Caste no bar in Tamil Nadu....yes!!!!!

[Guest guest]

The new govt, just passed a law....anyone can become priests at temples regardless of caste! This is amazing! All of India needs to do this. I hope there will bw more action done to make sure all castes become one!

[Guest guest]

i agree, great step forward

[mahakala]

any source to substantiate the post

[Guest guest]

Awesome news if it's true! there is no caste in reality! we are all the same in our soul essence! and we are all part of the Supreme. It's great to see this reality being acknowledged in Tamil Nadu Temples. Any qualified person should be eligible for the priesthood. Who cares what house they are born in or what race they are! it matters what kind of person they are; what kind of spiritual qualifications they have: this is what matters.

[Guest guest]

I am the original poster. I can't link this article because the site won't let me but I cut and paste it. This particular one is from BBC News. However, if you do a search there are other sources as well. Enjoy!

 

BBC NEWS- TAMIL NADU BREAKS CASTE BARRIER

 

The new government in India's Tamil Nadu state has decided to end the monopoly of Brahmins and high-caste Hindus in the state's temples.

It has decided that priests in Hindu temples all over the state will be drawn from every caste.

 

Until now, the priesthood in Tamil Nadu had been the exclusive preserve of high-caste Hindus, especially Brahmins.

 

The new government, led by the DMK party, took office in Tamil Nadu after state elections earlier this month.

 

The DMK has a history of fighting against what it calls "the domination of Brahmins and the concept of Brahmanism in the fields of education, employment, religion and social hierarchy".

 

Party president and new Chief Minister M Karunanidhi - despite being a self-declared atheist - tried to appoint temple priests from all castes when he ruled the state in the early 1970s.

 

But his government's order was struck down by the courts.

 

Court judgement

 

Mr Karunanidhi says his latest order is based on a Supreme Court judgment delivered in 2002 which said that non-Brahmins could be appointed as priests as long as they were qualified to carry out the duties.

 

Not all Hindu temples have Brahmins for priests.

 

There are several temples in villages, where local residents belonging to various castes other than Brahmins act as priests.

 

But bigger and more famous temples that attract more devotees and earn more revenue have only Brahmins as priests.

 

Tamil Nadu has a long history of rivalry between Brahmins and non-Brahmins in all walks of life including politics, religion and social spheres.

 

Their differences even once sparked a movement for a separate "Dravidian nation" with Tamil Nadu breaking away from the rest of India - Dravidian being a term used to describe non-Brahmins as one group.

 

Some analysts describe Mr Karunanidhi as the last surviving patriarch of the Dravidian movement. His rival, AIADMK leader J Jayalalitha, who was ousted from power in the recent polls, is a Brahmin by birth.

[Guest guest]

but they should make the way to become a priest much more stringent. Studying vedas does not make one a medium of God, and a priest should be a medium between God and the people.

 

It is difficult to test and prove someone is a true medium of God and the people. That should be the next problem tackled. Take caste out of the equation where priesthood is concerned. However, there needs to be a set of rules to define who will become a priest and who shouldn't. A set of rules that doesn't account for physiology and genetics.

 

The problem here is that unfortunately physiology DOES play a role in spirituality. In fact, they are intertwined, one who sees God is not physiologically the same as one who does not. I think caste arose due to this fact. Bloodlines are meant to be preserved so the people from those bloodlines can see God or experience God more easily. When a family of brahmins has a tradition that is upheld from generation to generation where they become ascetics for a while to realize God, it is only natural their genetic traits will be predisposed to experiencing or realization of God.

 

That doesn't mean that just because one is a Brahmin, he is going to realize God, or that he makes a good medium between God and the people. But it does imply that he is more LIKELY to be such. Of course, if any person from any caste has REALIZED or EXPERIENCED God, they should be allowed to be priests at temples, regardless of caste, as caste is merely lineage, and not the merits of a person. Two very different things.

 

Just because one is a Brahmin, doesn't mean they should be allowed to be priests either. They need spiritual qualifications, such as having meditated and such for some period of time and seen God. This is the requirement that should be made for priesthood. Priests perform ceremonies, adorn Gods and Godesses, recite mantras, they do all this, but if they have no spiritual power, have not experienced or realized God, and do not have TRUE spiritual understanding, all of it is just a sham.

 

Right now, it seems to me that priests are nothing more than figureheads, they strut and act authoritative on spiritual matters, but they don't know much of anything about God. They just perform the rites, read the Vedas, and that's it. Those rites don't do anything as they are mechanically recited by the priests, and it doesn't come from the spirit. This is the state of matters today. Priesthood is essentially irrelevant right now, caste or no caste as far as I can tell.

