Srimad Bhagavad Gita Chapter 15 and - Sreenadh ji

[Guest guest]

Dear Sreenadh ji

 

Thanks for your valuable inputs.

I understand your point to stick with astrological context and it is

correct to a ceratin extent.

However i have a feeling that as far as our tradition is concerned,all

the art forms,Puranas,Ithihasas,Vedantas etc have a common root,and

the essence is the same.I agree with Shri SanjayRath regarding this

matter.To understand Jyotisha Shasthra fully one may have to be aware

of all the shasthras.

As you know,Bhattathiris comments in Dashadhyayi on

panchajnanendriyas,and navapranas and its srtiking resemblance with

what we have found in Gita are drishtanthams for that.Bhattathiri and

all were scholars well versed in numerous shasthras.

 

If we go through Natya roopas or Sangeetha,they are systematically

developed in tune with movements of Prana.In Shasthreeya

Sangeetha,Gurus teach the students the secret technique of giving

Prana to ragas only after years of mastery.i am a common soul and was

not fortunate enough to learn music classically,though considers music

as a highest form for self realization and i do upasana.i was

fortunate to meet Ustad AliAkbar khan of the great Tanzen Gharana and

touch his feet.Ustad said the following about singing or playing music

- it takes 20 years training to properly listen to music,another 20 to

satisfy yourself,another 30 to satisfy Guru and one janma may not be

enough to satisfy Lord.Thus expression or true Bhava is Ishvara

darshanam.As lagna is all important in jyotisha,other bhavas are for

the growth of lagna,and they are infact -belonging to Soorya and

Chandra(Horas).

 

If we go through the keertanas,we can find Ganpati as seated in

Mooladhara Kshethram,We can see trimurthis of carnatic music talking

about Shukracharya.Thus there are common links.

 

But your caution is good.Unless one is very sure about analogies:it

can end us up in 'no mans land; if we use cricketing

terminology.Thanks for the caution.The expressions were out of my

random feelings.Kindly correct.

 

Thanks

Pradeep

 

 

 

vedic astrology, "Sreenadh" <sreelid wrote:

>

> Dear Bharat ji,

> ---------------

> You Pradeep you said: "My only request to you is - Do not hold the

> assumption - that vargas cannot be used independently and then, try

> to prove the same using everything that comes around."

> That statement captured my attention, and I read through the whole

> message, and again got struck in the statement:

> "Sreenadh ji is well read in classics and has not found a single

> reference supporting separate bhavas for amshas."

> I am well read or not is another thing, but it is true that:

> 1) I can not find a single reference supporting the

> separate/independent use of Vargas in astrological classics.

> 2) Any use of Bhava as a separate entity from Rasi, before the

> period of Sripathi (i.e. 10th Century AD)

> 3) If anyone could provide authentic slokas to disprove these

> statements, I am ready to change my views.

> You said:

> "There are about 10-15 persons who also well read in classics, say

> that Amshas should be used."

> It is not important who is arguing in support of independent use of

> Vargas (Amshas) or against it. For us (you, me and many like us), the

> true seekers of astrology, what should be important is the question

> is,. "What was original understanding of Rishis when they created

> this system?". Of course, we believe that they were meditative minds,

> well versed in this system, and also that now the system of astrology

> is in a demolished state as compared to its original trustworthy

> beautiful systematic state. The Rishis created this system, we still

> look back and depend on their views, and therefore there original

> notion of Varga and Bhava is more important than the views of me or

> anybody else. So let us try to seek those original views, rather

> being confused like - he is saying that, the other is saying that,

> and what should I depend on.

> I am not asking pradeep to depend on my views or of anybody else.

> Knowledge should come from "within" - in his case from within

> himself. He is following what he feels true, and every person is

> evolving through out his/her life. He too...You too...Me too...Every

> moment...Even in this discussion....

> Dear Bharath ji, thanks for remembering me in this discussion. My

> love and regards to you.

>

> Dear Padeep ji,

> ---------------

> What I would like to request you is -

> 1) Please Don't mix-up astrology and Vedanta.

> Though they many have done a lot of give and take and formed

> common views on many things, Astrology in itself is a separate

> branch, having its own theoretical foundation, as evident from Rishi

> Horas.

> 2) A word could have several meanings; let it be Sanskrit or

> English. A word when taken out of its context may punish us, by

> making us confused! Words are alive! Like Mantras! While discussing

> astrology, it is better to hold high the meaning that is relevant in

> that context. (i.e. in that Prakarana). If we are moving words out of

> there context, as a result we will start making out of context

> statements!!

> Nava Pranas, Indiryas, Manomaya kosa, Bhagavat Gita, Jeevathma,

> Paramatma etc; and a whole lot of other things such as Bhava, Nava

> Rasa what what I am seeing in this discussion!!! Each of those

> subjects are huge enough to cover many books! And we are using them,

> here in discussing bhava (House) system used in astrology - "out of

> context"!!! (There could be many who may feel that this stament is

> wrong - to them my appologies. I am just sharing my openion)

> It is not important that you are winning an argument or not, but

> what is important is "to be with the truth and enjoy it". One should

> limit his arguments, If he is able to safeguard the truth. Extending

> the arguments further, may lead to arguments for the sake of

> arguments – which is a pit fall.

> May be i am telling all these out of my limited knowledge. Then

> my apologies. If you find the above two suggestions useful, I would

> be pleased, since, then I know that I have a friend who understands

> me.

> Love,

> Sreenadh

>

>

> vedic astrology, "Bharat Hindu Astrology"

> <hinduastrology@> wrote:

> >

> > Namaskaar Sri Pradeep

> >

> > Here is the full explanation:

> >

> > Bhagwan Krishna starts this chapter on his own, to speak of the

> Atma.

> >

> > Before this chapter Sri Krishna talks about the nature of Samsara

> to help

> > Arjuna develop dispassion. However, there is a dilemma here - we

> must have

> > dispassion to appreciate that there is no moksha in samsara, and,

> we must

> > understand that there is no moksha in samsara in order to have

> dispassion.

> > To resolve the same, and help Arjuna develop dispassion, Bhagwan is

> > presenting essentials of Samsara. The definition of samsara is -

> Erroneous

> > knowledge about Reality, which is caused by the ignorance of

> OneSelf.

> >

> > Here Bhagwan Krishna deals with the Self, sarvatatma, jagat -the

> world, jive

> > - the root cause. And reveals later that what is eater, the one who

> eats,

> > etc. are all nothing but Paramatma. This chapter - "Yoga of the

> whole

> > Person" is a very important chapter of Srimad Bhagavad Gita.

> Traditionally,

> > in ashrama across the country, it is chanted before taking meals.

> >

> > So in the first verse, Bhagwan Krishna likens the samsara to a tree

> and

> > explains through the verse 5, how one can understand One's Real

> Self. In

> > Verse 6, he tells the following:

> >

> > na tadhasayate suryo na sasanko na pavakah

> > yadgatva na nivartante taddhama paramam mama

> >

> > Neither the sun, moon or fire illumine that which, having gone to,

> they do

> > not return. That is my limitless abode.

> >

> > Sun, Moon and Fire is illumined by Brahman. They cannot illumine

> the Brahman

> > itself. It is like shinning a torch to Sun. Therefore, the Self

> effulgent

> > Brahman abode is limitless. When it is called Limitless, it does

> not have

> > parts. Part is defined by something that isn't a part. Plus part has

> > boundaries, which means you are talking of it in space. When

> Brahman is

> > beyond space and time, no part can be there. So there is no amsha

> in Brahman

> > and for Consciousness we do not need any other entity to illumine

> it.

> > Consciousness is Self effulgent. It illumines the Sun too.

> >

> > In this verse, "the going" means understanding of the Self as the

> Lord.

> > There is no other going. There is no place where Brahman is not, so

> there is

> > no going!!!

> >

> > Brahman is Limitless as no concept of space and time shall apply to

> it.

> > Having undertood, this verse, the Lord continues to the next one -

> This is

> > also Sri Pradeep's query-

> >

> > "mamaivamso jivaloke jivabhutah sanatanah

> > manahsasthan indriyani parkritshani karsati""

> >

> > In the individual's world, a part of me alone becoming the eternal

> > individual, draws to itself the sense organs that have as their

> sixth, the

> > mind, which abide in the material cause, prakriti.

> >

> > Amsa means fraction. The one who has become a jiva, is like a part

> of

> > bhagavan. The meaning is Jiva is not some other object which is not

> Brahman.

> > The Lord is removing the doubt of the individual, that is jivatma is

> > separate from Brahman and of some other material than Brahman!

> > Understand this with its preceding verse.

> >

> > Jivaloka is wht is experienced by a given Jiva. It is not the world

> of jivas

> > but the world of a Jiva. In the world, he understands himself as

> the karta

> > and as an experiencer, bokta, with reference to a given body. This

> is

> > likened in the Upanishad to reflection of the sun in many buckets

> of water.

> > Can many reflections be called many Atmas? The light of the Atma

> being

> > reflected in your mind, or my mind, or Sri Sreenadh's mind, is not

> > different. It is the same Atman. The same Sun.

> >

> > Now, reflection is totally dependent upon the Sun but Sun is not

> dependent

> > for its existence on the bucket or the reflection. (Currently the

> example is

> > of Bucket as the physical sarira, and water in it as the mind - do

> not

> > extend it to mean that mind is water and sthoola sarira is bucket -

> see the

> > teaching) In the reflection, the totality of what is reflected is

> seen. You

> > do not see a mere part of it. Therefore you see time and space as

> limitless

> > as their base is limitless Brahman. Yet you project certain

> qualities on

> > them, and that is the mithya.

> >

> > Now again, I am explaining - Amsha if it is there is subject to

> time, space

> > and causation. In other words, it can be destroyed. And that which

> is built

> > of many amshas is also subject to change. Change can occur only in

> time and

> > space. Brahman =Atman, is beyond time and space. Therefore, it

> cannot be

> > amsha of the parmatma. Jivatma, therefore, refers to the individual

> > perception and Lord is clearing that individual perception.

> >

> > Since it is the avidya of Brahman,that is causing this judgment,

> Sri Krishna

> > has already explained that in Chapter 13, that only through

> ignorance that

> > you can say Atma is limited.

> >

> > Read the earlier verse again - How do they do not come back after

> having

> > gone to Bhagavan? They are not separate from him at any time and

> were

> > seemingly a part of him until they realized they were the whole.

> When the

> > ignorance is gone, the product jivatma is also gone. The concept is

> gone!

> >

> > Om poornamadah poornamidam poornaatpoornamudachyate, Poornasya

> > poornamaadaaya poornamevaavashishyate*. Om* shaantih shaantih

> shaantih!

> >

> > References are many for the above, but you may also study:

> >

> > Chapter 13.2

> > ksetrajnam capi mam viddhi saraksetresu bharata

> > ksetraksetrajnaanam yattajjnanam matam mama

> >

> > O Descendant of Bharata, Arjuna, and also may you know me as the

> knower of

> > the body in all the bodies. That which is knowledge of the body and

> the

> > knower of the body, is knowledge. This is my vision.

> >

> > Lord is not just kshetrjna in one given body but in all, sarva-

> khetresu.

> >

> >

> > You have also mentioned Chapter 6 verse 15

> >

> > yunjannevam sadatmanam yogi niyatamanasah

> > santim nirvanaparamaam matsamsthamadhigacchati

> >

> > Always connecting the mind in this manner, the meditator, the one

> whose mind

> > is mastered gains peace, the absorption in Me that is liberation

> >

> > Here Sri Krishna is explaining the ultimate end to be discovered as

> a result

> > of Dhyanayoga. And how does one connect the mind to the Svarupa ot

> Atma?

