5 mails - Sookshma Shareera/Budhi/Manas/Indriyas & Navapranas

February 20, 2006

Dear Bharat ji Namaskar

Thanks for the detailed explanations and Koshas.

Though, 5 are the vital functions of Prana,the secondary ones too are

part of sookshma shareera.Dhananjaya is excepeted for the reason

mentioned in the previous mail,and hence the other nine are related to

navamshas.

In Jyotisha,we are studying the confluence of numerous entities,for eg

sookshma shareera,comprising of navapranas,dasha indriyas,manas and

budhi along with sthoola shareera.Pranas alone or indriyas alone cannot

make a meaning.All the entities have to act in coordination.The order or

samyoga krama from atma onwards is as follows.Atma joins Manas,Manas to

Indriyas,Indriyas to Vishayas(loosely translation ''subjects''),then

vishaya sukha etc.

Atma just goes where the manas is taking him.Manas directs indriyas and

indriyas associates with various vishayas and pleasures.

Mind as you have said has many functions - Budhi,Ahamkara,Chitta and

Manas.Manas is very important as it has a big role in directing our

indriyas.But as chitta,is past impressions stored,it can act with

guidance from Budhi (discriminator),to give proper signals to the

manas.For the same reason it is said,Guru aspecting 5th lord is Budhi

Madhurya(Dr.B.V.Raman 300 imp cominations).5th lords disposition from

Brihaspati is also important - It shows whether the instructions from

Brihaspati (Jnana Sukha karaka)can be received or not.Whenever we are

analyzing or trying to perceive,budhi interacts with chitta, to study

based on past impressions.These are passed on to manas.Manas process

these along with impressions(ongoing) gathered through

indriyas.Brihaspati is Jnana as well as Sukha Karaka.Budha is Jnana

Swarupa and karaka for ''Vak''.As we know control of indriyas,or

withdrawal is the only way, for taming the mind.But Mind is such a

thing, that is so difficult to control.Here Budhi & Chitta can be handy,

as mentioned above.Thus we may have to gain Vairagya through

practise,obeying to budhi.

The sookshma shareera spans across numerous koshas.Thus it may not be

easy to group or confine them within certain koshas as you have

mentioned.Eg.If Vargamshas from Kshethra to Dwadashamsha are

Annamaya,then how do you include navamshas which are

navapranas.Pranamaya Kosha is supposed to have pranas.But as i am not

sure,i am refraining from making comments.

But if you can close your eyes and think for few seconds,you can

perceive what a Bhava is(Also think of Bhava in Nritta and Sangeetha -

The art forms are expressions arising out of internal and external

harmony.When one forgets about mind,True Bhava manifests with Laya or

flow).It is the simultaneous functioniong of numerous entities.Think of

the functioning of human system.A body(sthoola) simultaneously working

with prana,indriya,manas,budhi,ahamkara etc can only have a Bhava.Prana

alone does not have any bhava - so is manas - it has to get impressions

from indriyas or past ones from chitta.How we are able to derive each

and every amsha from individual rashis, holds the conclusion.A rashi is

a sumtotal of all these.Planets are giving life,which they in turn have

gained from Soorya.Purusha manifests as Prana.

I may be wrong or right.But i am depending on classics to arrive at

conclusions.I do not have courage to frame theories.If you are

certain,you may kindly explain how nava pranas taken together can result

in a Bhava.My understanding is to think of, how pranas are infleuncing a

bhava.Classical examples too demonstrate the same.

You are free to hold your opinion and can correct me,with classics or

logic.

Regds

Pradeep

vedic astrology, "Bharat Hindu Astrology"

<hinduastrology wrote:

>

> Namaskaar Sri Pradeep

>

> It is no use giving simple explanations on the forum.

>

> Taittirya Upanishad Chapter XIII: Than that, verily -than this one

formed of

> Prana -there is another self within formed of Manas. By Him this one

is

> filled.

>

> When we talk of Jnana indriyas, we talk of two things- organs of

perception

> and their stimuli being registered in the mind. As the indriyas by

itself

> cannot bring Jnana or cognition, it is the Manomaya Kosha or the Mind

that

> brings it. The word Jnana indriyas therefore refers to perception. To

say

> perception rests with the Mind is okay to say that senses rest with

the

> mind, will be incorrect. So Jnana indriyas is another function of the

mind

> and a different one from its other functions. It should not be taken

as a

> separate organ or a place or else.