[Guest guest]

its only prathama paada of kaliyuga and this retrograde step is taken by a government which is naasthika in outlook. A naasthika does not care whether even puja takes place in a temple or not. For the purpose of destroying sanctity of temple this retrograde step is taken by the naasthika govt. But vaidikas need not get shocked. this is what is written in bhavishya puranaas. Vihita karma tyagam and nishiddha karma aacharanam would be the other of the day in kaliyuga. brahmin would perform neecha seva and mlecha would imitate brahmin. Then what about those who are in nishiddha karma aacharana but have so far not indulged in vihita karma tyaga. remorse. do your nithyakarmas. beware that it is on the strength of your nithyakarmas the devathas get the strength and asura pravruthis become weak.

Even if hiranyakashipu ruled for 74 chathuryugas, shri nrusimha came and finished him.

These satans who attempt to destroy temple would go to hell.

Dharmo rakshathi rakshitaha

parithranaaya saadhoonam vinashayacha dushkritham

 

These temple destroying bigots are brashtaas and not dushtaas as powerful like hiranyakashipu.

 

do your nithyakarmas.

 

god will take care of everybody who would do simollangana.

[Guest guest]

 

These satans who attempt to destroy temple would go to hell.

 

you sound like a Christian or Muslim fundamentalist here.

 

 

These temple destroying bigots are brashtaas and not dushtaas as powerful like hiranyakashipu.

 

Do you object to qualified shudras being able to become priests?

 

you do know there are now hindu temples all around the world, that have been built in the past 100 years and the priesthood is not just for indian born brahmins? You should visit the temples in the UK, America and Canada, they are quite lovely.

[Guest guest]

 

you sound like a Christian or Muslim fundamentalist here.

 

 

 

Do you object to qualified shudras being able to become priests?

 

you do know there are now hindu temples all around the world, that have been built in the past 100 years and the priesthood is not just for indian born brahmins? You should visit the temples in the UK, America and Canada, they are quite lovely.

 

Don't worry, he's a Brahmin born idiot. He is squirming right now because he is getting put in his place. So he's just a little upset. These evil Brahmin's are getting their karma. I believe God always serves those with good hearts and souls. All the manifestations Gods and Goddess's have ever taken, these nasty Brahmins have screwed their teachings and now they are getting exactly what they deserved...justice. God is great.

[Guest guest]

who has to get what is already predestined by god. this is kaliyuga. the brahmins who are sadhus are sure to be subject to himsa by brashtaas. brahmins are in their place as predestined by god and nonbrahmins are also in their place as predestined by god. unless this temple desecration by non brahmins becoming priest materialise how kali yuga would become ripe. only when the dharma of brahmins are mimicked by non brahmins will the kali would become ripe. it is said that a non dwija (brahmin, kshathriya, vysya) if plucks the duty of others would become a rakshasa. if they pluck the duty of brahmana , they would loiter as brahma rakshasa giving troubles to brahmanas who do not perform their nithyakarmas. when brahmins dont perform their nitthyakarmas, they deserve to be disturbed by these brahma rakshasas.

rest it is free for all.

no shasthras. only sastra.

coming are the days of brahma rakshasas.

brahmins should do their nithyakarmas properly and should try every bit to handover the vaidika dhana in proper hands to the next generation of brahmins until lord vishnu would born in sambala graama to butcher these brahma rakshasaas and mlechas.

[Guest guest]

 

brahmins should do their nithyakarmas properly and should try every bit to handover the vaidika dhana in proper hands to the next generation of brahmins until lord vishnu would born in sambala graama to butcher these brahma rakshasaas and mlechas.

 

You sound more like a Muslim. I didn't know Brahmins believed in a vengeful angry God who would butcher his own people? If your power is being taken away from you by non-brahmins, it's because you've done nothing to earn it.

[Guest guest]

 

If your power is being taken away from you by non-brahmins, it's because you've done nothing to earn it.

 

This is a reasonable challenge. Brahmins who are aware of the role of their varna and its importance to our society should reflect deeply and figure out how we can earn back the trust of our people. Those who are outside are much more ignorant and can no longer see the essential culture that the Brahmin preserves. Thus the shudra wearing the coat and tie accuses the Brahmin wearing the coat and tie, both equally ignorant of the Vedas and Shastras.

 

Here is what Sri Chandrasekharendra Sarasvati of the Kamakoti peetam said around the 1950's:

 

"... Today the functions of Ksatriyas, Vaisyas and Sudras have changed and become mixed Even so the work of the government goes on somehow. Defence, the manufacture of various articles, trade, labour - all these go on somehow. But, unlike in the past, there is jealousy as well as rivalry in all fields. Even so, the duties of the three castes are carried out despite the fact that varna dharma has broken up. They are a practical necessity for day-to-day life as well as for the functioning of the government. So they are performed, albeit unsatisfactorily.

 

There is, however, a function higher than all these. It is that of taking all of them - all these functions - to their ultimate point. And this function belongs to the Brahminic way of life and it has become almost extinct. To teach dharma by precept and practise, the dharma that is the foundation of all activities, to invoke the divine powers through the vedic chant for the good of all mankind, to create high ideals through their own austere life, to nurture the Atmic strength of the community, to promote the arts, to nourish culture- these embrace the dharma of Brahmins and it is now on the verge of extinction.