> > Through contemplative words one can connect mind to Atma. We are

> currently

> > doing it! Like the mind can appreciate time though it does not have

> an

> > objectified reality, similarly the mind can have dhyana through

> word (word

> > is a sound and part of creation, yet one can have dhyana for the

> word and

> > the silence thereafter). Many such upasana techniques are given in

> the

> > Upanishads.

> >

> > To have such a mind, is like absorbed in the Atma. This is like

> saying mind

> > is absorbed in an interesting book. So when mind is absorbed in the

> Atman,

> > the Guru's sayings, speech or the book's words are absorbed by the

> person.

> > The Person can absorb this knowledge and knowledge brings peace.

> >

> > Such a person understands that Shantih is Atma bodha, which is not

> dependent

> > upon the mind. Remember the reflection is dependent upon the Sun

> and not the

> > opposite. One can see mind also as an object. It dissociates the

> mind to any

> > sorrow, etc. This is a different shanti than the one induced by

> anaesthetics

> > and when mind gets a repreive between two agitated states. This is

> a shantih

> > because dependence upon the mind is not there for shantih.

> >

> > Here, this shantih is the very nature of Atman and that is the

> aborption in

> > Me, which is liberation from ashanti (a superimosition upon Atma

> due to

> > avidya).

> >

> > Please remember, in Chapter 6, Bhagwan is talking about conditions

> that make

> > a life of contemplation possible.

> >

> > Having said the above, I do not want this subject going into a

> explanation

> > of the entire bhagavad Gita. You are most welcome to study it.

> >

> >

> > It is very clear, that wrong understanding of the above verses have

> led you

> > to believe in Amsha theory. If you see our discussion right from the

> > beginning - I have commented on all of your contentions and given

> logical

> > and sastra reasons. You have avoided most of my questions or have

> given

> > statments such - All answers in Bhagavad Gita.So many questions

> such as

> > anandamaya kosha and all the questions of Kshetam remain unanswered.

> > Furthermore, you yourself have said that you do not claim to

> understand

> > these texts. I understand you and do not hold it against you in

> this pure

> > and pious discussion.

> >

> > My only request to you is - Do not hold the assumption - that

> vargas cannot

> > be used independently and then, try to prove the same using

> everything that

> > comes around.

> >

> > Coming to other Gurus and learned Scholars: You can choose to

> believe in

> > them, that is the choice rested in you by the Lord. How can I

> comment on

> > whom you should associate with or not?

> >

> > Chandrashekhar ji has always told,''If you sincerely look for

> Knowledge

> > you will find it''.

> >

> > Only a sincere person finds knowledge. This I have said so many

> times too.

> > How is it relevant here?

> >

> > Couple of years back,i had requested Ramanarayanan ji for some books

> > ''The books you are looking for are already within you,You have to

> > sharpen .....''.Ramanarayanan ji has guided whenever i was in need.I

> > have expressed my concerns and differences regrading varga bhavas

> too.

> >

> > I will already explained in a separate discussion that to find an

> internal

> > Guru, one needs and external Guru. Please understand - Vedanta is a

> pramana

> > - not a book!! So Sri Ramanarayan, a pious person, should not be

> brought in

> > this discussion.

> >

> > When i had told about my lack of knoweldge in Sanskrit - Sri

> > Chandrahari said ''Fix your mind on Shiva and recite OM NAMA

> > SHIVAYA,everything will come automatically,no need to study

> anything''

> >

> > Fixation of mind is dhyana Yoga, and that it will help in

> contemplation. I

> > cannot understand why one does not need to study? Who told you who

> is Shiva?

> > A word - an understanding - a book? What is Vedanta for? Such loose

> > statements I do not appreciate, even if coming from someone you

> respect.

> >

> > Sreenadh ji is well read in classics and has not found a single

> > reference supporting seperate bhavas for amshas.

> >

> > Now you are changing the subject to disconnection of Astrology from

> the

> > principles given in the Veda. You are saying that since Sri

> Sreenadh, who is

> > well versed in classics (I am assuming they are astrological

> classics as

> > Vedas are not called classics), the amshas cannot exist. There are

> about

> > 10-15 persons who also well read in classics, say that Amshas

> should be

> > used. This becomes a judgmental thing and without basis.

> >

> > We started with a fine discussion and research in explaining the

> Vedanta and

> > its possible connection with the amshas. How do the above people

> come in?

> >

> > Indriyas and Navapranas

> > do not have any lagna or Bhavas,But they infleuence Lagna and

> dwadasha

> > bhavas.I do not know why it is so difficult to understand!!!

> >

> > You have been saying that, but no reference that you have given, is

> > understood to have said this. You only said Bhava is the Kshetra,

> so why

> > can't manomaya kosha and prana maya kosha have a kshetra?

> >

> > Having said that, I remain undecided on how to use the divisional

> charts but

> > certain they can be used.

> >

> > People are free to choose but I cannot be arrogant enought to say

> that the

> > possibility does not exist. This can only be said - "Have you seen

> that

> > barren woman's son?" - This I say is impossible!

> >

> > Thanks and Regards

> > Bharat

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > On 2/23/06, Bharat Hindu Astrology <hinduastrology@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Namaskaar Sri Pradeep

> > >

> > > The verses that you have quoted, need proper explanation with

> references.

> > > The verse mentioning Amsha is to explain that the consciousness

> that the

> > > individual thinks as its own and separate from others, and

> therefore,

> > > separate from Brahman can mean - That there is a substance

> separate from

> > > Brahman existing. To refute the same Sri Krishna explains that the

> > > consciousness within is of as if an amsha of Brahman.

> > >

> > > This is a small sentence right now. Do not comment on it. I am

> preparing

> > > the full reply but it will take time. This verse has to be seen

> from

> > > explanations given in the 13th Chapter too. I think I will end up

> writing an

> > > exposition on Srimad Bhagavad Gita!

> > >

> > > Harih Aum Sri Gurubhyoh Namah, Harih Aum!

> > >

> > > Thanks and Regards

> > > Bharat

> > >

> > > On 2/23/06, vijayadas_pradeep < vijayadas_pradeep@> wrote:

> > >

> > > > Dear Bharat ji Namaskar

> > > >

> > > > Whether you have understood Upanishads or Gita is beyond my

> perception

> > > > and my job is not to judge that.What i have said is based on

> classical

> > > > shlokas.

> > > >

> > > > Mamaivamsho Jeevaloke

> > > > Jeeva Bhootha Sanathana

> > > > Mana shashtaneendriyaani

> > > > Prakrithi sthani Karshathi

> > > >

> > > > Bhagavad Gita,Chapter 15,Purushottama Yoga,Shloka 7.

> > > >

> > > > My own Sanathana AMSHA manifests as Jeeva(jeevatma) in

> jeevaloka and

> > > > attracts the six indriyas including Manas(5 jnanendriyas plus

> > > > Manas),situated in Prakrithi.Please note the word AMSHA.

> > > >

> > > > Yujnannevam Sadathmanam

> > > > Yogee Niyatha Manasa

> > > > Shanthim Nirvana Paramam

> > > > Malsamstham adhi gachathi.(Sixth chapter Dhyanayoga,shloka 15).

> > > >

> > > > The yogi who has controlled the mind and the one who has made

> the mind

> > > > join with atma, will attain the height of shanthi in me.

> > > >

> > > > Now let us take

> > > > AHAM BRAHMASMI - I AM BRAHMAN OR I AM HIM.They are one and the

> same,but

> > > > how?

> > > > What is the difference between spark(amsha) and Sun(Whole);Drop

> (amsha)

> > > > and Ocean(Whole)?

> > > > The drop is no different from Ocean,but all the drops

> collectively forms

> > > > the Ocean.Spark is no different from the Sun but all the sparks

> together

> > > > forms the Sun.

> > > > They are the same but they together constitute HIM.HE is in

> all,but all

> > > > together it is HIM.This is the difference between Jivatma and

> > > > Paramatma.It is difficult to express in words.Collective or

> Holistic

> > > > feeling is Supreme consciousness.

> > > >

> > > > Joining of Mind and Atma and attainment of Bhava has to be

> experienced

> > > > through music.It cannot be expressed in words.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks a lot for offering books and help.

> > > >

> > > > Chandrashekhar ji has always told,''If you sincerely look for

> Knowledge

> > > > you will find it''.

> > > >

> > > > Couple of years back,i had requested Ramanarayanan ji for some

> books

> > > > ''The books you are looking for are already within you,You have

> to

> > > > sharpen .....''.Ramanarayanan ji has guided whenever i was in

> need.I

> > > > have expressed my concerns and differences regrading varga

> bhavas too.

> > > >

> > > > When i had told about my lack of knoweldge in Sanskrit - Sri

> > > > Chandrahari said ''Fix your mind on Shiva and recite OM NAMA

> > > > SHIVAYA,everything will come automatically,no need to study

> anything''

> > > >

> > > > Sreenadh ji is well read in classics and has not found a single

> > > > reference supporting seperate bhavas for amshas.Indriyas and

> Navapranas

> > > > do not have any lagna or Bhavas,But they infleuence Lagna and

> dwadasha

> > > > bhavas.I do not know why it is so difficult to understand!!!

> > > >

> > > > I honestly agree that i have read very few books,no

> upanishads,no

> > > > vedas,and very few jyotish books.In that way i may be a pauper

> as

> > > > compared to you.But i trust the words of above Gurusthaneeyas.I

> feel the

> > > > biggest treasure of knoweldge is within us and not in any

> books.Ever

> > > > since i have been meeting AMRITANANDA MAYI AMMA,i feel no

> insecurity at

> > > > all.There is no bigger Yogi and Guru than Parama Shiva.

> > > >

> > > > Let us travel together and learn from each other.Let the

> discretion

> > > > helps us in seperating good and bad.Listen to everyone,and take

> the

> > > > good.Neither you are, nor i am, a challenger.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks

> > > > Pradee

> > > > vedic astrology, "Bharat Hindu Astrology"

> > > > <hinduastrology@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Namaskaar Sri Pradeep

> > > > >

> > > > > AUM!

> > > > >

> > > > > All the answers for your queries,are in Bhagawat Gita.When

> Lord

> > > > Krishna

> > > > > HIMSELF has explained them in detail,i do not think any one

> has to

> > > > > elaborate further.

> > > > >

> > > > > If I may say so, the query was yours. I used the Upanishads

> to explain

> > > > the

> > > > > same. Bhagavad Gita is one of the finest expositions on the

> Upanishads

> > > > and

> > > > > it does not alter the saying of the Upanishad.

> > > > >

> > > > > Bhagwan has explained to Arjuna on how to fix ones mind on

> HIM.What i

> > > > > have told is nothing more.We have to understand the

> difference between

> > > > > jivatma and Paramatma here.We are talking about jivatma,which

> is a

> > > > spark

> > > > > of the very Paramatma.

> > > > > Is the drop of water in an ocean separate from the ocean?

> When inside

> > > > the

> > > > > Ocean do you see water everywhere or do you see droplets of

> water

> > > > > separately? When we talk on infinite lord, do you see any

> parts in it?

> > > > When

> > > > > you see infinite space - can you divide it? The room space,

> wall

> > > > space,

> > > > > garden space, city space is after all space. Jivatma does not

> refer to

> > > > a

> > > > > separate Atma but the notion of it in the mind. Please this

> is the

> > > > > difference.

> > > > >

> > > > > Finally mind will dissolve and just the Atma

> > > > > remains which will unite jivatma and Paramtma.

