Guest guest Posted April 14, 2000 Report Share Posted April 14, 2000 Mother Madhusudani Radha wrote: > > Besides, this constant quoting of rules that Prabhupada himself > > de-emphasized when he was teaching us (he certainly chanted japa both > > while walking and wearing shoes) somehow implies that we know better > > than him how to do this process. Vijaya-venugopala Prabhu wrote: > I agree with this. Let's stick to what Srila Prabhupada taught us by his > example, and books, and not try to tighten the screws on different > fronts, which was not Srila Prabhupada's mood at all. How do you conclude that Prabhupada de-emphasized the quoting of rules from the HBV? Give me a single quote where Prabhupada says that injunctions from the HBV are not to be taken seriously. Prabhupada (& his Guru Maharaj also) not only taught but also instructed us 100s of times to follow the rules from HBV even about japa which were presently discussing. "The seventeenth vilasa discusses preparations for Deity worship, maha-mantra chanting and the process of japa." (Cc Madhya 1.35 purp) You don't want to follow rules about japa from HBV then why are you trying to follow the rules of arcana from the HBV. The Pancaratrika Pradipa is based on HBV. Don't accept half of a hen. One may not be able to follow some rules but he can't say that they that are not important or to be de-emphasized. There are 100s of more quotes regarding this but I will post a few of them as I have a paucity of time. By making this type of comments you are minimizing the Hari-bhakti-vilasa which is our guide to standard Vaisnava behaviour according to Srila Prabhupada. In the quotes which follow, Prabhupada describes the instructions from Hari-bhakti-vilasa as: (1) Following Vaisnava rituals perfectly (2) Authorized Vedic guide for Vaisnavas in their daily behavior (3) Sound advice to go back to Godhead (4) Detailed info. about arcana etc. (5) The standard behavior of a devotee (6) The full extent of a Vaisnava's duty. (7) HBV strictly follows the Vedic scriptures (8) HBV is certainly pure (9) Completely in compliance with the instructions of Caitanya Mahaprabhu (10)Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami followed HBV strictly (11)The guiding principle of all Vaisnavas. (12)SG received the power to compile HBV when LC placed His hand on his head (13)The book should be consulted as far as possible. (14)Authoritative scriptural injunctions regarding how a Vaisnava should behave. (15)The conclusion of pure Vaisnava understanding (16)HBV conclusions are opposed by the atheistic karmis After reading Srila Prabhupada's quotes given below if you still hold on to your opinion that the injunctions given in the HBV are not important for us then I have nothing more to say. Hare Krsna! __________________________ QUOTES The seventeenth vilasa discusses preparations for Deity worship, maha-mantra chanting and the process of japa. (Cc Madhya 1.35 purp) It is Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami's opinion, however, that to follow the Hari-bhakti-vilasa strictly is to actually follow the Vaisnava rituals in perfect order.(Cc Madhya 1.35 purp) Even in India, this point has been enunciated by Srila Sanatana Gosvami in his book Hari-bhakti-vilasa, which is smrti and is the authorized Vedic guide for Vaisnavas in their daily behavior. (SB 4.8.54 purp) Indeed, Srila Sanatana Gosvami compiled his Hari-bhakti-vilasa for the guidance of the Vaisnavas. The Vaisnavas, not caring for the lifeless activities of the priestly classes, take to full Krsna consciousness and become perfect in this very life. That is described in the previous verse as paramahamsa-saranam, taking shelter of the paramahamsa, the liberated soul, and becoming successful in this life. (SB 4.29.56 purp) Srila Sanatana Gosvami has therefore compiled Hari-bhakti-vilasa to guide the Vaisnavas, who never follow the smarta-viddhi. Although the Supreme Lord is situated in the core of everyone's heart, unless one is a Vaisnava, unless one is engaged in devotional service, one does not get sound advice by which to return home, back to Godhead. Such instructions are meant only for devotees. (SB 8.20.14 purp) One can acquire detailed information of proper and improper foods to offer in Deity worship by consulting Sri Hari-bhakti-vilasa, Eighth vilasa, verses 152-164. (SB 11.27.34 Purp) Another famous book by Sanatana Gosvami is the Hari-bhakti-vilasa, which states the rules and regulations for all divisions of Vaisnavas, namely, Vaisnava householders, Vaisnava brahmacaris, Vaisnava vanaprasthas and Vaisnava sannyasis. This book was especially written, however, for Vaisnava householders. (Cc Adi 5.203 purp) Lord Caitanya taught Sanatana Gosvami in the line of disciplic