 

The need for the Brahminic dharma is not widely recognised because of its subtle and intangible character. There is no realisation of the fact that it is as much essential to life as that of the other three varnas. Indeed, it is this dharma that gives meaning to life and creates a path for the fulfilment of life. We ignore it and devote ourselves solely to the functions of the varnas. If any improvement is made in them we are happy. But what use is material prosperity without Atmic and cultural advancement? Material progress is no progress at all. Americans have realised this truth - we ought also to realise the same. So however confusedly the functions of other castes are carried out, the Brahmin must function in the right manner as a pathfinder for others by living a life of simplicity and sacrifice, performing Vedic rites and creating worldly and Atmic well-being for mankind. In this way the soul of India will be kept alive.

 

If the Brahmin caste is restored to order, it might well be the beginning of the end of confused state of the other castes. In this land alone has there existed - and existed for ages-a jati for the protection of dharma and the Atmic uplift of all. If this jati becomes extinct there will be all-round decay. If I have spoken at length I have this purpose in view, that this jati must be revived in its true form so as to prevent the general decline of the nation. The Brahmin jati must not live a life of self-indulgence. On the contrary it must perform rites all through the day for the welfare of society. Brahmins must live austerely, with love for all in their hearts. If they are restored to their dharma our society in its entirety will be brought to the path of dharma and will be saved. "

[Guest guest]

I don't see why people here are arguing for Brahmins. I don't care how good or bad Brahmins are. There is no caste in reality. Caste was created as an ancient structure to mantain society because there was no rational way of doing things back then. No culture practices caste anymore. There is no need for caste today. ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL, NOT UNEQUAL in the eyes of God. If a person wants to become a priest, NOTHING should stop them from becoming one. It should have nothing to do with how you are born- because whether a person is born in a good home or a bad home what is important is whether they follow a good spiritual path and attain Moskha. So becoming a priest should not be an issue-anyone can become a pundit, swami, guru regardless or caste, class, background, sex or nationality. This is how it truly was in the Golden age until the evil Brahmins messed it all up and thus began the decline of good conduct and righteousness. Brahmins are responsible for the destruction of Hinduism and they are responsible for all the evil that has been caused and all that is going on in India today. Brahmin means knower of God and that has no restrictions, however Brahmins have interpolated Hindu scriptures to teach people one has to be born a Brahmin and the weak and innocent in India were never strong enough to question the stupidity and evil of the so called Brahmin caste.Now they are paying the price.

[Guest guest]

 

 

brahmins should do their nithyakarmas properly and should try every bit to handover the vaidika dhana in proper hands to the next generation of brahmins until lord vishnu would born in sambala graama to butcher these brahma rakshasaas and mlechas.

 

what kind of sick god do you follow? God is love. He does not butcher people because of their race or caste.

 

in other religions anyone who is qualified can become a priest or priestess. Whether they be Wiccan, Druid, or Catholic, there is no caste bigotry, so anyone is welcome to rise up and serve their God or the gods as a priest. Who do you think you are? you are not better than any shudra! They have just as much right to come to God as you. We are all children of God. Buddha rebuked foolish brahmins like you. And that's why so many shudras converted to the Buddha-dharma in his day. They were not going to stick around a group that told them they were less than them, or that they deserved crazy crap to happen to them because of what house they are born into.

[Guest guest]

 

I don't see why people here are arguing for Brahmins. I don't care how good or bad Brahmins are. There is no caste in reality. Caste was created as an ancient structure to mantain society because there was no rational way of doing things back then. No culture practices caste anymore. There is no need for caste today. ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL, NOT UNEQUAL in the eyes of God. If a person wants to become a priest, NOTHING should stop them from becoming one. It should have nothing to do with how you are born- because whether a person is born in a good home or a bad home what is important is whether they follow a good spiritual path and attain Moskha. So becoming a priest should not be an issue-anyone can become a pundit, swami, guru regardless or caste, class, background, sex or nationality. This is how it truly was in the Golden age until the evil Brahmins messed it all up and thus began the decline of good conduct and righteousness. Brahmins are responsible for the destruction of Hinduism and they are responsible for all the evil that has been caused and all that is going on in India today. Brahmin means knower of God and that has no restrictions, however Brahmins have interpolated Hindu scriptures to teach people one has to be born a Brahmin and the weak and innocent in India were never strong enough to question the stupidity and evil of the so called Brahmin caste.Now they are paying the price.

 

Who said anything about equality in the eyes of God? The problem is a reversal of goals. The ancient system was devised to ensure that the central agendas of a man's life are God and God realization. The particular work that a person or family does is to be the means/tool for the higher pursuit. It is childish to put notions of superiority and inferiority into work: taken by itself, it is a corpse; taken with the spiritual ideal, any work is living and equal in the eyes of God.