> > > > > If such was the case, then, every night in deep sleep they

> would unite

> > > > as

> > > > > mind is not there. Read Mandukya Upanishad with Sri Gaupada's

> Karika.

> > > > The

> > > > > notion dissolving is not the mind dissolving. Do trees have

> to vanish

> > > > for me

> > > > > to see Atman? Did Ramakrishna Paramhansa not see people

> around him?

> > > > >

> > > > > Budhi is the mediator here.Please don't get distracted by

> various

> > > > > translations of Gita.Just think how we are breaking sheaths

> one by one

> > > > and

> > > > > joining HIM.This is dissolving of mind in Atma - total

> dissolution is

> > > > > assimilation.

> > > > > I am not going by translations of Srimad Bhagavat Gita. I am

> going by

> > > > the

> > > > > teachings of the Upanishad. I have given many references of

> the same.

> > > > Kindly

> > > > > do not reject those teachings are mere interpretations of

> translators!

> > > > The

> > > > > teachings have been given with complete logic and reasoning.

> > > > >

> > > > > Breaking sheaths amount to saying that pranas do not function

> in a

> > > > Jeevan

> > > > > Mukta. This statement is totally against the Upanishads.

> Kindly give

> > > > > reference either in the Upanishads or the Bhagavad Gita.

> > > > >

> > > > > Atma knows everything as it is part of the Pure Bodha or

> > > > > Consciousness.Bhava is thus the joining of Atma and Manas.

> > > > > Look at the contradiction - If you say Atma is a part of

> > > > Consciousness, then

> > > > > it would be perishable. As it is limited and not infinite.

> You are

> > > > going

> > > > > against the very basis of Mahavakya - Atman is Brahman.

> > > > >

> > > > > Pradeep, please do not take in the wrong manner, but it would

> do you

> > > > good if

> > > > > you study the above subjects carefully under guidance of a

> Guru. I can

> > > > > suggest you some books to start with, to make things easier.

> It is

> > > > these

> > > > > errors that are making you question again and again.

> > > > >

> > > > > If you feel I do not understand (even intellectually) the

> Upanishads

> > > > or the

> > > > > Bhagavad Gita, then, the discussion should stop here.

> However, if you

> > > > > understand that I know something, then you can ask n number of

> > > > questions. I

> > > > > will only initiate this learning process if you approach as a

> learner

> > > > and

> > > > > not as a challenger.

> > > > >

> > > > > A musician can sing based on lower intellectual analysis or

> higher

> > > > > influence.When it is lower,he concentrates or just repeats the

> > > > > techniques as taught.But in the higher state he forgets mind

> and music

> > > > > comes from Atma.It will come from within.Bhava can result

> only with

> > > > > that.

> > > > > When one sings because it comes naturally, then it is the

> highest

> > > > form. The

> > > > > desire for appreciation, etc is absent in such a case. In

> doing so,

> > > > why do

> > > > > you personalize Atman as that of a musician just because he

> has broken

> > > > > identification from the mind. This example does not in any

> case prove

> > > > that

> > > > > there are separate Atmans floating around.

> > > > >

> > > > > Bhava is thus the joining of Atma and Manas.Musician was

> > > > > just an example.Think of the act smile.We can smile just with

> lip

> > > > > movement or lip plus chin,cheeks,facial muscles etc.But the

> smile is

> > > > not

> > > > > having bhava if it not coming from within.Then there is a

> > > > > confluence.

> > > > > In the above case, as the limitedness of Manas is

> disassociated with,

> > > > > therefore the Bhava comes, not because of the joining of the

> two! How

> > > > can an

> > > > > Omnipresent join or remove from anything?

> > > > > First verse of Isa Upanishad - All that is there, is verily

> the Lord!

> > > > > Therefore, the concept of Jivatman is a notion. Do not build

> the

> > > > entire

> > > > > theory of bhava on a false notion. This is serious confusion

> and you

> > > > must

> > > > > talk to a Siddha Guru regarding the same.

> > > > >

> > > > > There is a frequent example in the Upanishads about the rope

> and the

> > > > snake.

> > > > > This example states that if in a dark corner a rope lies and

> if you

> > > > see it

> > > > > as a snake, then, your mind is superimposing the idea of the

> snake

> > > > because

> > > > > the base is rope. This is because the imaginary snake borrows

> shape of

> > > > the

> > > > > real rope. Here snake is Maya and rope is Brahman. The idea

> is space

> > > > and

> > > > > time are endless because Brahman is, so space and time seem

> that way.

> > > > This

> > > > > example does not mean that Brahman is Rope!

> > > > >

> > > > > You have taken two examples, that of Chariot and of Jeevatman

> and

> > > > converted

> > > > > them into something like the above. To help you understand,

> if you

> > > > give me

> > > > > the references of the texts, I'll try and explain to the best

> of my

> > > > > abilities.

> > > > >

> > > > > Bhava is a kshetra of the Sthoola Sarira if you take Rashi

> chart as

> > > > the

> > > > > Sthoola Sarira. If you take it as a sum total of all koshas,

> then, we

> > > > have a

> > > > > different discussion at hand.

> > > > >

> > > > > Again, in your analysis you have not touched upon the

> anandamaya kosha

> > > > and

> > > > > its kshetram.

> > > > >

> > > > > This is why, we chant Om sahana vavatu before every class.

> Often, the

> > > > > discussion can get heated as the subject matter is Self.

> Noone takes

> > > > kindly

> > > > > to breaking of self imposed notions.

> > > > >

> > > > > Do let me know if you want to systematically study the texts.

> I can

> > > > provide

> > > > > you with the basic list before going on to the most powerful

> Texts.

> > > > >

> > > > > Harih Aum

> > > > > Sri Gurubhyo Namah

> > > > > Hari Aum

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks and Regards

> > > > > Bharat

> > > > >

> > > > > Hari Aum Tat Sat

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > On 2/22/06, vijayadas_pradeep vijayadas_pradeep@ wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dear Bharat ji Namaskar

> > > > > >

> > > > > > All the answers for your queries,are in Bhagawat Gita.When

> Lord

> > > > Krishna

> > > > > > HIMSELF has explained them in detail,i do not think any one

> has to

> > > > > > elaborate further.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Bhagwan has explained to Arjuna on how to fix ones mind on

> HIM.What

> > > > i

> > > > > > have told is nothing more.We have to understand the

> difference

> > > > between

> > > > > > jivatma and Paramatma here.We are talking about

> jivatma,which is a

> > > > spark

> > > > > > of the very Paramatma.Finally mind will dissolve and just

> the Atma

> > > > > > remains which will unite jivatma and Paramtma.Budhi is the

> mediator

> > > > > > here.Please don't get distracted by various translations of

> > > > Gita.Just

> > > > > > think how we are breaking sheaths one by one and joining

> HIM.This is

> > > > > > dissolving of mind in Atma - total dissolution is

> assimilation.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > There is a purpose for the creation of mind.Without it

> the ''game''

> > > > is

> > > > > > not possible.

> > > > > > Thus

> Shiva/Shakthi,Purusha/Prakrithi,Atma/Manas,Surya/Chandra etc

> > > > have

> > > > > > Paraspara Ashrayatwa or mutual dependency.It is all the

> same.When we

> > > > say

> > > > > > ''wherever mind is going'' - it is not a physical

> displacement.It is

> > > > > > Manovyapara.Atma is the spark of HIM within us.It is just

> sitting as

> > > > an

> > > > > > observer,and goes wherever the mind takes him,and remains

> > > > > > unaffected.Budhi is the discriminator,who can decide what

> is wriong

> > > > and

> > > > > > what is right.When Budhi is refined,or when the dust and

> impurities

> > > > are

> > > > > > removed,Budhi will act as it is supoosed to.Indriyas and

> Vishaya

> > > > Sukhas

> > > > > > can cloud Budhi.Once these are tamed,Manas Joins Budhi and

> then

> > > > finally

> > > > > > it joins Atma.Total dissolution.Bhagavan has made this

> crystal

> > > > clear.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > A musician can sing based on lower intellectual analysis or

> higher

> > > > > > influence.When it is lower,he concentrates or just repeats

> the

> > > > > > techniques as taught.But in the higher state he forgets

> mind and

> > > > music

> > > > > > comes from Atma.It will come from within.Bhava can result

> only with

> > > > > > that.Atma knows everything as it is part of the Pure Bodha

> or

> > > > > > Consciousness.Bhava is thus the joining of Atma and

> Manas.Musician

> > > > was

> > > > > > just an example.Think of the act smile.We can smile just

> with lip

> > > > > > movement or lip plus chin,cheeks,facial muscles etc.But the

> smile is

> > > > not

> > > > > > having bhava if it not coming from within.Then there is a

> > > > > > confluence.Word or Vak is supreme.Nada is Supreme.Hence

> musical

> > > > > > expressions can make us feel Bhava or unison with

> HIM,atleast for a

> > > > few

> > > > > > seconds,when striving for perfection.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Once the concept of Bhava is clear,we can discuss

> astrological

> > > > vargas.i

> > > > > > am pretty sure that you have enough intelligence to

> understand the

> > > > > > same.Whole universe is permeated with his spark.The

> colelctive

> > > > feeling

> > > > > > of all these is Supreme Bodha.In Jyotisha one unison of

> Atma and

> > > > Manas

> > > > > > is one Bhava.Indriyas,Budhi,Prana etc are facilitators.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Kind Regds

> > > > > > Pradeep

> > > > > >

> > > > > > vedic astrology, "Bharat Hindu

> Astrology"

> > > > > > hinduastrology@ wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Namaskaar Sri Pradeep

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Om Astoma Sad Gamaya.

> > > > > > > Tamasoma Jyothir Gamaya.

> > > > > > > Mrityorma Amritam Gamaya.

> > > > > > > Om Shantih! Shantih! Shantih!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Here I go again:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > regarding Bhagawan Krishna & Arjuna.It will clear all our

> > > > doubts.Think

> > > > > > > of soul as jivatma in the current context,sitting inside

> the

> > > > > > > chariot.What is the meaning of charioteer.It is

> > > > intelligence.krishna

> > > > > > had

> > > > > > > taken over the control of intelligence from Arjuna(false

> > > > > > > identification).Horses are Indriyas.The reins represent

> operations

> > > > of

> > > > > > > the mind.If the charioteer does not apply control,the

> horses may

> > > > run

> > > > > > > wherever they want.Also if reins(mind) are left alone

> after an

> > > > initial

> > > > > > > operation,the horses will keep on running as per the

> initial

> > > > > > > instruction.Intelligence corresponds with indriyas through

> > > > > > > manas.Intelligence can sometimes be clouded and can act

> based on

> > > > > > > senses.Thus withdrawal of senses,can result in true

> > > > intelligence,if it

> > > > > > > is weak as per jataka. Thus chariot is sthoola

> shareera.but

> > > > Chariot

> > > > > > has no

> > > > > > > life or movement if it is devoid of the above said

> entities

> > > > > > -collectively

> > > > > > > called as Sookshma

> > > > > > > shareera.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This is a well known analogy and till now I agree. I

> believe you

> > > > are

> > > > > > taking

> > > > > > > the lagna chart as the sthoola Sarira (in your comments

> below)

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Atma has no desire.It is upto 'Us' to go back to our real

> Us-

> > > > > > > ''Atma''.But Atma and Manas do have Paraspara

> ashrayatwa.Becasue

> > > > atma

> > > > > > > joins or follows manas, wherever he is taking,as an

> > > > observer.(Think of

> > > > > > > the soul in the chariot moving along with the movement of

> chariot

> > > > > > which

> > > > > > > is according to the direction from manas on to the

> > > > horses(indriyas)).

