Is perfection, infallibility possible?

[Guest guest]

Dear List,

Quoting my mother again. She used to say that just the fact we are

born - as humans - Manushya janma - precludes us from knowing the

ultimate perfection - the Almighty. We are simply not equipped or

preprogrammed. And so even the Gurus fail us - this failure is not so

much on the Gurus' part as much its on our receptivity.This goes back

to what Das,Ashutosh have said that a jataka is essentially a 'papa

jataka '- a sinner ( for want of a better word) and many lifetimes are

needed to learn the requisite lessons and ascend the ladder of Moksha.

Regards.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

We are told that a human birth is so precious because it gives us the

opportunity to achieve enlightenment. It is said that even the angels

in heaven do not have this.

 

Rgds, Wendy

_______________________

valist, "ranjiaiyer" <ranjiaiyer wrote:

>

> Dear List,

> Quoting my mother again. She used to say that just the fact we are

> born - as humans - Manushya janma - precludes us from knowing the

> ultimate perfection - the Almighty. We are simply not equipped or

> preprogrammed. And so even the Gurus fail us - this failure is not

so

> much on the Gurus' part as much its on our receptivity.This goes

back

> to what Das,Ashutosh have said that a jataka is essentially a 'papa

> jataka '- a sinner ( for want of a better word) and many lifetimes

are

> needed to learn the requisite lessons and ascend the ladder of

Moksha.

> Regards.

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

On May 16, 2006, at 11:05 PM, wenvasuk wrote:

 

> We are told that a human birth is so precious because it gives us the

> opportunity to achieve enlightenment. It is said that even the angels

> in heaven do not have this.

 

yep.

it's true.

 

www.AesculapiusPress.com

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaskaar Ranji

 

Anything that is said, whether it is a sinner theory or moksha theory - it

has to be complete and verifiable. The problem with sinner theory is that

requires the creation of heaven and hell. Heaven and Hell are said to be

places that one can visit only after one's death. By virtue of the same,

this theory becomes unverifiable and therefore, a blind belief.

 

Moksha theory says that one can achieve freedom right here, right now. One

janma is enough provided you ready yourself for it. If you fail this time,

another janma will be provided. But whenever you realize the freedom, you

shall verify it within the scope of life. You will not die and earn Moksha.

This sounds like a verifiable thing.

 

When one reads about the lives of Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa, Swami

Vivekananda, Sri Adi Sankara, Bhagwan Ramana Maharishi, and many others

before and after them, one can be atleast have faith in the Moksha theory.

It is a good start. Upon questioning it in all its teachings, one would get

to know if it is plausible or not.

 

Hope this was helpful.

 

Thanks and Regards

Bharat

 

 

 

On 5/17/06, ranjiaiyer <ranjiaiyer > wrote:

>

> Dear List,

> Quoting my mother again. She used to say that just the fact we are

> born - as humans - Manushya janma - precludes us from knowing the

> ultimate perfection - the Almighty. We are simply not equipped or

> preprogrammed. And so even the Gurus fail us - this failure is not so

> much on the Gurus' part as much its on our receptivity.This goes back

> to what Das,Ashutosh have said that a jataka is essentially a 'papa

> jataka '- a sinner ( for want of a better word) and many lifetimes are

> needed to learn the requisite lessons and ascend the ladder of Moksha.

> Regards.

>

>

>

> Links

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear John,

Could you write anything about the 'last thought'before death. Yogi

Karveji mentioned it in relation to my child. He literally said that

she would come back to me and gave a timeframe.iam all aquiver.

Many thanks&Regards.

 

 

 

 

 

 

<*>

valist/

 

<*>

valist

 

<*> Your

[Guest guest]

Dear members of the list,

Here is something you might find interesting. These are all

difficult topics but I found some portions of this book quite in the

reach of a layman like me. The following is taken from Pt Rajmani

Tigunait's "From Death to Birth" Understanding Karma and

Reincarnation published by the Himalayan Institute Press.

 

...The train of thought at the moment of death

determines the exact nature of the next birth. How we go out

determines how we come back. Samskaras determine the train of

thought a person will have at the time of death. When the prana or

life force departs, the conscious mind becomes lifeless and the jiva

is left with the unconscious mind.