>

> The mano maya kosha is the first kosha in the order from gross to

subtle to

> be show cognition as it has more of Sattva Guna as compared to

Pranamaya

> kosha which is mostly Rajas and Anamayakosha that is mostly Tamas. So

here

> in lies the instrument of karana sakti, and the bhoga sakti. As of

product

> of Jnana sakti, it has various vrittis.

>

> "Desire, representation, doubt, faith, want of faith, want of

firmness,

> shame, reflection, fear - all in mind" - Brihadaryanka Upanishad 1-5-3

>

> So among many functions Jnana Indriyas is the cognition of perception.

But

> senses shall remain in the sthoola sarira. Pranas that prevades the

anamaya

> kosha or the sthoola sarira, shall be the sthana of Karma Indriyas,

meaning

> the enabling the function of action. It is the carrier of Manomaya

kosha's

> directives to the limbs and organs of actions of the body. Again it is

one

> of the functions and not a separate place, or identity.

>

> As Mano-maya kosha prevades the pranamaya kosha, the function of

perception

> shall prevade the pranamaya kosha but the senses itself shall not

prevade

> the pranamaya kosha. As Pranamaya does not have distinct parts, just

as in

> manomaya kosha, it is a unity present in every part of the body

performing

> its functions.

>

> Now, I see you mention 10 pranas. It is correct, though generally 5

> prominent ones are used and in the Upanishad these five are mentioned.

> (Maitreya Up. 2-6)

>

> Trimshamshas are pancha jnanendriyas.Sun and Moon do not have any

> ownership here.When we think it is clear.

> It is the indriyas through which we are drawing impressions from the

> external and hence the cause for evils.

>

> If we see the same, then, what I had suggested to you and the forum,

earlier

> could be true. D1-D12 - Anamaya kosha D13-D24 Pranamaya Kosha, D25-D36

> (where in D30 lies) Manomaya Kosha. (This was followed by chat with

Sri Hari

> and Sri Parthasarathy too)

>

> Could then, divisional charts (D25-D36) relate to the different

functions of

> the mind? I am certain of two things:

> 1. They can be used separately in view of the above- how we need to

find

> out. Possible clues could be checking the cognition of different

stimuli,

> what desires move about, in what the person's faith lies, etc. After

all,

> the causes of bodily actions lie in these charts, there is much more

to

> them.

>

> 2. More research is needed.

>

> Thanks and Regards

> Bharat

>

On 2/19/06, vijayadas_pradeep vijayadas_pradeep wrote:

> >

> > Dear Anilkumar ji,Arjun ji ,Bharatji Namaskaar

> >

> > EkaVimshopi(21) constituents of Sookshma shareera are composed of

> > dwadasha(12) Budhindriyaadis and navapranas.

> > Here 12,Budhi-indriyaadis are Budhi,Manas and 10 Indriyas.

> >

> > Arjun ji as you may be aware,Organs are different from indriyas.

> > 1)Jnanendriyas -smell,taste,see,touch,hear.

> > 2)Karmendriyas -excrete,reproduce,move,grasp,speak.

> > Thus nose,ear,legs etc are the organs corresponding to the above 10

> > indriyas.

> > Nava Pranas are -

> > Pranan,Apanan,Samanan,Vyanan,Udanan,Nagam,Koormam,Krikalam &

> > Devadattam.Tenth Prana Dhananjaya,is for dead bodies.

> >

> > Rashi is sthoola shareera ,comprising of Organs.But organs are just

> > structures if there is no life.Thus Purusha manifests as Prana.

> >

> > Trimshamshas are pancha jnanendriyas.Sun and Moon do not have any

> > ownership here.When we think it is clear.

> > It is the indriyas through which we are drawing impressions from the

> > external and hence the cause for evils.

> >

> > Can indriyas alone be considered as a Bhava?No.Bhava is the

confluence

> > of many.We should think how it is possible to study all aspects

> > pertaining to a jataka from ''Rashi Chakra''.