> > > > > > > Now you have extended the example. This is a common

> mistake for

> > > > those

> > > > > > > studying Vedanta. The analogy of the chariot = Sharira,

> Arjuna

> > > > being

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > Jivatma and Krishna meaning identification with the Real

> self is

> > > > okay.

> > > > > > It is

> > > > > > > only to explain the individual and show how the senses

> can destroy

> > > > a

> > > > > > person

> > > > > > > by misleading him. It also shows with the knowledge of

> the Self,

> > > > the

> > > > > > > indriyas function but in their maryada.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Do not go to the level of mind taking Atma for a ride.

> This will

> > > > > > overturn

> > > > > > > almost all of the Upanishadic statments. As Atma is

> omnipresent,

> > > > there

> > > > > > is

> > > > > > > nowhere where it is not. Therefore, wherever the mind

> goes, it

> > > > there

> > > > > > > already. It may seem to the mind that Atma is travelling

> with it,

> > > > but

> > > > > > then,

> > > > > > > that is the Maya!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > A musician can sing with sublime bhava upon, forgetting of

> > > > mind.Manas

> > > > > > > dissolving in Atma is complete Bhava. In astrology

> strength of Sun

> > > > > > gives

> > > > > > > Atma bala and moon,manobala.Due to Paraspara

> aashrayatwa,strength

> > > > of

> > > > > > one

> > > > > > > entity will result in the strength of the other.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Sun gives atma bala not Atma. How is the bala different?

> The light

> > > > of

> > > > > > > consciousness when referred to in an individual is called

> > > > conditioned

> > > > > > > consciousness. It enlivens the ego thought and the mind.

> This is

> > > > the

> > > > > > Atma

> > > > > > > bala and not the bala of Atman that we are referring to

> above. The

> > > > > > Atman has

> > > > > > > nothing to take from manobala. It is free already and it

> is

> > > > > > omnipotent.

> > > > > > > Therefore, the Atma bala can only refer to the light or

> brilliance

> > > > of

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > consciousness shining through Sun in our charts that

> enlivens the

> > > > > > > individual. As Sun is a graha, it binds through

> conditioning and

> > > > > > feeling

> > > > > > > that this consciousness is individual! This is the

> binding nature

> > > > of

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > Sun.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Manas never dissolves into the Atman. Manas is never

> there for the

> > > > > > Atman,

> > > > > > > therefore there is no dissolving back. This the

> limitation of any

> > > > > > language

> > > > > > > and therefore, such words are used. The thoughts are born

> out of a

> > > > > > want for

> > > > > > > fulfillment of the self, as one cannot accept limitation

> (this is

> > > > due

> > > > > > to the

> > > > > > > fact that one's nature is Satyam Jnanam Anantam). This

> desire

> > > > moves to

> > > > > > > fulfill itself and be complete. When such a notion is

> finished and

> > > > > > Brahma

> > > > > > > Vidya dawns, there is no more running. Only residual

> prarabdha

> > > > > > functions.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > When a musician sings, he dissociates his ego and finds

> love and

> > > > > > devotion.

> > > > > > > This is possible not only for a musician but for almost

> everyone

> > > > on

> > > > > > this

> > > > > > > forum.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I am sorry I have to discuss the above words over the

> internet.

> > > > > > Upanishads

> > > > > > > should be studied with reverence and not like this.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > There are no multiple charts.As the

> > > > > > > brain cannot hold all the relationships a planet is

> having with 12

> > > > > > > Rashis,we seperate each kind of relationship(sthoola

> sookshma

> > > > > > sambandha)

> > > > > > > as a seperate entity(chart).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Sthoola Sookshma Sambanda I understand very well and

> agree. Now

> > > > when

> > > > > > we say

> > > > > > > Sookshma, what do we mean? Sookshma is the one that is

> free from

> > > > the

> > > > > > > sthoola. So pranamaya kosha is independent and free of

> sthoolamaya

> > > > > > kosha. If

> > > > > > > your heart is beating it is because pranas are

> functioning on

> > > > their

> > > > > > own. No

> > > > > > > sambandha is required. If in the prana chart (suppose we

> can

> > > > recognize

> > > > > > which

> > > > > > > one it is), if we see problems and malefics, we can find

> out the

> > > > root

> > > > > > of

> > > > > > > heart problem. No need for the D1 chart! (You'd probably

> call me

> > > > mad

> > > > > > now,

> > > > > > > but I am just showing you that the possibility exist)

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Rasi is the Sthoola Sarira and as "Yat Pinde Tat

> Brahmande"

> > > > principle

> > > > > > > applies so Rasi is also the external to Sthoola Sarira.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Rashi the structure(chariot) is Sthoolashareera and one

> rashi is

> > > > same

> > > > > > as one

> > > > > > > bhava, though with a small conceptual difference.Rashi

> needs

> > > > prana(got

> > > > > > > through planets,which in turn is from soorya) and other

> sookshama

> > > > > > shareera

> > > > > > > entities for functioning.Think of Rashi as the chariot

> along with

> > > > > > > Krishna,Arjuna,Horses,reins etc,while thinking of Bhavas.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I agree that Rashi and Bhava are same. The 2nd statement

> is a huge

> > > > > > > assumption. The Sthoola Sarira needs Prana true but can

> the

> > > > Sthoola

> > > > > > Sarira

> > > > > > > show the functioning of the Prana? The Prana are

> independent of

> > > > the

> > > > > > Sthoola

> > > > > > > Sarira so Sthoola Sarira shall show the result and Prana

> is the

> > > > cause.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Rashi can only show the result of the Prana on Sthoola

> Sarira and

> > > > not

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > cause. It will not show which Prana isn't functioning and

> why. And

> > > > > > what

> > > > > > > about the interrelationships between the Mind and the

> Pranas. The

> > > > > > Sthoola

> > > > > > > Sarira shall show nothing of it.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Another exercise here:

> > > > > > > If we have Sun as the conditioned consciousness (not the

> Atman),

> > > > Moon

> > > > > > as the

> > > > > > > mind, Jupiter as the values and memory, Mercury as the

> Buddhi, can

> > > > you

> > > > > > > divide the other planets into their functions of Pranas?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > One planet has many roles(It is like a variable).When we

> see it

> > > > from a

> > > > > > > 30 degree span it relates to Kshethra.When we see it from

> a 3.2

> > > > degree

> > > > > > > span,it is relating to navamshas or pranas.Think like

> this - When

> > > > we

> > > > > > see

> > > > > > > from a sthoola position Krishna is just a charioteer.But

> when we

> > > > see

> > > > > > > from a sookshma perspective,Krishna is intelligence.But

> it is the

> > > > same

> > > > > > > Krishna sitting in the same Chariot.So are

> planets.Instead of

> > > > seeing

> > > > > > > Krishna as an ''Intelligent Charioteer'' in the same

> Chariot ,we

> > > > are

> > > > > > > trying to bring in another chariot(another chart). In

> reality

> > > > there

> > > > > > are

> > > > > > > only 12 Bhavas (aadheya tattwam) and 12 Rashis(Aadhara

> tattwa) and

> > > > 9

> > > > > > > planetary entities.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If we take 30 degree as Kshetra, then how do 3.2 degree

> become the

> > > > > > prana. In

> > > > > > > one sentence you are proving the sameness of Kshetra (the

> > > > environment)

> > > > > > with

> > > > > > > the Prana (the planet itself). The Planet do not define

> the

> > > > Kshetra,

> > > > > > it is

> > > > > > > the Bhava that defines the Kshetra. Similarly 3.2 degree

> is a

> > > > Kshetra

> > > > > > for

> > > > > > > the Prana (if Navamsa shows Prana), following that logic.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The Kshetra of the Prana and the Manas is not another

> chariot. It

> > > > is

> > > > > > evident

> > > > > > > from above. The Kshetra of the Prana and Manas prevades

> the

> > > > chariot

> > > > > > and is

> > > > > > > much bigger. The Upanishad is very clear about the same.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > For the Sthoola Sarira, there are only 12 bhavas of 30

> degrees.

> > > > Can

> > > > > > you say

> > > > > > > the same for Pranas and Manas? From the view of Manas

> there is a

> > > > > > different

> > > > > > > world, for example, Swapna world has nothing to do with

> Sthoola

> > > > > > Sarira,

> > > > > > > where will it go. Where is its Kshetram? and where will

> Anandmaya

> > > > > > Kosha go

> > > > > > > and its Kshetram of Deep Sleep.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You can never take a group of trimshamshas and analyze

> them as

> > > > > > > bhavas.They are just indriyas,alone.Indriyas cannot act in

> > > > > > isolation,but

> > > > > > > only in relation with manas - which is in turn is part of

> > > > > > > mind(manas,chitta,budhi,ahamkara).You have to study them

> in

> > > > relation

> > > > > > to

> > > > > > > other entities.

> > > > > > > Would the above involve Sthoola Sarira D1 Chart? See ,

> this is

> > > > what I

> > > > > > have

> > > > > > > been trying to convey.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Same is the case with navamshas.Prana supplies vital

> > > > > > > energies.If a planet has joined debilitation,rashi through

> > > > navamsha

> > > > > > > sambandha -it is showing lack of a particular prana

> support.See

> > > > the

> > > > > > > bhava for which this planet is a lord and also its

> karakattwa to

> > > > study

> > > > > > > results.

> > > > > > > This I agree with. As I have already mentioned here we

> have no

> > > > > > contention.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Please try to understand the concept of Bhava.It is the

> unison of

> > > > Atma

> > > > > > > and Manas.Other constituents,are just

> facilitators.HOLISTIC

> > > > approach

> > > > > > > alone can take us towards Sakshathkaara.Hope you will

> give a

> > > > patient

> > > > > > > ear.

> > > > > > > Atma and Manas do not have a unison as it is explained

> above.

> > > > Atman is

> > > > > > > foreover free from the manas. The Bhava is not the unison

> between

> > > > the

> > > > > > two.

> > > > > > > The Kshetra is born out of the Nature. Here you need to

> understand

> > > > one

> > > > > > more

> > > > > > > thing:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The mind has many desires. They require a Kshetram. The

> Lord

> > > > provides

> > > > > > for

> > > > > > > such a Kshetram that is best for the resultant of these

> desires.

> > > > (This

> > > > > > is

> > > > > > > theory of Karma as propounded by the Veda, only to

> understand the

> > > > > > limitation

> > > > > > > of Karma). Therefore, Kshetram is not the mind. Atman

> prevades

> > > > both

> > > > > > the mind

> > > > > > > and the Kshetram and is unattached to both.

> > > > > > > Again, your words carry so many concepts that I will need

> many

> > > > days to

> > > > > > > explain everything in order. A systematic study of

> Vedanta is a

> > > > must

> > > > > > for

> > > > > > > every budding astrologer and unless that is done, there

> are bound

> > > > to

> > > > > > be

> > > > > > > assumptions that are harmful for the growth of

> understanding of

> > > > > > Astrology as

> > > > > > > a subject.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You will always have my patient ear and again I applaud

> you on a

> > > > > > healthy

> > > > > > > discussion.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Please think about the same and see how there exists a

> possibility

> > > > of

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > divisional charts being studied. Another suggestion is,

> in doing

> > > > so do

> > > > > > not

> > > > > > > worry about your earlier stance, etc. Those who think

> they know

> > > > how to

> > > > > > study

> > > > > > > divisional charts, may be doing it all wrong. So do not

> worry

> > > > about

> > > > > > them.

> > > > > > > Think in this new light.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Incidently today my elder daughter, who is almost six

> years old,

> > > > asked

> > > > > > me

> > > > > > > -"Papa, when you are asleep, do you know that time that

> you are

> > > > > > asleep?".

