Guest guest Posted November 13, 2000 Report Share Posted November 13, 2000 On 12 Nov 2000, Madhusudani Radha wrote: Madhusudani Mataji wrote: > Unfortunately, this kind of thinking, while sastrically correct, has caused > problems throughout ISKCON's history, when it's been applied. E.g when > Hansadutta went into a liquor shop, his disciples were convinced this was > somehow OK. It was also similar beliefs that allowed Kirtanananda to > continue with his harmful activities for as long as he did. We can't > surrender our intelligence, just because we accept a guru. It will be more unfortunate and more harmful if every disciple suspects his/her guru in good standing, citing your above examples. I agree with you that blind faith is not good. Your humble servant, Bhadra Govinda Das. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2000 Report Share Posted November 14, 2000 At 11:38 PM 11/14/00 +0300, Gauridas Adhikari wrote: >O, certainly we must! More so, we should surrender our SOULS at the lotus >feet of Sri Guru. Your concerns are very valid and important but all such >consideration should be done BEFORE accepting a guru. After the acceptance >any such thought is Guru-aparadha and Nama-aparadha and will most certainly >damage one's spiritual life. Uh-oh. Tell that to the disciples of Kirtananda, Hansadutta, Ramesvara, Jayatirtha et al. How could they have anticipated their deviations before taking initiation? Does that mean you think they should become fanatical zombies, refusing to see when their gurus misbehaved? Our source of evidence for appropriate behaviors is not guru-guru-guru, but rather guru-sadhu-sastra. If we see deviations - even in our gurus-, we have a duty to speak out (in a humble way of course), rather than assuming that gurus drinking alcohol, having sex, breaking the law etc are somehow just performing some kind of transcendental lila. If we don't conntinue to use our intelligence, we deserve to be labeled a destructive cult indeed. Ys, Madhusudani dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2000 Report Share Posted November 16, 2000 Last week I had send this out to some friends outside COM. Just for sharing here. "Anyone who is engaged in the devotional service, whose life is dedicated for service of the Supreme, you will see practically that there will be no want, there will be no unhappiness. This is a fact. This is a fact." ----Srila Prabhupada. Read further ...... I have taken practical information. In 1942 there was a manufactured famine in Bengal by the manipulation of the then government. It is for the first time we experienced that India... In our childhood, when we were children, at that time the first-class rice was selling three dollars for 82 pounds. Can you imagine? Three dollars. Not three dollars, I mean to say, dollar is exchange. Say, for less than one dollar, three-fourth dollar. Three rupees. Three rupees. The exchange of dollar and rupees is: five rupees make one dollar. Now, it was selling at 3.8. So about, I mean to, 75 cent. 75 cent for 82 pounds of best rice. I have seen it in my experiencing of life. When I was a boy in India it was selling. Can you imagine that? But that rice all of a sudden rose in 1940, ten dollars. Now, just imagine if something, the price of something, is raised from 75 cent to ten dollars, how difficult it becomes for the public, for general mass of people. So so many people were in difficulty, and so many people died for want of food, diseases, famine, because when there is want of food... But you will be surprised... I inquired in 1942. Persons who were in our line, I mean to say, engaged in devotional service... I also purchased at the same time. I had... In my family life at that time, I had some responsibility: my self, my wife, my five children, servant, and so many, about ten people. And I was purchasing rice. So anyway, management was going on. But so many people died. But you will be surprised. Those who were in some way or other in touch with the devotional service, I inquired from them individually, and I was satisfied that they were not in difficulty even in that famine circumstances. Even from the villages I inquired that “Were you in difficulty?” They replied, “No, we have no difficulty. Some way or other, we are managing.” So this is practical. Anyone who is engaged in the devotional service, whose life is dedicated for service of the Supreme, you will see practically that there will be no want, there will be no unhappiness. This is a fact. This is a fact. -----------Srila Prabhupada. Your humble servant, Bhadra Govinda Das. > CB Madhya lila > > 15-16. "Even if Nityänanda is a drunkard, and even if > my