 

In today's ideology, the purpose of life has become centered around the work one does, hence all happiness and freedom seem to revolve around the work. If by birth a man comes within a certain religion, nobody complains for it is understood that any religion has to potential to lead one to God. People in general are proud of their religion of birth and direct their energies to God through that particular path. The same ideology was with work as well and it worked well when the central goal was spiritual happiness and not material wealth. Today this has failed for the ideal of most is not any different from the Charvaka of old times, though we may fool ourselves talking equality.

[Guest guest]

 

This is a reasonable challenge. Brahmins who are aware of the role of their varna and its importance to our society should reflect deeply and figure out how we can earn back the trust of our people. Those who are outside are much more ignorant and can no longer see the essential culture that the Brahmin preserves. Thus the shudra wearing the coat and tie accuses the Brahmin wearing the coat and tie, both equally ignorant of the Vedas and Shastras.

 

 

How many Brahmins are deeply aware of their role? I don't see many. Most have given up the rule of poverty and are after high-paid jobs. But how can one be a Brahmin and be materialistic as many are. And why should these people even be called Brahmins, when they don't deserve it?

 

There have been some Brahmin scolars who say that groups of Brahmins are wrong by beliving in varna by birth (e.g. Swami Dayananda). Varna by birth cannot be true when you look at the rest of the world where there is NO caste by birth system. So why does India follow this nonsense? The Buddha, Mahavir, The 10 Sikh Gurus - all other Indian religions are against the caste system. If the Vedas are just for Brahmins then it can be argued that Hinduism is just for Brahmins. All the other castes are supposed to be less religious, even if they want to be religious?

 

 

Here is what Sri Chandrasekharendra Sarasvati of the Kamakoti peetam said around the 1950's

 

 

I've read his articles on the kamakoti website. Many of his articles are very good but when it comes to varna he misses the point. His arguments for varna by birth are weak to say the least. Though the kanchi sankaracharyas believe only Brahmins can study the Vedas, do they object to other castes studying the Prasthana-treya or other Hindu scriptures?

 

 

There is, however, a function higher than all these. It is that of taking all of them - all these functions - to their ultimate point. And this function belongs to the Brahminic way of life and it has become almost extinct. To teach dharma by precept and practise, the dharma that is the foundation of all activities, to invoke the divine powers through the vedic chant for the good of all mankind, to create high ideals through their own austere life, to nurture the Atmic strength of the community, to promote the arts, to nourish culture-these embrace the dharma of Brahmins and it is now on the verge of extinction.

 

 

You're right. I think it's almost extinct and it's going to be very difficult to bring it back. I've never come acroos a brahmin who follows that dharma. The youths in the Brahmin community don't seem to care any more, except they still want other castes to look up to them as 'higher'. And when you have Brahmin daughters like Asha Sharma who recently tried to run across the L.O.C to meet her Pakistani Muslim internet-boyfriend, you realise that Brahmins have a serious problem in their community.

 

 

Material progress is no progress at all. Americans have realised this truth - we ought also to realise the same. So however confusedly the functions of other castes are carried out, the Brahmin must function in the right manner as a pathfinder for others by living a life of simplicity and sacrifice, performing Vedic rites and creating worldly and Atmic well-being for mankind. In this way the soul of India will be kept alive.

 

 

Material progress is no progress? Tell that to the millions of Brahmins in the cities of India and all over the developed world who are strongly pursuing the mighty R/$/£. As Brahmins they are not supposed to accululate wealth. Ask them to choose between a life of wealth and luxury against rituals and poverty and see what they say? They are willingly letting go of their Brahmin dharma. If you force them to live like a true Brahmin, they will leave Hinduism altogether. So why not accept those of other castes who have the quality and characteristics of a true Brahmin.

 

You say Americans have realised this truth about material progress is no progress. Some have. Some have even adopted Hinduism as their chosen spiritual path. Do YOU accept them as Hindus? If so what varna/caste are they? Do they have to come from a family of christian priests to even be considered Brahmin converts?

 

 

If the Brahmin caste is restored to order, it might well be the beginning of the end of confused state of the other castes. In this land alone has there existed - and existed for ages-a jati for the protection of dharma and the Atmic uplift of all. If this jati becomes extinct there will be all-round decay.

 

Honestly speaking, this is likely to never happen. The quality of born-Brahmins is long gone. Hinduism will only be revived by westerners as they seem to take it more seriously than those born into it. Many Hindus don't care, but use the label 'Hindu' as an identity to distinguish them from those of other religions.

[Guest guest]

 

How many Brahmins are deeply aware of their role? I don't see many. Most have given up the rule of poverty and are after high-paid jobs. But how can one be a Brahmin and be materialistic as many are. And why should these people even be called Brahmins, when they don't deserve it?