> > > > > > > Looks like it is my day of answering the most profound

> questions.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Thanks and Regards

> > > > > > > Bharat

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > On 2/21/06, vijayadas_pradeep vijayadas_pradeep@ wrote:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Dear Bharat ji Namaskar

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > There is no amount of hatred.If rosha is present,it is

> only for

> > > > a

> > > > > > higher

> > > > > > > > cause.With time and grace let us be able to learn and

> > > > control.Thanks

> > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > your kind words and let the almighty make our journey

> easier.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >>Whether the lagna chart is showing the Sthoola Sarira

> or it is

> > > > the

> > > > > > > > resultant Jiva? I would love >>to hear your views. It

> could be

> > > > both

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > each would raise a volley of questions. If it is the

> >>resultant

> > > > > > jiva,

> > > > > > > > then, why study the divisional chart >>at all. Why,

> even, go to

> > > > the

> > > > > > > > Navamsha? >>If it is the Sthoola Sarira, then, why use

> it too

> > > > much

> > > > > > as

> > > > > > > > most can be gathered >>through the >>divisional chart?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Good questions.

> > > > > > > > I would request you to re-read what you might have

> already read

> > > > > > > > regarding Bhagawan Krishna & Arjuna.It will clear all

> our

> > > > > > doubts.Think

> > > > > > > > of soul as jivatma in the current context,sitting

> inside the

> > > > > > > > chariot.What is the meaning of charioteer.It is

> > > > intelligence.krishna

> > > > > > had

> > > > > > > > taken over the control of intelligence from Arjuna(false

> > > > > > > > identification).Horses are Indriyas.The reins represent

> > > > operations

> > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > the mind.If the charioteer does not apply control,the

> horses may

> > > > run

> > > > > > > > wherever they want.Also if reins(mind) are left alone

> after an

> > > > > > initial

> > > > > > > > operation,the horses will keep on running as per the

> initial

> > > > > > > > instruction.Intelligence corresponds with indriyas

> through

> > > > > > > > manas.Intelligence can sometimes be clouded and can act

> based on

> > > > > > > > senses.Thus withdrawal of senses,can result in true

> > > > intelligence,if

> > > > > > it

> > > > > > > > is weak as per jataka.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Thus chariot is sthoola shareera.but Chariot has no

> life or

> > > > movement

> > > > > > if

> > > > > > > > it is devoid of the above said entities -collectively

> called as

> > > > > > Sookshma

> > > > > > > > shareera.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Atma has no desire.It is upto 'Us' to go back to our

> real Us-

> > > > > > > > ''Atma''.But Atma and Manas do have Paraspara

> ashrayatwa.Becasue

> > > > > > atma

> > > > > > > > joins or follows manas, wherever he is taking,as an

> > > > observer.(Think

> > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > the soul in the chariot moving along with the movement

> of

> > > > chariot

> > > > > > which

> > > > > > > > is according to the direction from manas on to the

> > > > > > horses(indriyas)).A

> > > > > > > > musician can sing with sublime bhava upon, forgetting of

> > > > mind.Manas

> > > > > > > > dissolving in Atma is complete Bhava. In astrology

> strength of

> > > > Sun

> > > > > > gives

> > > > > > > > Atma bala and moon,manobala.Due to Paraspara

> > > > aashrayatwa,strength of

> > > > > > one

> > > > > > > > entity will result in the strength of the other.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Thus coming back to your question -There are no multiple

> > > > charts.As

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > brain cannot hold all the relationships a planet is

> having with

> > > > 12

> > > > > > > > Rashis,we seperate each kind of relationship(sthoola

> sookshma

> > > > > > sambandha)

> > > > > > > > as a seperate entity(chart).Rashi the structure

> (chariot) is

> > > > > > > > Sthoolashareera and one rashi is same as one bhava,

> though with

> > > > a

> > > > > > small

> > > > > > > > conceptual difference.Rashi needs prana(got through

> > > > planets,which in

> > > > > > > > turn is from soorya) and other sookshama shareera

> entities for

> > > > > > > > functioning.Think of Rashi as the chariot along with

> > > > > > > > Krishna,Arjuna,Horses,reins etc,while thinking of

> Bhavas.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > One planet has many roles(It is like a variable).When

> we see it

> > > > from

> > > > > > a

> > > > > > > > 30 degree span it relates to Kshethra.When we see it

> from a 3.2

> > > > > > degree

> > > > > > > > span,it is relating to navamshas or pranas.Think like

> this -

> > > > When we

> > > > > > see

> > > > > > > > from a sthoola position Krishna is just a

> charioteer.But when we

> > > > see

> > > > > > > > from a sookshma perspective,Krishna is intelligence.But

> it is

> > > > the

> > > > > > same

> > > > > > > > Krishna sitting in the same Chariot.So are

> planets.Instead of

> > > > seeing

> > > > > > > > Krishna as an ''Intelligent Charioteer'' in the same

> Chariot ,we

> > > > are

> > > > > > > > trying to bring in another chariot(another chart). In

> reality

> > > > there

> > > > > > are

> > > > > > > > only 12 Bhavas (aadheya tattwam) and 12 Rashis(Aadhara

> tattwa)

> > > > and 9

> > > > > > > > planetary entities.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > You can never take a group of trimshamshas and analyze

> them as

> > > > > > > > bhavas.They are just indriyas,alone.Indriyas cannot act

> in

> > > > > > isolation,but

> > > > > > > > only in relation with manas - which is in turn is part

> of

> > > > > > > > mind(manas,chitta,budhi,ahamkara).You have to study

> them in

> > > > relation

> > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > other entities.Same is the case with navamshas.Prana

> supplies

> > > > vital

> > > > > > > > energies.If a planet has joined debilitation,rashi

> through

> > > > navamsha

> > > > > > > > sambandha -it is showing lack of a particular prana

> support.See

> > > > the

> > > > > > > > bhava for which this planet is a lord and also its

> karakattwa to

> > > > > > study

> > > > > > > > results.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Please try to understand the concept of Bhava.It is the

> unison

> > > > of

> > > > > > Atma

> > > > > > > > and Manas.Other constituents,are just

> facilitators.HOLISTIC

> > > > approach

> > > > > > > > alone can take us towards Sakshathkaara.Hope you will

> give a

> > > > patient

> > > > > > > > ear.You can ofcourse still disagree,provided you have

> supporting

> > > > > > logic.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Regds

> > > > > > > > Pradeep

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > vedic astrology, "Bharat Hindu

> Astrology"

> > > > > > > > hinduastrology@ wrote:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Namaskaar Sri Pradeep

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > First of all I must say what I have not said so far -

> You can

> > > > make

> > > > > > > > people

> > > > > > > > > think and also make them study the classics before

> they reply

> > > > to

> > > > > > you.

> > > > > > > > I

> > > > > > > > > admire your questions and even if you are not open to

> > > > existence of

> > > > > > > > certain

> > > > > > > > > ideas (due to lack of reference in classics or logic

> or

> > > > reasoning

> > > > > > > > regarding

> > > > > > > > > the idea or else), your approach is worthy of praise.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Before we begin this journey, a small prayer:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > OM SAHANA VAVATU SAHANA BHUNATTU, SAHA VIRYAM

> KARAWAVAHAI

> > > > > > > > > TEJASVINAVADITAMASTU MA VIDVISHAVAHAI

> > > > > > > > > OM SHANTI ! SHANTI ! SHANTI !

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > * Together may be be protected

> > > > > > > > > Together may we be nourished

> > > > > > > > > Together may we work with great energy

> > > > > > > > > May our journey together be brilliant and effective

> > > > > > > > > May there be no hatred between us

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > *

> > > > > > > > > Now, back to our discussion. Let us not discuss

> charts here

> > > > and

> > > > > > > > understand

> > > > > > > > > the concepts:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Though, 5 are the vital functions of Prana,the

> secondary ones

> > > > too

> > > > > > are

> > > > > > > > > part of sookshma shareera.

> > > > > > > > > I agreed with you even in my previous email. So no

> contention

> > > > over

> > > > > > > > here.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > In Jyotisha,we are studying the confluence of numerous

> > > > > > entities,for eg

> > > > > > > > > sookshma shareera,comprising of navapranas,dasha

> > > > indriyas,manas

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > budhi along with sthoola shareera.Pranas alone or

> indriyas

> > > > alone

> > > > > > > > cannot

> > > > > > > > > make a meaning.All the entities have to act in

> > > > coordination.The

> > > > > > order

> > > > > > > > or

> > > > > > > > > samyoga krama from atma onwards is as follows.Atma

> joins

> > > > > > Manas,Manas

> > > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > Indriyas,Indriyas to Vishayas(loosely translation

> > > > > > ''subjects''),then

> > > > > > > > > vishaya sukha etc.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > There are so many concepts in this one paragraph that

> I will

> > > > need

> > > > > > > > couple of

> > > > > > > > > days to explain. Let me make some humble beginnings:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > 1. Action is not only that of the Sthoola Sarira.

> Each thought

> > > > is

> > > > > > > > likened to

> > > > > > > > > an Action. To understand this, think of a person who

> becomes

> > > > > > fearful

> > > > > > > > of an

> > > > > > > > > external situation. The fear is in the mind and it

> causes the

> > > > > > > > discrimination

> > > > > > > > > to vanish (vijnanamaya kosha) and it has effects on

> the

> > > > (pranamaya

> > > > > > > > kosha)

> > > > > > > > > and through it on the (annamaya kosha). But if you

> think, fear

> > > > is

> > > > > > only

> > > > > > > > in

> > > > > > > > > the Mind. It is the action of the mind. Confluence of

> numerous

> > > > > > > > entities is

> > > > > > > > > fine, but, Veda is clear about cause and effect and

> in that we

> > > > can

> > > > > > see

> > > > > > > > what

> > > > > > > > > is going on in the manomaya kosha, that may or may not

> > > > fructify

> > > > > > into

> > > > > > > > actual

> > > > > > > > > physical action. If there was a way, we could

> understand that,

> > > > > > would

> > > > > > > > it not

> > > > > > > > > be extremely helpful for any native?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > 2. Pranas and Jnana Indriyas have a great meaning

> alone.

> > > > Blockages

> > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > prana

> > > > > > > > > will give rise to disease in the Sthoola Sarira. I am

> taking a

> > > > > > > > hypothetical

> > > > > > > > > example - let's suppose one varga defines the

> functioning of

> > > > apana

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > is showing defects, would it not mean directly that

> Sthoola

> > > > Sarira

> > > > > > > > will such

> > > > > > > > > a disease? I think, through the varga we are going

> into the

> > > > roots

> > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > things.

> > > > > > > > > Remember what the Upanishad say, Prana prevade the

> sthoola

> > > > sarira.

> > > > > > > > This

> > > > > > > > > means they are independent of the Sthoola Sarira and

> secondly,

> > > > > > they

> > > > > > > > are not

> > > > > > > > > necessarily contained within the Sthoola Sarira. Now

> if some

> > > > is

> > > > > > deaf

> > > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > dumb or blind, the influence of those indriyas in not

> in the

> > > > > > manomaya

> > > > > > > > kosha.

> > > > > > > > > How can you say with sureity that Prana and indriyas

> alone do

> > > > not

> > > > > > have

> > > > > > > > any

> > > > > > > > > meaning? That there are inter dependencies is fine,

> but causes

> > > > lie

> > > > > > > > deep

> > > > > > > > > within through the kosas.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > 3. All entities may not act in coordination. This is

> the

> > > > imbalance

> > > > > > > > through

> > > > > > > > > the manomaya kosha or pranamaya kosha.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > 4. Atma never joins the Manas. Atma is forever free.