noble birth, my life, and my wealth all perish because of Him, > in my heart I will not think badly of Him. I will not think He is > at all different from You. What I tell You is the truth. It is > the truth." > 17. Hearing these words from Çréväsa's mouth, Lord Caitanya > stood up and roared. > 18. The Lord aid, "Çréväsa Paëòita, what did you > say? You have faith in Nityänanda? > 19. "You have understood the secret of Nityänanda. I > am pleased. I give you this boon: > 20. "Even if Goddess Lakñmé goes begging from town > to town, poverty will never enter your home. > 21. "Even the dogs, cats, and other animals in your > house will find peace in My devotional service. > 22. "I place Nityänanda in your home. Please serve > Him in every way." > 23. After giving this boon to Çréväsa, Lord Caitanya > returned home. Lord Nityänanda requalrly wandered in the villages > of Nadéyä. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2000 Report Share Posted November 18, 2000 You are right. We shouldn't be blind zombies. And of course the knowledge that we get comes from guru/sadhu/sastra. But the mercy to chant Harinama and the ability to surrender to the lotus feet of Sri Sri Radha Krishna we can get only from Sri Guru. Not from just any guru, though. Guru means "heavy", so we must look for the real Guru if we are serious about our spiritual life. How do we find one? Well,... sukriti and lots of prayers to the Chaitya Guru, Sri Bhagavan. Then he will send the Mahanta Guru to the sincere person. Such position is very difficult to accept because we try to view everything from the perspective of familiar social and logical standards of this world. We are not used to such thinking. But according to guru/sadhu/sastra it is the only possible way of finding a real Guru. Again, I would like to refer you to Srila Sridhara Maharaja's book "Sri Guru and His Grace", which I am sure you have already read. If we are so unfortunate as to see confirmed deviations in the behavior of our gurus we should immediately give up such pseudo-gurus and move on with our spiritual life (according to Hari Bhakti Vilasa). I don't think we should speak out but rather step out. This is my humble version of an answer for the followers of all those fallen gurus you've mentioned. How could they have anticipated their deviations before taking initiation? Well, the key is sukriti and sadhu-sanga. We should have real sadhu-sanga in order to develop a good judgment in such matters. But where do we find such sadhu-sanga? Our sukriti will take us there. We should definitely use our intelligence but not at the cost of suspecting our Gurus of maybe being deviant. If we see a confirmed deviation, then we must take action. But if we live with some black thoughts, the whole thing about accepting a Guru is kind of useless, isn't it? Guru is Lord Nityananda Himself, whether we accept this idea or not. If we don't treat Him as such then why accept him in the first place? You may say, how Kirtananandas & Co. were Lord Nityananda, according to my idea? But why do we need to believe that they were ever real gurus? Accepting a Guru is like getting married: you don't marry just some boy or girl you meet on the street (or in Hare Krishna temple), you wait for the Special One. Of course, there are people out there who do just that -- marry total strangers. For them there is no cure... Your servant, Gauridas > At 11:38 PM 11/14/00 +0300, Gauridas Adhikari wrote: > >O, certainly we must! More so, we should surrender our SOULS at the lotus > >feet of Sri Guru. Your concerns are very valid and important but all such > >consideration should be done BEFORE accepting a guru. After the > acceptance > >any such thought is Guru-aparadha and Nama-aparadha and will > most certainly > >damage one's spiritual life. > > Uh-oh. Tell that to the disciples of Kirtananda, Hansadutta, Ramesvara, > Jayatirtha et al. How could they have anticipated their deviations before > taking initiation? Does that mean you think they should become fanatical > zombies, refusing to see when their gurus misbehaved? Our source of > evidence for appropriate behaviors is not guru-guru-guru, but rather > guru-sadhu-sastra. If we see deviations - even in our gurus-, we have a > duty to speak out (in a humble way of course), rather than assuming that > gurus drinking alcohol, having sex, breaking the law etc are somehow just > performing some kind of transcendental lila. If we don't > conntinue to use > our intelligence, we deserve to be labeled a destructive cult indeed. > > Ys, > Madhusudani dasi > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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