> > This is possible as, one rashi becomes a bhava,when it has a lord

w.r

> > to lagna.For properly understanding the functioning of each Bhava,we

> > have to see the subtle infleunces on bhava nathas.Each subtle

> > infleunce will have a role,for eg,navamsha infleunce is

corresponding

> > to kalathra,bhagya etc.

> > Thus sookshma shareera acts in sync with corresponding sthoola

> > shareera organs.Trying to study them in isolation or considering

Bhava

> > there is beyond my understanding.Others who have understood may

> > explain for better comprehension.We should think why we do not have

> > shlokas to support bhavas in vargamsha groupings.Why is Vargottama

> > important?Any planet is a Bhavanatha or karaka.When he is having

> > similar subtle and gross infleuences,shubha results.

> >

> > When time permits ,i can share some more from the works of

> > Mahamunis,if it is helpful for you.Mind - and its

> > constituents,improtance of chitta(past impressions and),Budhi,

> > Ahamkara etc.Chitta is also 5th house and PoorvaPunya.

> >

> > Thanks

> > Pradeep

> >

> > vedic astrology, "panditarjun2004"

> > panditarjun2004@ wrote:

> > >

> > > namaste bharat ji

> > >

> > > i am looking at how to read from the signs, houses or planets on

all

> > > kinds of indriyas (not body organs). we all learnt how bodily

parts

> > > are read from various houses starting from head from langa to feet

> > > in the 12th. please share on reading of these indriyas (sensory

and

> > > non-sensory) from a sign/house/planet.

> > >

> > > the two nadis ida and pingala are related to sun and moon.

> > > similarly please share how the five vayus are read in astrology.

i

> > > understand that the seven chakras (mooladhara, svadhisthana,

> > > manipuraka, anahata, vishuddha, ajna and sahasrara) can also be

read

> > > from a chart and have their correlation with signs, houses and

> > > planets. would be grateful if any member share information on

this.

> > >

> > > with best wishes and regards

> > > arjun

> > >

> > > vedic astrology, "Bharat Hindu Astrology"

> > > <hinduastrology@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Namaskaar Sri Arjun

> > > >

> > > > The Jnanaindriyas are the five senses of perception. The five

> > > karma indriyas

> > > > are organs of speech, hands, legs, organ of procreation, and

organ

> > > of

> > > > excretion. The pranamaya kosha (prana, apana, udana, vyana and

> > > samana)

> > > > provide the forces that make the indriyas function.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks and Regards

> > > > Bharat

> > > >

> > > > On 2/18/06, panditarjun2004 <panditarjun2004@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > dear anil ji

> > > > >

> > > > > you wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > > Pradeep:Thus Rashis are 12 and they constitue 12 organs as

> > > well as

> > > > > > 12 bhavas.Sookshma shareera consists of navapranas and 12

> > > indiryas.

> > > > > > Anil:There are 5 Jnyanendriyas and 5 Karmendriyas so 10

only.

> > > > > > Please give supporting verses. Organs and Indriyas are

> > > different.

> > > > >

> > > > > without knowing whether the indriyas are twelve or ten, i

would

> > > request

> > > > > you to give their correlation to signs or houses in seriatim

for

> > > me to

> > > > > learn more.

> > > > >

> > > > > yes you are right in saying that organs are different from

> > > indriyas and

> > > > > it is organs which we consider for medical astrology. if you

> > > share

> > > > > your knowledge on indriyas it would help me understand better.

> > > > >

> > > > > with best wishes

> > > > > arjun

> > > > >

> > > > > Group info: vedic-

> > > astrology/info.html

> > > > >

> > > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-

> > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us .......

> > > > >

> > > > > Astrology chart</gads?

> > >

t=ms&k=Astrology+chart&w1=Astrology+chart&w2=Vedic+astrology&w3=Astro

> > >

logy+horoscope&w4=Astrology+software&c=4&s=91&.sig=UoktiPHSoTwQkpGMXB

> > > NeEg> Vedic

> > > > > astrology</gads?