 

There are realms of awareness to which we go if we are

not reborn right after death. The ideas of pleasure and pain, which

are simply conditions of the mind continue to exist in these realms.

In the interval after death we are in the realm of our unconscious,

experiencing pain or pleasure until the strongest among the subtle

impressions of our karmas gathers momentum and pushes us in the

direction of rebirth...

 

...The flow of prana during the time of death is regulated

by the forces of our karma. This determines the particular gate

through which the pranic force departs, and this in turn shapes the

journey that follows. We can make some predictions about the

destination of the departed soul by observing the movement of prana

and the precise time it leaves the body. In most of us, the higher

chakras or gates have become entangled and knotted, but they can be

disentangled with the help of meditation, contemplation, prayer,

selfless service, acts of charity, blessings of saints and God's

grace.

 

...The doctrine of karma is not fatalistic. On the

contrast, it proclaims that divine Providence helps those who help

themselves. If we use our present level of freedom with full

determination and faith, nature begins to grant us a wider range of

freedom. That is how we evolve spiritually. By listening to our

inner voice and consulting scriptures and saints to confirm its

validity, we can arrive at the right understanding of our actions.

If we perform our present actions selflessly, lovingly and

skillfully we attenuate old unwholesome karmas and generate new,

positive and uplifting karmas. This is karma yoga. Actions performed

on this path cannot change the path of destiny in our present life -

destiny has already predetermined our birth, longevity and other

aspects of our fate. But such actions can minimize the influence of

the secondary strands of our destiny.

 

...By itself, karma yoga is a long drawn out way of

freeing ourselves from the bondage of karma. Even the noblest act of

nonviolence and compassion involves some degree of pain to someone,

somewhere- there is no action completely devoid of negative karmic

effects. But we cannot bypass karma yoga - it helps us earn

virtues, which in turn draw God's grace toward us in the form of

right thinking( vichara ) and meeting wise people( satsanga ). When

a student is prepared, the Master appears. Selfless service is the

means of preparation. However the paths of meditation, knowledge,

devotion and surrender to God are paths which lead directly to the

destination. Each of these when pursued with diligence, is like a

keen sword which cuts asunder all the ropes of karma.

 

...The purpose of life is to realize our true self – that

which is divine and one with the universal self. If we have

accomplished this, we are reabsorbed into the immortal self at the

time of death and are free from the journey after life...

 

...There are many stories of miraculous transformations

involving those who had been dedicated to an intense practice in a

previous life. These people seem to acquire great spiritual wisdom

with minimal effort in this lifetime, and we wonder why, failing to

comprehend the intense effort they have put into their sadhana in

the past. Because they seem to achieve a great success with little

effort, we say they are blessed. We attribute their present success

to God's grace alone. The truth is that such people have

reincarnated rather than being reborn...

 

...Then there are the fortunate few who after dedicating

themselves to intense practice, achieve the goal, the realization of

the Self at every level. Through their practice and God's grace,

they unveil the mystery of the body, pranic forces, mind, samskaras,

and consciousness, as well as the relationship between the

individual and universal consciousness. As this knowledge dawns, the

darkness of ignorance, egoism, attachment, aversion and fear of

death totally vanishes. Then the unconscious mind can no longer bind

the soul to the body....................................

 

One astrologer had told me I would be reborn in the same

family I am now in. So I was curious and read this book. I am nobody

to be commenting on these topics. However I find it does not say

anything which we cannot already find out from jyotish. Even though

I am a novice, I find jyotish an amazing science. I dream of doing a

course in astrology some day when I have enough guts! I am grateful

to all you people who let me have two worlds in my life which is a

necessity for me. Through your writings, I am privileged to find

some time in my life where I can stay in touch with good samskaras

which is a difficult thing given the life I have been given.

 

Towards the destination of realization of Self,

Regards,

Sharmistha

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thanks for an interesting post.

Manoj

 

sharmistha_mohanty <sharmistha_mohanty > wrote:

Dear members of the list,

Here is something you might find interesting. These are all

difficult topics but I found some portions of this book quite in the

reach of a layman like me. The following is taken from Pt Rajmani

Tigunait's "From Death to Birth" Understanding Karma and

Reincarnation published by the Himalayan Institute Press.