> Atman is

> > > > > > Brahman

> > > > > > > > > (Mahavakya). Then, why do we call Atman and Brahman

> while

> > > > > > referring it

> > > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > the same thing. It is because of our own limited

> thinking.

> > > > Atman

> > > > > > is

> > > > > > > > referred

> > > > > > > > > to the Truth while talking of the Self. While Brahman

> is

> > > > spoken of

> > > > > > as

> > > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > Truth while talking of the entirety. This does not

> make them

> > > > > > different

> > > > > > > > > entities.

> > > > > > > > > Atma is Omnipresent and Omniscient, and therefore, it

> enlivens

> > > > as

> > > > > > > > cognition

> > > > > > > > > in the mind. Mind is the collection of thoughts. It

> is born

> > > > out of

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > thought that I am not the whole. This "I" thought is

> the ego.

> > > > > > > > Therefore, ego

> > > > > > > > > takes a collection of thoughts and calls it one's

> mind. How is

> > > > ego

> > > > > > > > evident -

> > > > > > > > > throught the light of Atma, how is mind evident -

> through the

> > > > > > light of

> > > > > > > > Atma.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Remember the verse of the Upanishad and of

> Aparokshanubhuti -

> > > > Asti

> > > > > > > > bhati

> > > > > > > > > priyam rupam, naam ........ Aadhatriyam brahma rupam

> jagat

> > > > rupam

> > > > > > tato

> > > > > > > > dvayam

> > > > > > > > > (please do not mind my english transliteration). The

> > > > existence,

> > > > > > > > knowledge

> > > > > > > > > and bliss of anything is of the nature of Brahman,

> whereas,

> > > > nama

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > rupa is

> > > > > > > > > the nature of the jagat (world). So that mind exists,

> and

> > > > thought

> > > > > > > > exists -

> > > > > > > > > the existence is the quality of Atman but that we

> define a

> > > > thought

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > give

> > > > > > > > > a name to it, is born out of maya.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Therefore, for Atma there is no mind. For the mind,

> it has to

> > > > > > > > disengage from

> > > > > > > > > the desiring activities to the entity that enlivens

> it, to

> > > > have

> > > > > > some

> > > > > > > > idea of

> > > > > > > > > Atma. (This is a very basic idea here just to

> intellectually

> > > > have

> > > > > > an

> > > > > > > > idea of

> > > > > > > > > Atman)

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Atma just goes where the manas is taking him.

> > > > > > > > > Atman prevades vijnanamaya kosha and all objects and

> beings.

> > > > Mind

> > > > > > > > cannot

> > > > > > > > > take it anywhere. Where mind goes, Atman is there

> already

> > > > (many

> > > > > > > > references

> > > > > > > > > in Upanishad).

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > 5. Mind is the controller of Indriyas in light of the

> Atman.

> > > > > > Without

> > > > > > > > its

> > > > > > > > > light, indriyas would go out of control. For a

> moment, let us

> > > > > > bring

> > > > > > > > Dharma

> > > > > > > > > instead of Atman. Dharma is vijnanamaya kosha. If

> Dharma isn't

> > > > > > guiding

> > > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > mind, then mind cannot reign in the senses and that

> will

> > > > result in

> > > > > > > > > passionate actions. If one of the vargas is showing

> vijnana

> > > > maya

> > > > > > kosha

> > > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > another the manomaya kosha, their interaction will

> show

> > > > whether or

> > > > > > not

> > > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > native will follow Dharma while pursuing Artha and

> Kama. Is it

> > > > > > not?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Now, why are we making such an assumption? Is it a

> new theory?

> > > > > > > > > Jyotish as a shastra is subservient to Vedas. If

> Vedas have

> > > > given

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > panchkoshas, there has to be its relevance in the

> charts. You

> > > > also

> > > > > > > > agree to

> > > > > > > > > the same and only object to seeing the koshas

> separately

> > > > (which is

> > > > > > > > akin to

> > > > > > > > > seeing the divisional charts separately).

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The underlying discussion should be held:

> > > > > > > > > Whether the lagna chart is showing the Sthoola Sarira

> or it is

> > > > the

> > > > > > > > resultant

> > > > > > > > > Jiva? I would love to hear your views. It could be

> both and

> > > > each

> > > > > > would

> > > > > > > > raise

> > > > > > > > > a volley of questions. If it is the resultant jiva,

> then, why

> > > > > > study

> > > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > divisional chart at all. Why, even, go to the

> Navamsha? If it

> > > > is

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > Sthoola

> > > > > > > > > Sarira, then, why use it too much as most can be

> gathered

> > > > through

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > divisional chart?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Mind as you have said has many functions -

> > > > Budhi,Ahamkara,Chitta

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > Manas.Manas is very important as it has a big role in

> > > > directing

> > > > > > our

> > > > > > > > > indriyas.But as chitta,is past impressions stored,it

> can act

> > > > with

> > > > > > > > > guidance from Budhi (discriminator),to give proper

> signals to

> > > > the

> > > > > > > > > manas.For the same reason it is said,Guru aspecting

> 5th lord

> > > > is

> > > > > > Budhi

> > > > > > > > > Madhurya(Dr.B.V.Raman 300 imp cominations).5th lords

> > > > disposition

> > > > > > from

> > > > > > > > > Brihaspati is also important - It shows whether the

> > > > instructions

> > > > > > from

> > > > > > > > > Brihaspati (Jnana Sukha karaka)can be received or

> not.Whenever

> > > > we

> > > > > > are

> > > > > > > > > analyzing or trying to perceive,budhi interacts with

> chitta,

> > > > to

> > > > > > study

> > > > > > > > > based on past impressions.These are passed on to

> manas.Manas

> > > > > > process

> > > > > > > > > these along with impressions(ongoing) gathered through

> > > > > > > > > indriyas.Brihaspati is Jnana as well as Sukha

> Karaka.Budha is

> > > > > > Jnana

> > > > > > > > > Swarupa and karaka for ''Vak''.As we know control of

> > > > indriyas,or

> > > > > > > > > withdrawal is the only way, for taming the mind.But

> Mind is

> > > > such a

> > > > > > > > > thing, that is so difficult to control.Here Budhi &

> Chitta can

> > > > be

> > > > > > > > handy,

> > > > > > > > > as mentioned above.Thus we may have to gain Vairagya

> through

> > > > > > > > > practise,obeying to budhi.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > This is huge and I am already getting fatiqued. I

> wish you

> > > > were

> > > > > > here

> > > > > > > > with me

> > > > > > > > > discussing this, atleast I wouldn't have to type all.

> > > > Nonetheless,

> > > > > > let

> > > > > > > > me

> > > > > > > > > get started again:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Budhi: discriminating, reasoning, judging faculty.

> Budhi

> > > > judges

> > > > > > based

> > > > > > > > on its

> > > > > > > > > understanding. The principles of Dharma should guide

> Buddhi.

> > > > To

> > > > > > > > discriminate

> > > > > > > > > and follow, it needs the light of Truth or the

> reasoning why

> > > > to

> > > > > > follow

> > > > > > > > > Dharma. The light is provided by Sun, that is why

> Mercury

> > > > "tries"

> > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > be

> > > > > > > > > close to Sun. This is the BudhaAditya Yoga. Jupiter

> is the

> > > > store

> > > > > > house

> > > > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > > intelligence and provides deep thinking on each

> stimuli. It,

> > > > > > > > therefore,

> > > > > > > > > represents Dharma.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The Manas may or may not refer a matter to Budhi (most

> > > > reactive

> > > > > > stance

> > > > > > > > are

> > > > > > > > > manas acting alone). Budhi comes into play only if

> Manas lets

> > > > it.

> > > > > > Only

> > > > > > > > if

> > > > > > > > > Budhi is referred too, Dharma can come into play.

> Under

> > > > Gajakesari

> > > > > > > > Yoga, the

> > > > > > > > > instincts of Dharma become strong and therefore,

> without

> > > > referring

> > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > Budhi,

> > > > > > > > > a person is able to do Dharmic actions. As Jupiter

> signifies

> > > > > > Dharma,

> > > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > Dharma is the true way to lasting sukha, therefore it

> is the

> > > > Sukha

> > > > > > > > Karaka.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > To explain the above, we do not need the houses. The

> houses

> > > > will

> > > > > > > > provide the

> > > > > > > > > sthoola Sarira the Kshetra of expression. Karma has

> to come

> > > > from

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > graha.

> > > > > > > > > By not providing the adequate Kshetra, the graha is

> unfilled

> > > > or

> > > > > > > > > disappointed. This is what happens if you see Jupiter

> is

> > > > Kshetra

> > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > learning

> > > > > > > > > and intelligence - it is brilliant. In Kshetra of war

> and

> > > > Adharma,

> > > > > > > > it's

> > > > > > > > > expression is unfulfilled.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Now the question comes - What do the signs and houses

> of

> > > > Vargas

> > > > > > > > provide -

> > > > > > > > > Internal Kshetram? Subtle Kshetram? Is there no

> possibility of

> > > > the

> > > > > > > > same?

> > > > > > > > > Now, if you understand that Prana and Manas is

> prevading

> > > > beyond

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > boundary

> > > > > > > > > of the sthoola sarira, this could mean a lot.

> Frankly, I have

> > > > no

> > > > > > clue

> > > > > > > > now on

> > > > > > > > > what the results would be. I require help over here

> and we

> > > > need to

> > > > > > > > research

> > > > > > > > > (that is why I was certain of research). Another

> thing,

> > > > re-search

> > > > > > > > means

> > > > > > > > > searching for something that already is, and, not for

> > > > something

> > > > > > > > altogether

> > > > > > > > > new.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The sookshma shareera spans across numerous

> koshas.Thus it may

> > > > not

> > > > > > be

> > > > > > > > > easy to group or confine them within certain koshas

> as you

> > > > have

> > > > > > > > > mentioned.Eg.If Vargamshas from Kshethra to

> Dwadashamsha are

> > > > > > > > > Annamaya,then how do you include navamshas which are

> > > > > > > > > navapranas.Pranamaya Kosha is supposed to have

> pranas.But as i

> > > > am

> > > > > > not

> > > > > > > > > sure,i am refraining from making comments.

> > > > > > > > > I may be wrong. I agree and only need support that we

> all

> > > > research

> > > > > > > > together

> > > > > > > > > instead of totally dismissing the idea.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I may be wrong or right.But i am depending on

> classics to

> > > > arrive

> > > > > > at

> > > > > > > > > conclusions.I do not have courage to frame

> theories.If you are

> > > > > > > > > certain,you may kindly explain how nava pranas taken

> together

> > > > can

> > > > > > > > result

> > > > > > > > > in a Bhava.My understanding is to think of, how

> pranas are

> > > > > > infleuncing

> > > > > > > > a

> > > > > > > > > bhava.Classical examples too demonstrate the same.

> > > > > > > > > You are free to hold your opinion and can correct

> me,with

> > > > classics

> > > > > > or

> > > > > > > > > logic.

> > > > > > > > > Till I discover BrahmaVidya, I will be wrong. My

> certainity

> > > > lies

> > > > > > in

> > > > > > > > that the

> > > > > > > > > vargas can be used separately. How to use them, I am

> > > > uncertain. My

> > > > > > > > logic and

> > > > > > > > > reasoning points to their usage. Furthermore, how the

> vargas

> > > > are

> > > > > > being

> > > > > > > > > analyzed in many books, I am uncertain if they are

> true too.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I thank you for this free exchange and hope I do not

> get tired

> > > > > > easily.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Thanks and Regards

> > > > > > > > > Bharat

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > On 2/21/06, vijayadas_pradeep vijayadas_pradeep@

> wrote:

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Dear Bharat ji Namaskar

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the detailed explanations and Koshas.