 

There have been some Brahmin scolars who say that groups of Brahmins are wrong by beliving in varna by birth (e.g. Swami Dayananda). Varna by birth cannot be true when you look at the rest of the world where there is NO caste by birth system. So why does India follow this nonsense? The Buddha, Mahavir, The 10 Sikh Gurus - all other Indian religions are against the caste system. If the Vedas are just for Brahmins then it can be argued that Hinduism is just for Brahmins. All the other castes are supposed to be less religious, even if they want to be religious?

 

 

 

I've read his articles on the kamakoti website. Many of his articles are very good but when it comes to varna he misses the point. His arguments for varna by birth are weak to say the least. Though the kanchi sankaracharyas believe only Brahmins can study the Vedas, do they object to other castes studying the Prasthana-treya or other Hindu scriptures?

 

 

 

You're right. I think it's almost extinct and it's going to be very difficult to bring it back. I've never come acroos a brahmin who follows that dharma. The youths in the Brahmin community don't seem to care any more, except they still want other castes to look up to them as 'higher'. And when you have Brahmin daughters like Asha Sharma who recently tried to run across the L.O.C to meet her Pakistani Muslim internet-boyfriend, you realise that Brahmins have a serious problem in their community.

 

 

 

Material progress is no progress? Tell that to the millions of Brahmins in the cities of India and all over the developed world who are strongly pursuing the mighty R/$/£. As Brahmins they are not supposed to accululate wealth. Ask them to choose between a life of wealth and luxury against rituals and poverty and see what they say? They are willingly letting go of their Brahmin dharma. If you force them to live like a true Brahmin, they will leave Hinduism altogether. So why not accept those of other castes who have the quality and characteristics of a true Brahmin.

 

You say Americans have realised this truth about material progress is no progress. Some have. Some have even adopted Hinduism as their chosen spiritual path. Do YOU accept them as Hindus? If so what varna/caste are they? Do they have to come from a family of christian priests to even be considered Brahmin converts?

 

 

 

Honestly speaking, this is likely to never happen. The quality of born-Brahmins is long gone. Hinduism will only be revived by westerners as they seem to take it more seriously than those born into it. Many Hindus don't care, but use the label 'Hindu' as an identity to distinguish them from those of other religions.

 

Just to be precise: I quoted most from the Shankaracharya literally, so things like Americans ... were said by him and not me; I could not fudge the details as I thought fit now.

 

As for the other points, well I agree that it appears an unworkable option but the Brahmins of today are separated from their past by less than 2-3 generations. Brahmins ignorant of Sanskrit had grandparents fluent in it; Brahmins unable to follow the scriptural routine even a bit have parents who do. Thus it is foolish to be overwhelmed by the society of today and say everything is long gone. At least it is not so in the time context. The necessities are such today that even to live with basic needs fulfilled requires the destruction of the traditional systems.

 

Here are a few things I do practice (not perhaps perfectly), as I am a born Brahmin who also aspires to become a true Brahmin as per the requirement of the Sages. I wake up around 5 AM, take my bath in cold water independent of weather, I follow the ideal of Brahmacharya, I keep primarily to religious or academic studies, do not go to movies or watch TV, do about 2 1/4 to 2.5 hours of prayer/meditation routines daily of which about 50-60 minutes are required prayers of Brahmins. I have a bad habit of getting caught in internet forums but am good at renouncing them as needed atleast on a temporary basis (!). I plan to become proficient in Sanskrit in future and learn the Vedas as well.

 

Of course, none of these things requires a title of being a Brahmin. By all means, take them up as they please. BUT for the Brahmin, it is not a choice but requirement. This is (small part of) his job which he must do on behalf of society. It is not a question of who is given more right to religion. The context is lost today: you must have read the Shankaracharya mentions how the Brahmin boy is supposed to learn basic Sanskrit by 8 years, then go to Gurukula for the next ten for his studies. Such a study system following strict Brahmacharya, begging for one's food, etc. is required to master the Vedas. Everyone cannot follow such a routine and if left to people's choice, then NO ONE will follow all this. The only thing that sustains any of these traditional ways today (and did so for centuries) at least in remote villages is the BIRTH BASED system.

 

In the West, the governments recognize important works that may not give immediate economic benefits but are of intrinsic worth and do good in long term. Hence they fund such projects by the millions of dollars. In the East, our kings did the same for the Brahmins who had little income on their own but the life they lived benefited all. But today that common sense found in the West is altogether lacking in our country, and the Brahmins are being hacked out of existence by every fellow in power and out of power.

 

The real reason for the collapse is economic necessity. In that case, let me at least put forth the challenge and suggest that others also do this. Let those Brahmins who talk of being Brahmins and have become filthy rich before they are too old to do anything give up the money making grind and return to the ways of their ancestors. Economic necessity is not their excuse. There must be sacrifice if anything good can come about.

[Guest guest]

 

If by birth a man comes within a certain religion, nobody complains for it is understood that any religion has to potential to lead one to God. People in general are proud of their religion of birth and direct their energies to God through that particular path. The same ideology was with work as well and it worked well when the central goal was spiritual happiness and not material wealth. Today this has failed for the ideal of most is not any different from the Charvaka of old times, though we may fool ourselves talking equality.

