Guest guest Posted October 20, 2000 Report Share Posted October 20, 2000 "Mahamantra (das) ACBSP (Vrindavan - IN)" wrote: > > Is it true the other way around too. If one's Guru asks one not to get > > married, and one gets married anyway. Any scriptural references? YHS Vpd > > h Yes, devotees got married and had hard times - to a great degree because the leadership of the society was heavily influenced by misogynist early disciples of Srila Prabhupada. Time for the soicety to grow up a little and not apply instructions meant for immature bramacaris to capable adults. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2000 Report Share Posted October 24, 2000 Hare Krishna PAMHO, AGTSP Prabhuji, calling those disciples of Srila Prabhupada as "immature brahmcharis" is bit too much. Srila Prabhupada did mention in his books about the hardships and problems one might face if one gets married. Does that mean he was only writing for some immature brahmcharis or for all of us? Ofcourse, a good grihasta is far better than a bad brahmchari, but that doesn't imply that everyone should get married or remain brahmchari. I guess one's guru is in a better position to decide on that. Just my $0.02 worth YHS VPd > > "Mahamantra (das) ACBSP (Vrindavan - IN)" wrote: > > > > Is it true the other way around too. If one's Guru asks one not to > > > get married, and one gets married anyway. Any scriptural references? > > > YHS Vpd > > > > h > > Yes, devotees got married and had hard times - to a great degree because > the leadership of the society was heavily influenced by misogynist early > disciples of Srila Prabhupada. Time for the soicety to grow up a little > and not apply instructions meant for immature bramacaris to capable > adults. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2000 Report Share Posted October 24, 2000 "Vidura Priya (das) (Dallas TX - US)" wrote: > Hare Krishna > PAMHO, AGTSP > Prabhuji, calling those disciples of Srila Prabhupada as "immature > brahmcharis" is bit too much. Extrapolating that a specific instruction for a specific devotee is meant to be generalized is what is too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2000 Report Share Posted October 24, 2000 At 01:07 PM 10/24/00 -0500, Vidura Priya (das) (Dallas TX - US) wrote: > Ofcourse, a good grihasta is far better than a bad brahmchari, According to Prabhupada, a good grhasta is as good as a good brahmacari (if by "good" you mean "following") >I guess one's guru is in a better position to decide on that. Is that necessarily true? Do you mean that we need to wait for our gurus to tell us if we should or should not get married? I thought at least sannyasis (which is by far the most common asrama among ISKCON gurus) shouldn't get too involved in householder issues. I know some ISKCON gurus delegate that responsibility to senior grhastas. Ys, Madhusudani dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2000 Report Share Posted October 25, 2000 On 24 Oct 2000, Madhusudani Radha wrote: > Is that necessarily true? Do you mean that we need to wait for our gurus > to tell us if we should or should not get married? I thought at least > sannyasis (which is by far the most common asrama among ISKCON gurus) > shouldn't get too involved in householder issues. I know some ISKCON gurus > delegate that responsibility to senior grhastas. Also I have heard, that Srila Prabhupada said if someone is *thinking* whether he should get married *or* not then he should better get married. I do not have a ready quote on that. YHS Bhadra Govinda Das. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2000 Report Share Posted November 2, 2000 > According to Prabhupada, a good grhasta is as good as a good brahmacari > (if by "good" you mean "following") by "good" I meant one who is following the principles. > >I guess one's guru is in a better position to decide on that. > > Is that necessarily true? Do you mean that we need to wait for our gurus > to tell us if we should or should not get married? I thought at least > sannyasis (which is by far the most common asrama among ISKCON gurus) > shouldn't get too involved in householder issues. I know some ISKCON > gurus delegate that responsibility to senior grhastas. Then again it's Guru who is delegating that responsibility to senior grhastas. YHS VPd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2000 Report Share Posted November 4, 2000 "Mahamantra (das) ACBSP (Vrindavan - IN)" wrote: > > Extrapolating that a specific instruction for a specific devotee is meant > > to be generalized is what is too much. > > The above statement *may apply* In the case of Vishala's talks with > Prabhupada. > > But with the talks with the 80 or so Brahmacaries under TKG's direction in > 1975, It was not a 'specific instruction for a specific devotee' it was a > general instruction meant to encourage all brahmacaries. > > Otherwise what other meaning can anyone ascribe to Prabhupada's intentions > when he clearly spoke both in the beginning and at the end beaming widely as > he spoke. "My Guru Maharaja, very much liked this brahmacari life." He said > it *twice*. that means he was emphasising it once again for every > brahmacaries *general* benefit in ISKCON. > > Please differenciate when you make those statements. > > ys MMDASBR My statement is meant specificaly to refer to specific statements. If a statement is general, then it is not applicable. We also see where the broader view of scripture shows that brahmacary life is a midpoint and not an endpoint. It is student life. If during student life we give no instructions on how to be anything other than a student, and treat everyone leaving student life as a failure, that sets the stage for a high level of failure in post student life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2000 Report Share Posted November 4, 2000 One reason I didn't reply to your first response is that your first statement was to try to position me as being critical of Srila Prabhupada. That was counterproductive on your part. That sort of witch hunting type statement has become way too popular in ISKCON and neo ISKCON these days. I have come to the conclusion that dialogue on that level is a waste of my time. The second reason was that you then spent the