> > > > > > > > > > Though, 5 are the vital functions of Prana,the

> secondary

> > > > ones

> > > > > > too

> > > > > > > > are

> > > > > > > > > > part of sookshma shareera.Dhananjaya is excepeted

> for the

> > > > reason

> > > > > > > > > > mentioned in the previous mail,and hence the other

> nine are

> > > > > > related

> > > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > navamshas.

> > > > > > > > > > In Jyotisha,we are studying the confluence of

> numerous

> > > > > > entities,for

> > > > > > > > eg

> > > > > > > > > > sookshma shareera,comprising of navapranas,dasha

> > > > indriyas,manas

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > budhi along with sthoola shareera.Pranas alone or

> indriyas

> > > > alone

> > > > > > > > cannot

> > > > > > > > > > make a meaning.All the entities have to act in

> > > > coordination.The

> > > > > > > > order or

> > > > > > > > > > samyoga krama from atma onwards is as follows.Atma

> joins

> > > > > > Manas,Manas

> > > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > Indriyas,Indriyas to Vishayas(loosely translation

> > > > > > ''subjects''),then

> > > > > > > > > > vishaya sukha etc.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Atma just goes where the manas is taking him.Manas

> directs

> > > > > > indriyas

> > > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > indriyas associates with various vishayas and

> pleasures.

> > > > > > > > > > Mind as you have said has many functions -

> > > > Budhi,Ahamkara,Chitta

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > Manas.Manas is very important as it has a big role

> in

> > > > directing

> > > > > > our

> > > > > > > > > > indriyas.But as chitta,is past impressions

> stored,it can act

> > > > > > with

> > > > > > > > > > guidance from Budhi (discriminator),to give proper

> signals

> > > > to

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > manas.For the same reason it is said,Guru aspecting

> 5th lord

> > > > is

> > > > > > > > Budhi

> > > > > > > > > > Madhurya(Dr.B.V.Raman 300 imp cominations).5th lords

> > > > disposition

> > > > > > > > from

> > > > > > > > > > Brihaspati is also important - It shows whether the

> > > > instructions

> > > > > > > > from

> > > > > > > > > > Brihaspati (Jnana Sukha karaka)can be received or

> > > > not.Whenever

> > > > > > we

> > > > > > > > are

> > > > > > > > > > analyzing or trying to perceive,budhi interacts

> with chitta,

> > > > to

> > > > > > > > study

> > > > > > > > > > based on past impressions.These are passed on to

> manas.Manas

> > > > > > process

> > > > > > > > > > these along with impressions(ongoing) gathered

> through

> > > > > > > > > > indriyas.Brihaspati is Jnana as well as Sukha

> Karaka.Budha

> > > > is

> > > > > > Jnana

> > > > > > > > > > Swarupa and karaka for ''Vak''.As we know control of

> > > > indriyas,or

> > > > > > > > > > withdrawal is the only way, for taming the mind.But

> Mind is

> > > > such

> > > > > > a

> > > > > > > > > > thing, that is so difficult to control.Here Budhi &

> Chitta

> > > > can

> > > > > > be

> > > > > > > > handy,

> > > > > > > > > > as mentioned above.Thus we may have to gain

> Vairagya through

> > > > > > > > > > practise,obeying to budhi.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The sookshma shareera spans across numerous

> koshas.Thus it

> > > > may

> > > > > > not

> > > > > > > > be

> > > > > > > > > > easy to group or confine them within certain koshas

> as you

> > > > have

> > > > > > > > > > mentioned.Eg.If Vargamshas from Kshethra to

> Dwadashamsha are

> > > > > > > > > > Annamaya,then how do you include navamshas which are

> > > > > > > > > > navapranas.Pranamaya Kosha is supposed to have

> pranas.But as

> > > > i

> > > > > > am

> > > > > > > > not

> > > > > > > > > > sure,i am refraining from making comments.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > But if you can close your eyes and think for few

> seconds,you

> > > > can

> > > > > > > > > > perceive what a Bhava is(Also think of Bhava in

> Nritta and

> > > > > > Sangeetha

> > > > > > > > -

> > > > > > > > > > The art forms are expressions arising out of

> internal and

> > > > > > external

> > > > > > > > > > harmony.When one forgets about mind,True Bhava

> manifests

> > > > with

> > > > > > Laya

> > > > > > > > or

> > > > > > > > > > flow).It is the simultaneous functioniong of

> numerous

> > > > > > entities.Think

> > > > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > > > the functioning of human system.A body(sthoola)

> > > > simultaneously

> > > > > > > > working

> > > > > > > > > > with prana,indriya,manas,budhi,ahamkara etc can

> only have a

> > > > > > > > Bhava.Prana

> > > > > > > > > > alone does not have any bhava - so is manas - it

> has to get

> > > > > > > > impressions

> > > > > > > > > > from indriyas or past ones from chitta.How we are

> able to

> > > > derive

> > > > > > > > each

> > > > > > > > > > and every amsha from individual rashis, holds the

> > > > conclusion.A

> > > > > > rashi

> > > > > > > > is

> > > > > > > > > > a sumtotal of all these.Planets are giving

> life,which they

> > > > in

> > > > > > turn

> > > > > > > > have

> > > > > > > > > > gained from Soorya.Purusha manifests as Prana.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I may be wrong or right.But i am depending on

> classics to

> > > > arrive

> > > > > > at

> > > > > > > > > > conclusions.I do not have courage to frame

> theories.If you

> > > > are

> > > > > > > > > > certain,you may kindly explain how nava pranas taken

> > > > together

> > > > > > can

> > > > > > > > result

> > > > > > > > > > in a Bhava.My understanding is to think of, how

> pranas are

> > > > > > > > infleuncing a

> > > > > > > > > > bhava.Classical examples too demonstrate the same.

> > > > > > > > > > You are free to hold your opinion and can correct

> me,with

> > > > > > classics

> > > > > > > > or

> > > > > > > > > > logic.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Regds

> > > > > > > > > > Pradeep

> > > > > > > > > > vedic astrology, "Bharat

> Hindu

> > > > Astrology"

> > > > > > > > > > hinduastrology@ wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Namaskaar Sri Pradeep

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > It is no use giving simple explanations on the

> forum.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Taittirya Upanishad Chapter XIII: Than that,

> verily -than

> > > > this

> > > > > > one

> > > > > > > > > > formed of

> > > > > > > > > > > Prana -there is another self within formed of

> Manas. By

> > > > Him

> > > > > > this

> > > > > > > > one

> > > > > > > > > > is

> > > > > > > > > > > filled.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > When we talk of Jnana indriyas, we talk of two

> things-

> > > > organs

> > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > > > perception

> > > > > > > > > > > and their stimuli being registered in the mind.

> As the

> > > > > > indriyas by

> > > > > > > > > > itself

> > > > > > > > > > > cannot bring Jnana or cognition, it is the

> Manomaya Kosha

> > > > or

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > Mind

> > > > > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > > > brings it. The word Jnana indriyas therefore

> refers to

> > > > > > perception.

> > > > > > > > To

> > > > > > > > > > say

> > > > > > > > > > > perception rests with the Mind is okay to say

> that senses

> > > > rest

> > > > > > > > with

> > > > > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > > mind, will be incorrect. So Jnana indriyas is

> another

> > > > function

> > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > mind

> > > > > > > > > > > and a different one from its other functions. It

> should

> > > > not be

> > > > > > > > taken

> > > > > > > > > > as a

> > > > > > > > > > > separate organ or a place or else.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > The mano maya kosha is the first kosha in the

> order from

> > > > gross

> > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > subtle to

> > > > > > > > > > > be show cognition as it has more of Sattva Guna as

> > > > compared to

> > > > > > > > > > Pranamaya

> > > > > > > > > > > kosha which is mostly Rajas and Anamayakosha that

> is

> > > > mostly

> > > > > > Tamas.

> > > > > > > > So

> > > > > > > > > > here

> > > > > > > > > > > in lies the instrument of karana sakti, and the

> bhoga

> > > > sakti.

> > > > > > As of

> > > > > > > > > > product

> > > > > > > > > > > of Jnana sakti, it has various vrittis.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > "Desire, representation, doubt, faith, want of

> faith, want

> > > > of

> > > > > > > > > > firmness,

> > > > > > > > > > > shame, reflection, fear - all in mind" -

> Brihadaryanka

> > > > > > Upanishad

> > > > > > > > 1-5-3

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > So among many functions Jnana Indriyas is the

> cognition of

> > > > > > > > perception.

> > > > > > > > > > But

> > > > > > > > > > > senses shall remain in the sthoola sarira. Pranas

> that

> > > > > > prevades

> > > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > anamaya

> > > > > > > > > > > kosha or the sthoola sarira, shall be the sthana

> of Karma

> > > > > > > > Indriyas,

> > > > > > > > > > meaning

> > > > > > > > > > > the enabling the function of action. It is the

> carrier of

> > > > > > Manomaya

> > > > > > > > > > kosha's

> > > > > > > > > > > directives to the limbs and organs of actions of

> the body.

> > > > > > Again

> > > > > > > > it is

> > > > > > > > > > one

> > > > > > > > > > > of the functions and not a separate place, or

> identity.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > As Mano-maya kosha prevades the pranamaya kosha,

> the

> > > > function

> > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > > > perception

> > > > > > > > > > > shall prevade the pranamaya kosha but the senses

> itself

> > > > shall

> > > > > > not

> > > > > > > > > > prevade

> > > > > > > > > > > the pranamaya kosha. As Pranamaya does not have

> distinct

> > > > > > parts,

> > > > > > > > just

> > > > > > > > > > as in

> > > > > > > > > > > manomaya kosha, it is a unity present in every

> part of the

> > > > > > body

> > > > > > > > > > performing

> > > > > > > > > > > its functions.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Now, I see you mention 10 pranas. It is correct,

> though

> > > > > > generally

> > > > > > > > 5

> > > > > > > > > > > prominent ones are used and in the Upanishad

> these five

> > > > are

> > > > > > > > mentioned.

> > > > > > > > > > > (Maitreya Up. 2-6)

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Trimshamshas are pancha jnanendriyas.Sun and Moon

> do not

> > > > have

> > > > > > any

> > > > > > > > > > > ownership here.When we think it is clear.

> > > > > > > > > > > It is the indriyas through which we are drawing

> > > > impressions

> > > > > > from

> > > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > > external and hence the cause for evils.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > If we see the same, then, what I had suggested to

> you and

> > > > the

> > > > > > > > forum,

> > > > > > > > > > earlier

> > > > > > > > > > > could be true. D1-D12 - Anamaya kosha D13-D24

> Pranamaya

> > > > Kosha,

> > > > > > > > D25-D36

> > > > > > > > > > > (where in D30 lies) Manomaya Kosha. (This was

> followed by

> > > > chat

> > > > > > > > with

> > > > > > > > > > Sri Hari

> > > > > > > > > > > and Sri Parthasarathy too)

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Could then, divisional charts (D25-D36) relate to

> the

> > > > > > different

> > > > > > > > > > functions of

> > > > > > > > > > > the mind? I am certain of two things:

> > > > > > > > > > > 1. They can be used separately in view of the

> above- how

> > > > we

> > > > > > need

> > > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > find

> > > > > > > > > > > out. Possible clues could be checking the

> cognition of

> > > > > > different

> > > > > > > > > > stimuli,

> > > > > > > > > > > what desires move about, in what the person's

> faith lies,

> > > > etc.