> > >

t=ms&k=Vedic+astrology&w1=Astrology+chart&w2=Vedic+astrology&w3=Astro

> > >

logy+horoscope&w4=Astrology+software&c=4&s=91&.sig=qNtEn5POAbTpzmtNKI

> > > dnHA> Astrology

> > > > > horoscope</gads?

> > >

t=ms&k=Astrology+horoscope&w1=Astrology+chart&w2=Vedic+astrology&w3=A

> > > strology+horoscope&w4=Astrology+software&c=4&s=91&.sig=8kShDb5zI-

> > > EsRMSq6tgiew> Astrology

> > > > > software</gads?

> > >

t=ms&k=Astrology+software&w1=Astrology+chart&w2=Vedic+astrology&w3=As

> > >

trology+horoscope&w4=Astrology+software&c=4&s=91&.sig=Je51jg697mjdLNt

> > > 6iLuaCw>

> > > > > ------------------------------

> > > > >

> > > > > - Visit your group "vedic-

> > > astrology<vedic astrology>"

> > > > > on the web.

> > > > >

> > > > > -

> > > > >

vedic astrology<vedic astrology-

> > > ?subject=Un>

> > > > >

> > > > > - Terms

of

> > > > > Service <>.

> > > > >

> > > > > ------------------------------

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> > To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to

vedic astrology-

> >

> > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us .......

> >

> > Astrology

chart</gads?t=ms&k=Astrology+chart&w1=Astrology+c\

hart&w2=Vedic+astrology&w3=Astrology+horoscope&w4=Astrology+software&c=4\

&s=91&.sig=UoktiPHSoTwQkpGMXBNeEg> Vedic

> >

astrology</gads?t=ms&k=Vedic+astrology&w1=Astrolo\

gy+chart&w2=Vedic+astrology&w3=Astrology+horoscope&w4=Astrology+software\

&c=4&s=91&.sig=qNtEn5POAbTpzmtNKIdnHA> Astrology

> >

horoscope</gads?t=ms&k=Astrology+horoscope&w1=Ast\

rology+chart&w2=Vedic+astrology&w3=Astrology+horoscope&w4=Astrology+soft\

ware&c=4&s=91&.sig=8kShDb5zI-EsRMSq6tgiew> Astrology

> >

software</gads?t=ms&k=Astrology+software&w1=Astro\

logy+chart&w2=Vedic+astrology&w3=Astrology+horoscope&w4=Astrology+softwa\

re&c=4&s=91&.sig=Je51jg697mjdLNt6iLuaCw>

> > ------------------------------

> >

> > - Visit your group

"vedic astrology<vedic astrology>"

> > on the web.

> >

> > -

> >

vedic astrology-@y\

ahoogroups.com?subject=Un>

> >

> > - Terms of

> > Service <>.

> >

> > ------------------------------

> >

>

February 21, 2006

Namaskaar Sri Pradeep

First of all I must say what I have not said so far - You can make people

think and also make them study the classics before they reply to you. I

admire your questions and even if you are not open to existence of certain

ideas (due to lack of reference in classics or logic or reasoning regarding

the idea or else), your approach is worthy of praise.

Before we begin this journey, a small prayer:

OM SAHANA VAVATU SAHANA BHUNATTU, SAHA VIRYAM KARAWAVAHAI

TEJASVINAVADITAMASTU MA VIDVISHAVAHAI

OM SHANTI ! SHANTI ! SHANTI !

* Together may be be protected

Together may we be nourished

Together may we work with great energy

May our journey together be brilliant and effective

May there be no hatred between us

*

Now, back to our discussion. Let us not discuss charts here and understand

the concepts:

Though, 5 are the vital functions of Prana,the secondary ones too are

part of sookshma shareera.

I agreed with you even in my previous email. So no contention over here.

In Jyotisha,we are studying the confluence of numerous entities,for eg

sookshma shareera,comprising of navapranas,dasha indriyas,manas and

budhi along with sthoola shareera.Pranas alone or indriyas alone cannot

make a meaning.All the entities have to act in coordination.The order or

samyoga krama from atma onwards is as follows.Atma joins Manas,Manas to

Indriyas,Indriyas to Vishayas(loosely translation ''subjects''),then

vishaya sukha etc.