body of the e mail making all my points for me, basically agreeing with what I said. So being in agreement, no reply was necessary. "Mahamantra (das) ACBSP (Vrindavan - IN)" wrote: > > Extrapolating that a specific instruction for a specific devotee is meant > > to be generalized is what is too much. > > The above statement *may apply* In the case of Vishala's talks with > Prabhupada. > > But with the talks with the 80 or so Brahmacaries under TKG's direction in > 1975, It was not a 'specific instruction for a specific devotee' it was a > general instruction meant to encourage all brahmacaries. > > Otherwise what other meaning can anyone ascribe to Prabhupada's intentions > when he clearly spoke both in the beginning and at the end beaming widely as > he spoke. "My Guru Maharaja, very much liked this brahmacari life." He said > it *twice*. that means he was emphasising it once again for every > brahmacaries *general* benefit in ISKCON. > > Please differenciate when you make those statements. > > ys MMDASBR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2000 Report Share Posted November 6, 2000 > Another example is that of Dhruva denying Narada: > > My dear lord, I am very impudent for not accepting your instructions, but > this is not my fault. It is due to my having been born in a ksatriya > family. My stepmother, Suruci, has pierced my heart with her harsh words. > Therefore your valuable instruction does not stand in my heart. > > >>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 4.8.36 This is an interesting case. I would argue that at the time when Dhruva told Narada that he was disinclined to accept his well-intentioned advice, Narada was not yet acting as Dhruva's spiritual master. It is in fact only after Dhruva rejected the proposal to return home, that Dhruva openly accepted Narada as his guru. Dhruva, in verses 37 and 38, glorifies Narada, begs for instructions and thereby shows that he is willing to surrender. Only after that, does Narada really act as Dhruva's guru, and he initiates him by mantra-diksa. If there was a case that Dhruva rejected Narada's instructions after initiation, then I would agree that Dhruva is an example of denying the guru's order. Narada certainly was a guru, when he first spoke to Dhruva, but he wasn't Dhruva's guru. ys end Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 13, 2000 Report Share Posted November 13, 2000 > > > If there was a case that Dhruva rejected Narada's instructions > after > > initiation, then I would agree that Dhruva is an example of > denying > > the guru's order. Narada certainly was a guru, when he first spoke > to > > Dhruva, but he wasn't Dhruva's guru. > > Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. > > Thank you for pointing out the important point that surrender is > voluntary and cannot be legislated or enforced. > > I would like to ask a question if that is okay. I was wondering > about > Dhruva Maharaj's performing devotional service. At first he went to > the > forest, completely determined to see the Supreme Lord, by the > inspiration > of his mother Sunitha. Was he already aware of devotional service > because > of being raised as a King's son? >From the beginning of life means... Actually, our life begins at the age of five years. According to Canakya Pandita’s niti, it is said that the boys, the children, should be given complete freedom to do anything he likes up to five years, not more than that. Lalayet panca-varsani: “Up to five years a child should be given all freedom.” Never mind however miscreant he may be. But from five years to fifteen years—that means a period of ten years—tadayet. Lalayet panca-varsani tadayet dasa-varsani: “You should give all freedom to your child for five years, and then, next ten years, you should be very strict, very strict, so that the child may be very much afraid. And as soon as he attains sixteen years of age, then you should treat him like friend, not, I mean to say, so strictly.” These are the moral instruction by Canakya Pandita. Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.5.1, Pandal Lecture -- Bombay, January 12, 1973 It seems from this statement that Druva may not have previously been educated about devotional service in any formal manner. If his father was still pampering him and his brother, as we see from the story, it would seem that there had not been the introduction of the instructing stage. However, it is possible that the boy Druva had received some if not much instruction, since his father was somewhat negligent of him when he attempted to sit on his lap, which may indicate that he was in the second stage spoken of by Chanakya. > And how does Lord Krishna consider > devotional service to Him, before one meets his initiating spiritual > master? C.C. Madhya-lila 15.108 diksa-purascarya-vidhi apeksa na kare jihva-sparse a-candala sabare uddhare SYNONYMS diksa -- initiation; purascarya -- activities before initiation; vidhi -- regulative principles; apeksa -- reliance on; na -- not; kare -- does; jihva -- the tongue; sparse -- by touching; a-candala -- even the lowest of men, the candala; sabare -- everyone; uddhare -- delivers. TRANSLATION "One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered. Read the purport for further details > Sunitha was his first spiritual guide, but it was not formal > initiation. Can a person advance within devotional service without an > initiating guru, but with instructions from a siksha guru? If it were not true that one could advance in devotional service without formal initiation, then there would be no use of preaching or engaging people in ajnata-sukriti (pious activities on the spiritual platform which are unknown to the performer), since no one could advance from the stage of sraddha (initial faith) to later stages such as sadhu sanga (saintly association), and bhajana-kriya (initiation), without being initiated (which is the third stage of advancement). However, one should have diksa in order to pass through anarta-nivriti (removal of the dirty things in the heart) and all subsequent stages leading up to prema (pure love of godhead). ys, Bhavasindhu dasa ______________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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