> > > > > > > > After

> > > > > > > > > > all,

> > > > > > > > > > > the causes of bodily actions lie in these charts,

> there is

> > > > > > much

> > > > > > > > more

> > > > > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > > them.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > 2. More research is needed.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks and Regards

> > > > > > > > > > > Bharat

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > On 2/19/06, vijayadas_pradeep vijayadas_pradeep@

> wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Anilkumar ji,Arjun ji ,Bharatji Namaskaar

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > EkaVimshopi(21) constituents of Sookshma

> shareera are

> > > > > > composed

> > > > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > > > > > dwadasha(12) Budhindriyaadis and navapranas.

> > > > > > > > > > > > Here 12,Budhi-indriyaadis are Budhi,Manas and 10

> > > > Indriyas.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Arjun ji as you may be aware,Organs are

> different from

> > > > > > indriyas.

> > > > > > > > > > > > 1)Jnanendriyas -smell,taste,see,touch,hear.

> > > > > > > > > > > > 2)Karmendriyas -

> excrete,reproduce,move,grasp,speak.

> > > > > > > > > > > > Thus nose,ear,legs etc are the organs

> corresponding to

> > > > the

> > > > > > above

> > > > > > > > 10

> > > > > > > > > > > > indriyas.

> > > > > > > > > > > > Nava Pranas are -

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > Pranan,Apanan,Samanan,Vyanan,Udanan,Nagam,Koormam,Krikalam &

> > > > > > > > > > > > Devadattam.Tenth Prana Dhananjaya,is for dead

> bodies.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Rashi is sthoola shareera ,comprising of

> Organs.But

> > > > organs

> > > > > > are

> > > > > > > > just

> > > > > > > > > > > > structures if there is no life.Thus Purusha

> manifests as

> > > > > > Prana.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Trimshamshas are pancha jnanendriyas.Sun and

> Moon do not

> > > > > > have

> > > > > > > > any

> > > > > > > > > > > > ownership here.When we think it is clear.

> > > > > > > > > > > > It is the indriyas through which we are drawing

> > > > impressions

> > > > > > from

> > > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > > > external and hence the cause for evils.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Can indriyas alone be considered as a Bhava?

> No.Bhava is

> > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > confluence

> > > > > > > > > > > > of many.We should think how it is possible to

> study all

> > > > > > aspects

> > > > > > > > > > > > pertaining to a jataka from ''Rashi Chakra''.

> > > > > > > > > > > > This is possible as, one rashi becomes a

> bhava,when it

> > > > has a

> > > > > > > > lord

> > > > > > > > > > w.r

> > > > > > > > > > > > to lagna.For properly understanding the

> functioning of

> > > > each

> > > > > > > > Bhava,we

> > > > > > > > > > > > have to see the subtle infleunces on bhava

> nathas.Each

> > > > > > subtle

> > > > > > > > > > > > infleunce will have a role,for eg,navamsha

> infleunce is

> > > > > > > > > > corresponding

> > > > > > > > > > > > to kalathra,bhagya etc.

> > > > > > > > > > > > Thus sookshma shareera acts in sync with

> corresponding

> > > > > > sthoola

> > > > > > > > > > > > shareera organs.Trying to study them in

> isolation or

> > > > > > considering

> > > > > > > > > > Bhava

> > > > > > > > > > > > there is beyond my understanding.Others who have

> > > > understood

> > > > > > may

> > > > > > > > > > > > explain for better comprehension.We should

> think why we

> > > > do

> > > > > > not

> > > > > > > > have

> > > > > > > > > > > > shlokas to support bhavas in vargamsha

> groupings.Why is

> > > > > > > > Vargottama

> > > > > > > > > > > > important?Any planet is a Bhavanatha or

> karaka.When he

> > > > is

> > > > > > having

> > > > > > > > > > > > similar subtle and gross infleuences,shubha

> results.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > When time permits ,i can share some more from

> the works

> > > > of

> > > > > > > > > > > > Mahamunis,if it is helpful for you.Mind - and

> its

> > > > > > > > > > > > constituents,improtance of chitta(past

> impressions

> > > > > > and),Budhi,

> > > > > > > > > > > > Ahamkara etc.Chitta is also 5th house and

> PoorvaPunya.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks

> > > > > > > > > > > > Pradeep

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > vedic astrology,

> > > > "panditarjun2004"

> > > > > > > > > > > > panditarjun2004@ wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > namaste bharat ji

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > i am looking at how to read from the signs,

> houses or

> > > > > > planets

> > > > > > > > on

> > > > > > > > > > all

> > > > > > > > > > > > > kinds of indriyas (not body organs). we all

> learnt how

> > > > > > bodily

> > > > > > > > > > parts

> > > > > > > > > > > > > are read from various houses starting from

> head from

> > > > langa

> > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > feet

> > > > > > > > > > > > > in the 12th. please share on reading of these

> indriyas

> > > > > > > > (sensory

> > > > > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > > > > non-sensory) from a sign/house/planet.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > the two nadis ida and pingala are related to

> sun and

> > > > moon.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > similarly please share how the five vayus are

> read in

> > > > > > > > astrology.

> > > > > > > > > > i

> > > > > > > > > > > > > understand that the seven chakras (mooladhara,

> > > > > > svadhisthana,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > manipuraka, anahata, vishuddha, ajna and

> sahasrara)

> > > > can

> > > > > > also

> > > > > > > > be

> > > > > > > > > > read

> > > > > > > > > > > > > from a chart and have their correlation with

> signs,

> > > > houses

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > > > > planets. would be grateful if any member share

> > > > information

> > > > > > on

> > > > > > > > > > this.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > with best wishes and regards

> > > > > > > > > > > > > arjun

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > vedic-

> astrology, "Bharat Hindu

> > > > > > > > Astrology"

> > > > > > > > > > > > > <hinduastrology@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaskaar Sri Arjun

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Jnanaindriyas are the five senses of

> perception.

> > > > The

> > > > > > > > five

> > > > > > > > > > > > > karma indriyas

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > are organs of speech, hands, legs, organ of

> > > > procreation,

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > organ

> > > > > > > > > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > excretion. The pranamaya kosha (prana,

> apana, udana,

> > > > > > vyana

> > > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > > > > samana)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > provide the forces that make the indriyas

> function.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks and Regards

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bharat

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2/18/06, panditarjun2004

> <panditarjun2004@>

> > > > wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dear anil ji

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pradeep:Thus Rashis are 12 and they

> constitue 12

> > > > > > organs

> > > > > > > > as

> > > > > > > > > > > > > well as

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 12 bhavas.Sookshma shareera consists of

> > > > navapranas

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > 12

> > > > > > > > > > > > > indiryas.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anil:There are 5 Jnyanendriyas and 5

> > > > Karmendriyas so

> > > > > > 10

> > > > > > > > > > only.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please give supporting verses. Organs

> and

> > > > Indriyas

> > > > > > are

> > > > > > > > > > > > > different.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > without knowing whether the indriyas are

> twelve or

> > > > > > ten, i

> > > > > > > > > > would

> > > > > > > > > > > > > request

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you to give their correlation to signs or

> houses

> > > > in

> > > > > > > > seriatim

> > > > > > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > > > > > me to

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > learn more.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes you are right in saying that organs

> are

> > > > different

> > > > > > from

> > > > > > > > > > > > > indriyas and

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it is organs which we consider for medical

> > > > astrology.

> > > > > > if

> > > > > > > > you

> > > > > > > > > > > > > share

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > your knowledge on indriyas it would help

> me

> > > > understand

> > > > > > > > better.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with best wishes

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > arjun

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Archives:

> > > > vedic astrology

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Group info:

> vedic-

> > > > > > > > > > > > > astrology/info.html

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic-

> astrology-

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on

> us .......

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri

> Krishnaarpanamastu ||

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Astrology

> chart</gads?

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> t=ms&k=Astrology+chart&w1=Astrology+chart&w2=Vedic+astrology&w3=Astro

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> logy+horoscope&w4=Astrology+software&c=4&s=91&.sig=UoktiPHSoTwQkpGMXB

> > > > > > > > > > > > > NeEg> Vedic

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > astrology</gads?

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> t=ms&k=Vedic+astrology&w1=Astrology+chart&w2=Vedic+astrology&w3=Astro

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> logy+horoscope&w4=Astrology+software&c=4&s=91&.sig=qNtEn5POAbTpzmtNKI

> > > > > > > > > > > > > dnHA> Astrology

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> t=ms&k=Astrology+horoscope&w1=Astrology+chart&w2=Vedic+astrology&w3=A

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> > > > > > > >

> > > >

> strology+horoscope&w4=Astrology+software&c=4&s=91&.sig=8kShDb5zI-

> > > > > > > > > > > > > EsRMSq6tgiew> Astrology

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> t=ms&k=Astrology+software&w1=Astrology+chart&w2=Vedic+astrology&w3=As

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

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> > > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> trology+horoscope&w4=Astrology+software&c=4&s=91&.sig=Je51jg697mjdLNt

> > > > > > > > > > > > > 6iLuaCw>

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------

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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Visit your group "vedic-

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> > > > astrology<vedic astrology>"

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> subject=Un >

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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------

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> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

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> > > > > > > > > > > > Archives: vedic-

> astrology

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> > > > > > > > > > > > Group info:

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> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to

> > > > > > > > > > vedic astrology-

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us .......

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu

> ||

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> hart&w2=Vedic+astrology&w3=Astrology+horoscope&w4=Astrology+software&c

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> > > > > > > > > > &s=91&.sig=UoktiPHSoTwQkpGMXBNeEg> Vedic

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> t=ms&k=Vedic+astrology&w1=Astrolo\

> > > > </gads?t=ms&k=Vedic+astrology&w1=Astrolo%

> 5C>

> > > > \</gads?

> t=ms&k=Vedic+astrology&w1=Astrolo%5C >

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> t=ms&k=Vedic+astrology&w1=Astrolo%5C

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> t=ms&k=Vedic+astrology&w1=Astrolo%5C >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> gy+chart&w2=Vedic+astrology&w3=Astrology+horoscope&w4=Astrology+softwa

> re\

> > > > \

> > > > > > \

> > > > > > > > \

> > > > > > > > > > &c=4&s=91&.sig=qNtEn5POAbTpzmtNKIdnHA> Astrology

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

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> > > > > >

> > > > horoscope</gads?

> t=ms&k=Astrology+horoscope&w1=Ast\

> > > > </gads?t=ms&k=Astrology+horoscope&w1=Ast%

> 5C>

> > > > \</gads?

> t=ms&k=Astrology+horoscope&w1=Ast%5C >

> > > > > > \</gads?

> t=ms&k=Astrology+horoscope&w1=Ast%5C

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > \</gads?

> t=ms&k=Astrology+horoscope&w1=Ast%5C >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> rology+chart&w2=Vedic+astrology&w3=Astrology+horoscope&w4=Astrology+so

> ft\

> > > > \

> > > > > > \

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> > > > > > > > > > ware&c=4&s=91&.sig=8kShDb5zI-EsRMSq6tgiew> Astrology

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> > > > </gads?

> t=ms&k=Astrology+software&w1=Astro%5C>

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> t=ms&k=Astrology+software&w1=Astro%5C >

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> t=ms&k=Astrology+software&w1=Astro%5C >

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> logy+chart&w2=Vedic+astrology&w3=Astrology+horoscope&w4=Astrology+soft

> wa\

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> > > > > > \

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> > > > > > > > > > re&c=4&s=91&.sig=Je51jg697mjdLNt6iLuaCw>

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> > > >

> > > ...

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