 

....The train of thought at the moment of death

determines the exact nature of the next birth. How we go out

determines how we come back. Samskaras determine the train of

thought a person will have at the time of death. When the prana or

life force departs, the conscious mind becomes lifeless and the jiva

is left with the unconscious mind.

 

There are realms of awareness to which we go if we are

not reborn right after death. The ideas of pleasure and pain, which

are simply conditions of the mind continue to exist in these realms.

In the interval after death we are in the realm of our unconscious,

experiencing pain or pleasure until the strongest among the subtle

impressions of our karmas gathers momentum and pushes us in the

direction of rebirth...

 

....The flow of prana during the time of death is regulated

by the forces of our karma. This determines the particular gate

through which the pranic force departs, and this in turn shapes the

journey that follows. We can make some predictions about the

destination of the departed soul by observing the movement of prana

and the precise time it leaves the body. In most of us, the higher

chakras or gates have become entangled and knotted, but they can be

disentangled with the help of meditation, contemplation, prayer,

selfless service, acts of charity, blessings of saints and God's

grace.

 

....The doctrine of karma is not fatalistic. On the

contrast, it proclaims that divine Providence helps those who help

themselves. If we use our present level of freedom with full

determination and faith, nature begins to grant us a wider range of

freedom. That is how we evolve spiritually. By listening to our

inner voice and consulting scriptures and saints to confirm its

validity, we can arrive at the right understanding of our actions.

If we perform our present actions selflessly, lovingly and

skillfully we attenuate old unwholesome karmas and generate new,

positive and uplifting karmas. This is karma yoga. Actions performed

on this path cannot change the path of destiny in our present life -

destiny has already predetermined our birth, longevity and other

aspects of our fate. But such actions can minimize the influence of

the secondary strands of our destiny.

 

....By itself, karma yoga is a long drawn out way of

freeing ourselves from the bondage of karma. Even the noblest act of

nonviolence and compassion involves some degree of pain to someone,

somewhere- there is no action completely devoid of negative karmic

effects. But we cannot bypass karma yoga - it helps us earn

virtues, which in turn draw God's grace toward us in the form of

right thinking( vichara ) and meeting wise people( satsanga ). When

a student is prepared, the Master appears. Selfless service is the

means of preparation. However the paths of meditation, knowledge,

devotion and surrender to God are paths which lead directly to the

destination. Each of these when pursued with diligence, is like a

keen sword which cuts asunder all the ropes of karma.

 

....The purpose of life is to realize our true self – that

which is divine and one with the universal self. If we have

accomplished this, we are reabsorbed into the immortal self at the

time of death and are free from the journey after life...

 

....There are many stories of miraculous transformations

involving those who had been dedicated to an intense practice in a

previous life. These people seem to acquire great spiritual wisdom

with minimal effort in this lifetime, and we wonder why, failing to

comprehend the intense effort they have put into their sadhana in

the past. Because they seem to achieve a great success with little

effort, we say they are blessed. We attribute their present success

to God's grace alone. The truth is that such people have

reincarnated rather than being reborn...

 

....Then there are the fortunate few who after dedicating

themselves to intense practice, achieve the goal, the realization of

the Self at every level. Through their practice and God's grace,

they unveil the mystery of the body, pranic forces, mind, samskaras,

and consciousness, as well as the relationship between the

individual and universal consciousness. As this knowledge dawns, the

darkness of ignorance, egoism, attachment, aversion and fear of

death totally vanishes. Then the unconscious mind can no longer bind

the soul to the body....................................

 

 

 

One astrologer had told me I would be reborn in the same

family I am now in. So I was curious and read this book. I am nobody

to be commenting on these topics. However I find it does not say

anything which we cannot already find out from jyotish. Even though

I am a novice, I find jyotish an amazing science. I dream of doing a

course in astrology some day when I have enough guts! I am grateful

to all you people who let me have two worlds in my life which is a

necessity for me. Through your writings, I am privileged to find

some time in my life where I can stay in touch with good samskaras

which is a difficult thing given the life I have been given.

 

Towards the destination of realization of Self,

Regards,

Sharmistha