There are so many concepts in this one paragraph that I will need couple of

days to explain. Let me make some humble beginnings:

1. Action is not only that of the Sthoola Sarira. Each thought is likened to

an Action. To understand this, think of a person who becomes fearful of an

external situation. The fear is in the mind and it causes the discrimination

to vanish (vijnanamaya kosha) and it has effects on the (pranamaya kosha)

and through it on the (annamaya kosha). But if you think, fear is only in

the Mind. It is the action of the mind. Confluence of numerous entities is

fine, but, Veda is clear about cause and effect and in that we can see what

is going on in the manomaya kosha, that may or may not fructify into actual

physical action. If there was a way, we could understand that, would it not

be extremely helpful for any native?

2. Pranas and Jnana Indriyas have a great meaning alone. Blockages to prana

will give rise to disease in the Sthoola Sarira. I am taking a hypothetical

example - let's suppose one varga defines the functioning of apana and that

is showing defects, would it not mean directly that Sthoola Sarira will such

a disease? I think, through the varga we are going into the roots of things.

Remember what the Upanishad say, Prana prevade the sthoola sarira. This

means they are independent of the Sthoola Sarira and secondly, they are not

necessarily contained within the Sthoola Sarira. Now if some is deaf and

dumb or blind, the influence of those indriyas in not in the manomaya kosha.

How can you say with sureity that Prana and indriyas alone do not have any

meaning? That there are inter dependencies is fine, but causes lie deep

within through the kosas.

3. All entities may not act in coordination. This is the imbalance through

the manomaya kosha or pranamaya kosha.

4. Atma never joins the Manas. Atma is forever free. Atman is Brahman

(Mahavakya). Then, why do we call Atman and Brahman while referring it to

the same thing. It is because of our own limited thinking. Atman is referred

to the Truth while talking of the Self. While Brahman is spoken of as the

Truth while talking of the entirety. This does not make them different

entities.

Atma is Omnipresent and Omniscient, and therefore, it enlivens as cognition

in the mind. Mind is the collection of thoughts. It is born out of the

thought that I am not the whole. This "I" thought is the ego. Therefore, ego

takes a collection of thoughts and calls it one's mind. How is ego evident -

throught the light of Atma, how is mind evident - through the light of Atma.

Remember the verse of the Upanishad and of Aparokshanubhuti - Asti bhati

priyam rupam, naam ........ Aadhatriyam brahma rupam jagat rupam tato dvayam

(please do not mind my english transliteration). The existence, knowledge

and bliss of anything is of the nature of Brahman, whereas, nama and rupa is

the nature of the jagat (world). So that mind exists, and thought exists -

the existence is the quality of Atman but that we define a thought and give

a name to it, is born out of maya.

Therefore, for Atma there is no mind. For the mind, it has to disengage from

the desiring activities to the entity that enlivens it, to have some idea of

Atma. (This is a very basic idea here just to intellectually have an idea of

Atman)

Atma just goes where the manas is taking him.

Atman prevades vijnanamaya kosha and all objects and beings. Mind cannot

take it anywhere. Where mind goes, Atman is there already (many references

in Upanishad).

5. Mind is the controller of Indriyas in light of the Atman. Without its

light, indriyas would go out of control. For a moment, let us bring Dharma

instead of Atman. Dharma is vijnanamaya kosha. If Dharma isn't guiding the

mind, then mind cannot reign in the senses and that will result in

passionate actions. If one of the vargas is showing vijnana maya kosha and

another the manomaya kosha, their interaction will show whether or not the

native will follow Dharma while pursuing Artha and Kama. Is it not?

Now, why are we making such an assumption? Is it a new theory?

Jyotish as a shastra is subservient to Vedas. If Vedas have given the

panchkoshas, there has to be its relevance in the charts. You also agree to

the same and only object to seeing the koshas separately (which is akin to

seeing the divisional charts separately).

The underlying discussion should be held:

Whether the lagna chart is showing the Sthoola Sarira or it is the resultant

Jiva? I would love to hear your views. It could be both and each would raise

a volley of questions. If it is the resultant jiva, then, why study the

divisional chart at all. Why, even, go to the Navamsha? If it is the Sthoola

Sarira, then, why use it too much as most can be gathered through the

divisional chart?