succession. Sanatana Gosvami was a very learned scholar in Sanskrit and other languages, but until instructed by Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu he did not write anything about Vaisnava behavior. His very famous book Hari-bhakti-vilasa, which gives directions for Vaisnava candidates, was written completely in compliance with the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. (Cc Adi 7.47) In this way Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu blessed Sanatana Gosvami, placing His hand on his head. Thus Sanatana received the power to describe these subjects in books like Hari-bhakti-vilasa. (Cc Madhya 23, intro) After this, the Lord gave Sanatana Gosvami a synopsis of Hari-bhakti-vilasa, which Sanatana Gosvami later developed into the guiding principle of all Vaisnavas. (Cc Madhya 24, intro) All these are mentioned in the Hari-bhakti-vilasa. The eighth vilasa of that book should be consulted as far as possible.(Cc Madhya 24.337) Second, he compiled the Hari-bhakti-vilasa, wherein he collected authoritative scriptural injunctions regarding how a Vaisnava should behave. (Cc Antya 4.81) Cc Antya 4.21 `hari-bhakti-vilasa'-grantha kaila vaisnava-acara vaisnavera kartavya yahan paiye para He also compiled the Hari-bhakti-vilasa, from which we can understand the standard behavior of a devotee and the full extent of a Vaisnava's duty. (Purp) What is recorded in the Hari-bhakti-vilasa strictly follows the Vedic scriptures and is certainly pure, but the attitude of the karmis is always one of giving up the conclusion of pure Vaisnava understanding. Because the karmis are very much attached to the world and material activities, they always try to establish atheistic principles that oppose the understanding of the Vaisnavas. __________________________ Your servant, Nayana-ranjana das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2000 Report Share Posted April 14, 2000 Sri Sri Guru Gaurangau Jayatah! Does anybody know if a complete English translation of Hari Bhakti Vilasa is available. I have checked the file (hbv.zip) on this conference but it is incomplete. Your servant, Gauridas Adhikari > Mother Madhusudani Radha wrote: > > > > Besides, this constant quoting of rules that Prabhupada himself > > > de-emphasized when he was teaching us (he certainly chanted japa both > > > while walking and wearing shoes) somehow implies that we know better > > > than him how to do this process. > > Vijaya-venugopala Prabhu wrote: > > > I agree with this. Let's stick to what Srila Prabhupada taught us by his > > example, and books, and not try to tighten the screws on different > > fronts, which was not Srila Prabhupada's mood at all. > > How do you conclude that Prabhupada de-emphasized the quoting of > rules from > the HBV? Give me a single quote where Prabhupada says that > injunctions from > the HBV are not to be taken seriously. Prabhupada (& his Guru > Maharaj also) > not only taught but also instructed us 100s of times to follow the rules > from HBV even about japa which were presently discussing. > > "The seventeenth vilasa discusses preparations for Deity worship, > maha-mantra chanting and the process of japa." (Cc Madhya 1.35 purp) > > You don't want to follow rules about japa from HBV then why are you trying > to follow the rules of arcana from the HBV. The Pancaratrika Pradipa is > based on HBV. Don't accept half of a hen. One may not be able to follow > some rules but he can't say that they that are not important or to be > de-emphasized. > > There are 100s of more quotes regarding this but I will post a few of them > as I have a paucity of time. By making this type of comments you are > minimizing the Hari-bhakti-vilasa which is our guide to standard Vaisnava > behaviour according to Srila Prabhupada. In the quotes which follow, > Prabhupada describes the instructions from Hari-bhakti-vilasa as: > > (1) Following Vaisnava rituals perfectly > (2) Authorized Vedic guide for Vaisnavas in their daily behavior > (3) Sound advice to go back to Godhead > (4) Detailed info. about arcana etc. > (5) The standard behavior of a devotee > (6) The full extent of a Vaisnava's duty. > (7) HBV strictly follows the Vedic scriptures > (8) HBV is certainly pure > (9) Completely in compliance with the instructions of Caitanya Mahaprabhu > (10)Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami followed HBV strictly > (11)The guiding principle of all Vaisnavas. > (12)SG received the power to compile HBV when LC placed His hand > on his head > (13)The book should be consulted as far as possible. > (14)Authoritative scriptural injunctions regarding how a Vaisnava should > behave. > (15)The conclusion of pure Vaisnava understanding > (16)HBV conclusions are opposed by the atheistic karmis > > > After reading Srila Prabhupada's quotes given below if you still > hold on to > your opinion that the injunctions given in the HBV are not > important for us > then I have nothing more to say. Hare Krsna! > > ________________ > __________ > > QUOTES > > > The seventeenth vilasa discusses preparations for Deity worship, > maha-mantra > chanting and the process of japa. (Cc Madhya 1.35 purp) > > It is Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami's opinion, however, that to > follow the Hari-bhakti-vilasa strictly is to actually follow the Vaisnava > rituals in perfect order.