 

Some people are born into homes that practice dark witchcraft religions; others are born into religions that teach there is no God (buddhism). Others are born into religions that they are not suited for. That's why people either leave their religion and become agnostics (believing in nothing) or convert to a religion that they have come to see as the Truth.

 

Since the Christian and Muslim religion teach that reincarnation is a satanic lie, and meditation is an evil practice, and that all followers of other religions are damned, those who DO BELIEVE in reincarnation and practice meditation will not stay Christians or Muslims. Many will be attracted to Sanatana Dharma, because it is a religion that speaks about reincarnation and meditation practices, and talks about how to cross the ocean of Samsara.

 

A great American born Saivite Swami has said, that Hindus must not naively state that all religions are the same. Anyone can clearly see the different religions teach differently. That's why people convert to other religions, because the religion they are born into does not hold their beliefs, whereas another does.

 

Spirituality is personal, it is not just about where you are born. A person could be born into a family who practices black magic, for crying out loud. Should they remain as dark sorcerers, because that's the spiritual tradition they were born into?

 

Religion is a matter of the heart, not a matter of race, or birth. There are indian Christians, and Caucasian Hindus. There are africans who worship Jesus Christ (a Jewish man), while there are Jews who reject Jesus Christ, and worship Shiva as the Supreme Lord. Everyone is drawn to what they are drawn toward, no matter what race, country or household they are born into.

 

In America we have freedom of religion, so people are free to practice whatever faith they want to. Many people in America leave the Christian faith, and then go out searching for spiritual answers in eastern religions. And great Swamis and Gurus are their to meet these seekers when they are ready. Many great souls come to the Sanatana Dharma not by birth, but later in life as they become seekers of the deeper spiritual truths.

[Guest guest]

 

If so what varna/caste are they? Do they have to come from a family of christian priests to even be considered Brahmin converts?

 

This could be a problem because Catholic priests are not allowed to be married, and thus have no children.

 

In the Catholic religion there is no caste by birth system. This system would be completely foreign to a religion that has no belief in past lives, or that where one is born is determined by karma. Everyone is thought to be born on equal ground within the Christian religion. Since each soul comes into existence for the first time in their mother's womb, according to their beliefs.

 

The Catholic religion is pretty ignorant about karma and the like, but in their ignorance, they do not hold discrimination against people. Perhaps the understanding of past lives and the great knowledges of karma and reincarnation, is abused by those who have over-analyzed it. Some tend to lean toward fatalism, thinking when others suffer we should not be compassionate because "it's their karma". This is a misuse of this knowledge of karma.

 

Karma can be erased (through spiritual practices) and people can rise above their past-life mistakes. Therefore, with our knowledge of past lives we should never go toward discrimination. We should never look down on people because of where they are born, thinking they are just getting what they deserve, so why should I care about them. To those who think this way, it would be better if they had no knowledge of reincarnation, and were forced to look at people compassionately like the rest of the world's population, who have no knowledge of reincarnation.

 

Jesus, like Buddha, did not discriminate against anyone based on their socio-economic background or their place of birth. If he was a great sage, he no doubt knew about karma and past lives, but he did not come to keep people in the karmic rut, but to help them rise out of it! He said he came to help return each Prodigal to the Father's house. This is what the great sages in our religion have tried to do as well.. Yet so often their universal teachings on compassion and non-discrimination, fall on deaf ears. And we still see so-called religious leaders (brahmins), preaching fatalism and not trying to help ALL rise to the same level.

[Guest guest]

 

Some people are born into homes that practice dark witchcraft religions; others are born into religions that teach there is no God (buddhism). Others are born into religions that they are not suited for. That's why people either leave their religion and become agnostics (believing in nothing) or convert to a religion that they have come to see as the Truth.

 

Since the Christian and Muslim religion teach that reincarnation is a satanic lie, and meditation is an evil practice, and that all followers of other religions are damned, those who DO BELIEVE in reincarnation and practice meditation will not stay Christians or Muslims. Many will be attracted to Sanatana Dharma, because it is a religion that speaks about reincarnation and meditation practices, and talks about how to cross the ocean of Samsara.

 

A great American born Saivite Swami has said, that Hindus must not naively state that all religions are the same. Anyone can clearly see the different religions teach differently. That's why people convert to other religions, because the religion they are born into does not hold their beliefs, whereas another does.

 

Spirituality is personal, it is not just about where you are born. A person could be born into a family who practices black magic, for crying out loud. Should they remain as dark sorcerers, because that's the spiritual tradition they were born into?

 

 

 

The one before yours is also mine although it was left as Guest. I try to mention in it that the system was devised to preserve a crucial type of work and is not meant to restrict in terms of spirituality.

