Sir,

Shall I share some more thoughts which arose on reading

your mail? The reason that ketu is a Moksha karaka and it is not

significant for mundane gains, as I said seems a bit unsatisfactory.

Now I will say why I feel so. A person when born, is not by default a

jeevanmukta. He is gradually or step by step attaining that state.

And as far as I have understood, Ketu plays a very significant role

in catalysing one to reach that state by creating detachment,

obstacles or whatever it is. In short, Ketu is the planet which

pushes one to that state. Unless there is somebody to guide (be it by

pressurising or in a smooth way), the state is not reached. And till

the state is reached isnt such a catalysing factor essential? And if

Ketu does that job perfectly, why is still excluded?

Exclusion of Ketu seems like Ketu doesnt have any significance

in ones life time. Also it seems as if moksha is something separate

from the life,something which cannot be connected to the life.

Regards,

Jyothi

vedic astrology, dakshinamoorthi r

<dakshinastrologer> wrote:

>

> Dear Ms.Jyothi Lakshmi,

>

> Even Rahu cannot become a karaka unless there is a tie

> up between two planets for a karakatwa thereby leaving

> some karakatwa vacant by Jaimini Muni Pramana.

>

> I will quote Adhyaya 1 Pada 1 Sutra 11 for your

> reference:

>

> "Aathmadikah kalaadibhirna bhogah saptaanaam

> ashtaanaamva"

>

> meaning of the seven planets from Sun to Saturn, or

> the eight planets from Sun to Rahu, whichever get the

> highest number of degrees becomes the atmakaraka.

>

> Another point you should note is that Rahu and Ketu

> are deemed to have got higher number of degrees in the

> reverse order ( I mean to say, subtract the longitude

> of Rahu from 30 deg. The resultant is to be taken as

> the degrees attained by Rahu for the purpose of

> determining whether it has got more degrees or not).

> This is my view which was corroborated also by Dr.

> B.V.RAMAN of revered memory (Ofcourse you must be

> aware of that Great Man!).

>

> These are axioms not theorems. (Mathematics students

> will know it. An axiom is a First principle that is

> assumed to be true and that cannot be proved as

> opposed to a theorem for which a logical proof can be

> derived).

>

> Though I appreciate your enthusiasm and research bent

> of mind, kindly differentiate between an axiom and a

> theory while discussing these topics.

>

> Another point is interesting to note. Even in Prasna

> shastra (in ashtamangala prasna) only eight planets

> are included (excluding Ketu) while deriving various

> significations. The savants must have had their own

> reasons for that.

>

> Or, may be as Ketu is a significator for ultimate

> realization and final emancipation and Eternal Wisdom,

> he may not have a portfolio for mundane events. For

> instance, you cannot have an ascetic as a head of a

> charitable trust! (Though you see Godmen managing

> ashrams and other grand things, it is against the

> basic tenet of real ascetism. Lord Dattatreya -

> considered to be the adi guru of ascetism says that

> even the company of 2 persons may lead to unnecessary

> words and strife and deviate one from the real Goal of

> Realization). This is only my humble logic which

> ofcourse may not be correct. The rishis would have

> DEFINITELY had their own higher logics for that.

>

> Blessed be.

>

> Send instant messages to your online friends

http://in.messenger.

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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