(Cc Madhya 1.35 purp) > > Even in India, this point has been enunciated by Srila Sanatana Gosvami in > his book Hari-bhakti-vilasa, which is smrti and is the authorized Vedic > guide for Vaisnavas in their daily behavior. (SB 4.8.54 purp) > > Indeed, Srila Sanatana Gosvami compiled his Hari-bhakti-vilasa for the > guidance of the Vaisnavas. The Vaisnavas, not caring for the lifeless > activities of the priestly classes, take to full Krsna consciousness and > become perfect in this very life. That is described in the > previous verse as > paramahamsa-saranam, taking shelter of the paramahamsa, the > liberated soul, > and becoming successful in this life. (SB 4.29.56 purp) > > Srila Sanatana Gosvami has therefore compiled Hari-bhakti-vilasa to guide > the Vaisnavas, who never follow the smarta-viddhi. Although the > Supreme Lord > is situated in the core of everyone's heart, unless one is a Vaisnava, > unless one is engaged in devotional service, one does not get sound advice > by which to return home, back to Godhead. Such instructions are meant only > for devotees. (SB 8.20.14 purp) > > One can acquire detailed information of proper and improper foods to offer > in Deity worship by consulting Sri Hari-bhakti-vilasa, Eighth > vilasa, verses > 152-164. (SB 11.27.34 Purp) > > Another famous book by Sanatana Gosvami is the Hari-bhakti-vilasa, which > states the rules and regulations for all divisions of Vaisnavas, namely, > Vaisnava householders, Vaisnava brahmacaris, Vaisnava vanaprasthas and > Vaisnava sannyasis. This book was especially written, however, > for Vaisnava > householders. (Cc Adi 5.203 purp) > > Lord Caitanya taught Sanatana Gosvami in the line of disciplic succession. > Sanatana Gosvami was a very learned scholar in Sanskrit and other > languages, > but until instructed by Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu he did not write anything > about Vaisnava behavior. His very famous book Hari-bhakti-vilasa, which > gives directions for Vaisnava candidates, was written completely in > compliance with the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. (Cc Adi 7.47) > > In this way Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu blessed Sanatana Gosvami, placing His > hand on his head. Thus Sanatana received the power to describe these > subjects in books like Hari-bhakti-vilasa. (Cc Madhya 23, intro) > > After this, the Lord gave Sanatana Gosvami a synopsis of > Hari-bhakti-vilasa, > which Sanatana Gosvami later developed into the guiding principle of all > Vaisnavas. (Cc Madhya 24, intro) > > All these are mentioned in the Hari-bhakti-vilasa. The eighth > vilasa of that > book should be consulted as far as possible.(Cc Madhya 24.337) > > Second, he compiled the Hari-bhakti-vilasa, wherein he collected > authoritative scriptural injunctions regarding how a Vaisnava > should behave. > (Cc Antya 4.81) > > Cc Antya 4.21 > > `hari-bhakti-vilasa'-grantha kaila vaisnava-acara > vaisnavera kartavya yahan paiye para > > He also compiled the Hari-bhakti-vilasa, from which we can understand the > standard behavior of a devotee and the full extent of a Vaisnava's duty. > > (Purp) What is recorded in the Hari-bhakti-vilasa strictly > follows the Vedic > scriptures and is certainly pure, but the attitude of the karmis is always > one of giving up the conclusion of pure Vaisnava understanding. > Because the > karmis are very much attached to the world and material activities, they > always try to establish atheistic principles that oppose the understanding > of the Vaisnavas. > ________________ > __________ > > > Your servant, > Nayana-ranjana das > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2000 Report Share Posted April 14, 2000 >Mother Madhusudani Radha wrote: > > > > Besides, this constant quoting of rules that Prabhupada himself > > > de-emphasized when he was teaching us (he certainly chanted japa both > > > while walking and wearing shoes) somehow implies that we know better > > > than him how to do this process. At 3:13 +0000 4/14/2000, Nayana-ranjana (das) (BBT Bombay - IN) wrote: >How do you conclude that Prabhupada de-emphasized the quoting of rules from >the HBV? You misunderstand the sentence above, which is understandable if English is not your first language. No one has said that Prabhupada de-emphasized quoting from HBV. I was referring to the specific rules themselves. Or do you have evidence that Prabhupada wanted us to stop chanting with our shoes on or while walking? Srila Prabhupada certainly knew all the rules out there in various scriptures and he adapted them in a way that would allow us to advance spiritually and that was perfect to time, place and circumstance. So if Prabhupada, through his example and instructions, said that we could chant during japa walks (to give one example), who are we to say that this is not allowed? >After reading Srila Prabhupada's quotes given below if you still hold on to >your opinion that the injunctions given in the HBV are not important for us >then I have nothing more to say. Hare Krsna! You are creating a straw man. No one has said that Prabhupada stated that these are unimportant. However, in all the quotes you provided, I still saw nothing about not being able to cross our limbs during japa, or not being able to walk - or wear shoes for that matter. It's the introduction of rules that contradict Srila Prabhupada's own example that is making some of us uncomfortable. Ys, Madhusudani dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2000 Report Share Posted April 14, 2000 What is the problem? There are so many rules and regulations we cannot follow and Prabhupada gave us the mininmum and even by this we struggle to follow. But some us are more advanced and want to strive for a higher standard, what is wrong with that? Personally I struggle with the minimum, but like to hear details for higher braminicil behaviour. After reading manu-samhita I felt very down to earth and thankful for what I got in my fallen position as outcaste. I think tolerance and recognition of different positions are the key. ys Nigraha das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2000 Report Share Posted April 14, 2000 > What is the problem? > There are so many rules and regulations we cannot follow and Prabhupada > gave us the mininmum and even by this we struggle to follow. > But some us are more advanced and want to strive for a higher standard, > what is wrong with that? > Personally I struggle with the minimum, but like to hear details for > higher braminicil behaviour. > After reading manu-samhita I felt very down to earth and thankful for > what I got in my fallen position as outcaste. > I think tolerance and recognition of different positions are the key. > > ys Nigraha das Exactly, if Nayana Prabhu post nice texts, we should not be disturbed that we can't follow. But by this we, mlecha, may remain humble and give credit to brahmanas who do follow. If someone wants to engage more and more in pure devotional service, all these rules come with help. Anyway, i do not like all these disscusions on this conference. I asked Sysop to make me moderator again. Your servant Dvarkadhis das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2000 Report Share Posted April 14, 2000 At 10:35 +0200 4/14/2000, Nigraha (das) (Braunschweig - D) wrote: >What is the problem? The problem when people start thinking they know better than Srila Prabhupada exactly what "higher standards" are >But some us are more advanced and want to strive for a higher standard, >what is wrong with that? Nothing, providing you know what that is. Again, Prabhupada didn't practice these rules himself when chanting japa as far as I know. Or does someone have evidence thast he did and that he thought that should be the next step? >After reading manu-samhita I felt very down to earth and thankful for >what I got in my fallen position as outcaste. Could you please provide a quote where Prabhupada encouraged us to think of ourselves as "outcastes". That does not fit with the B.G., nor with Lord Caitanya's message, nor with the fact that everyone is born fallen in kali yuga. >I think tolerance and recognition of different positions are the key. I have no problem with people who want to go off on their own and read the M.S. or try to chant without crossing their limbs, or who want to chant barefoot. However, if someone says that these are higher or better standards than what Prabhupada gave us, then they'd better be able to provide some evidence. So far I have seen none. Ys, Madhusudani dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2000 Report Share Posted April 14, 2000 > Anyway, i do not like all these disscusions on this conference. I asked > Sysop to make me moderator again. > > Your servant > Dvarkadhis das Very good. Please do it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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