 

As I said, let those who want to follow the Brahminic way of life follow it but the birth-based Brahmin must struggle to uphold that Dharma in its full rigour as said in the Shastras. For others it is spirituality; for him it is his very life/Job. Others will be applauded for waking up at 4AM and praying 2 hours; the Brahmin will and must be denounced for not doing so. It is not personal for him: it is his social duty.

 

This is the standard demanded by the sages for the Hindu society, and every Hindu must understand that this standard must be maintained in a military manner by a certain common people. Hindus are expecting this standard today from Sannyasins in monasteries, and they are also coming forth and doing the Brahmin's work in order that the traditions keep shining in their original light. This is a desperate measure but good for what it is. However the banner must be taken up by the common people, starting with those who till a few generations back held that banner aloft. They are not so dead now but are totally lost in the flow of modern society (as everyone else). But quite a few are well aware of their roots and with some right thinking and promise of basic aid are capable of returning to the life of the sages.

 

[The point about people born into religion is a general one: in general, most people born into a religion are able to understand the better points of that religion and abide by it. The fundamental basis of any religion is the understanding of the ephemeral nature of phenomenal existence. The remaining structures of God, reincarnation, soul, etc. are beyond common knowledge. These are not the necessary factors that validate the religious pursuit. While some religions insist on them, the true seeker would learn to separate the sugar from the sand without throwing the whole thing overboard. (An atheist friend was arguing with me last week that because religions "cause" war, we must throw out all religion and start over.) However I understand your point.]

[Guest guest]

in general, most people born into a religion are able to understand the better points of that religion and abide by it.

[Guest guest]

 

you sound like a Christian or Muslim fundamentalist here.

 

 

 

Do you object to qualified shudras being able to become priests?

 

you do know there are now hindu temples all around the world, that have been built in the past 100 years and the priesthood is not just for indian born brahmins? You should visit the temples in the UK, America and Canada, they are quite lovely.

 

 

I'm the Guest who wrote about how the government SHOULD abolish the caste system, but place different regulations on who becomes a priest. That it should not be simply about who knows Vedas, it should be about who has seen/experienced God.

 

I would never object to qualified shudras becoming priests. To me, if they are truly qualified, they are not shudras, they are brahmins, because they know/experience God, and thus are able mediums between God and the people.

 

However, I do believe caste also serves a purpose, however abhorrent the idea may appear in this day and age. And that is the purpose of genetic engineering for the purpose of connecting to God. It's odd really, as we now have the technology to select which genes a baby will express, and what sex the baby is, and many people want to do exactly this, yet they find the idea of the caste system apalling. The caste system is a result of the very same desire, in my opinion, and is meant to maintain the purity of brahmin lineage. It's the LINEAGE that's important as far as caste system is concerned. It doesn't measure a person's worth, but his pedigree, from which there is a probability associated with how likely the person is to experience God.

 

The genetics is directly connected with a person's physiology which I do believe is connected as well to spirituality.

 

There are lots of brahmins performing ceremonies at temples, but those brahmins aren't REAL brahmins simply from learning Vedas, they have to experience God to be real Brahmins. They simply have the POTENTIAL to be real Brahmins, and that is the distinction I wanted to make. Truly, everyone has the potential to become a brahmin, but some ae much more likely to become a real brahmin than others. I'm using the brahmin term as for one who knows God, and is not truly attatched to birth, though its likelihood or potential is attached to birth.

[Guest guest]

 

However, I do believe caste also serves a purpose, however abhorrent the idea may appear in this day and age. And that is the purpose of genetic engineering for the purpose of connecting to God. It's odd really, as we now have the technology to select which genes a baby will express, and what sex the baby is, and many people want to do exactly this, yet they find the idea of the caste system apalling. The caste system is a result of the very same desire, in my opinion, and is meant to maintain the purity of brahmin lineage. It's the LINEAGE that's important as far as caste system is concerned. It doesn't measure a person's worth, but his pedigree, from which there is a probability associated with how likely the person is to experience God.

 

The problem is caste is not a universally recognized institution, and it comes off as more of a cultural practice than a universal spiritual application. Since the whole world does not recognize caste, those who are converts to the great Hindu religion from non-caste cultures, do not know their place within this caste system.

 

When a Malayasian, or an African, or an Italian, or an Mexican, converts to Sanatana Dharma, what caste are they? For example, what caste are Dr. David Frawley and Dr. Frank Gaetano Morales? They are 2 American born converts to Hinduism (one Caucasian, one Hispanic), who are now very respected leaders and teachers within the Hindu community? If you do not know who Dr. Frawley and Dr. Morales are, here are their sites:

 

vedanet.com

dharmacentral.com

[Guest guest]

 

Thus it is foolish to be overwhelmed by the society of today and say everything is long gone. At least it is not so in the time context.

 

 

What I meant is that alot of the youngsters do not want to follow that discipline of the Brahmin. Some willingly don't want to study Sanskrit and the Vedas and concentrate entirely on academic education and seek high-paid careers. As you know true Brahmins shouldn't be doing this. A Brahmin is to live a simple life.

 

 

Here are a few things I do practice (not perhaps perfectly), as I am a born Brahmin who also aspires to become a true Brahmin as per the requirement of the Sages. I wake up around 5 AM, take my bath in cold water independent of weather, I follow the ideal of Brahmacharya, I keep primarily to religious or academic studies, do not go to movies or watch TV, do about 2 1/4 to 2.5 hours of prayer/meditation routines daily of which about 50-60 minutes are required prayers of Brahmins. I have a bad habit of getting caught in internet forums but am good at renouncing them as needed atleast on a temporary basis (!). I plan to become proficient in Sanskrit in future and learn the Vedas as well.

 

 

It is very good that there are still people like you who try to follow the Brahmin way of life. I am aware of the strict discipline, but just the fact that you are trying to follow it is a great thing. No TV or movies? That must be hard, unless you live in rural areas. We need you on internet forums so you can voice your opinions.

 

 

Of course, none of these things requires a title of being a Brahmin. By all means, take them up as they please. BUT for the Brahmin, it is not a choice but requirement. This is (small part of) his job which he must do on behalf of society. It is not a question of who is given more right to religion. The context is lost today: you must have read the Shankaracharya mentions how the Brahmin boy is supposed to learn basic Sanskrit by 8 years, then go to Gurukula for the next ten for his studies. Such a study system following strict Brahmacharya, begging for one's food, etc. is required to master the Vedas. Everyone cannot follow such a routine and if left to people's choice, then NO ONE will follow all this. The only thing that sustains any of these traditional ways today (and did so for centuries) at least in remote villages is the BIRTH BASED system.

 

 

That is correct. That's why the developing India will be a tremendous challenge to born Brahmins in the years to come. If many born brahmins leave their duties, there will be so few practicing Brahmins left. But then again society in the developed world becoming less religious, this is true of India too, so maybe there will be less demand for Brahmins as there will be less practicing Hindus. Some Hindus follow this 'modern' version of Hinduism where you don't need Brahmins much and everything is determined by your actions in this life.

 

 

In the East, our kings did the same for the Brahmins who had little income on their own but the life they lived benefited all. But today that common sense found in the West is altogether lacking in our country, and the Brahmins are being hacked out of existence by every fellow in power and out of power.

 

 

I think they need to learn how to adapt to changing circumstances. It will be very hard.

 

 

Let those Brahmins who talk of being Brahmins and have become filthy rich before they are too old to do anything give up the money making grind and return to the ways of their ancestors. Economic necessity is not their excuse. There must be sacrifice if anything good can come about.

 

 

That's an Idea, but I find many become more materialistic as they get older. Maybe when young they didn't have money, but when older have the money and want to spend it on an expensive lifestyle. When they get old they want to die in luxury, live in a big house, etc.

 

 

 

Since the whole world does not recognize caste, those who are converts to the great Hindu religion from non-caste cultures, do not know their place within this caste system.

 

 

In Ancient times this wasn't a problem. When the Greeks were in India around the time of Chandragupta Maurya, some of these Greeks who settled in India converted to Hinduism through the shruddi ceremony and were accepted as Kshatriyas. Many other groups such as the Sakas were also assimilated.

 

 

When a Malayasian, or an African, or an Italian, or an Mexican, converts to Sanatana Dharma, what caste are they? For example, what caste are Dr. David Frawley and Dr. Frank Gaetano Morales? They are 2 American born converts to Hinduism (one Caucasian, one Hispanic), who are now very respected leaders and teachers within the Hindu community?

 

 

A very good question, that I think casteists will be stumped to answer. The only solution would be they follow varna like the early Vedic society, varna is determined by their gunas, actions, qualities as in the west and the rest of the developed world people don't follow the occupation of their fathers. They try for the best jobs they can get according to their ability.

 

The problem of those who support the hereditary caste system is that they fail to notice that the world outside India doesn't follow their caste system and have been successful in life. And after a Hindu dies and is to be reincarnated, they are far more likely to be reincarnated as a non-indian and a non-hindu since that is what the majority in this world consists of. To be born as a Hindu in ANY caste should be a privilage as it would only occur on rare occassions. The hereditary caste system can't stand up because we have found those born of shudras may not have a low character, may not indulge in low action and may be a decent and intelligent human being. So why should they be condemned and not allowed to shine in other professions?

[Guest guest]

 

The problem of those who support the hereditary caste system is that they fail to notice that the world outside India doesn't follow their caste system and have been successful in life. And after a Hindu dies and is to be reincarnated, they are far more likely to be reincarnated as a non-indian and a non-hindu since that is what the majority in this world consists of. To be born as a Hindu in ANY caste should be a privilage as it would only occur on rare occassions. The hereditary caste system can't stand up because we have found those born of shudras may not have a low character, may not indulge in low action and may be a decent and intelligent human being. So why should they be condemned and not allowed to shine in other professions?

 

Exactly. They fail to have a universal outlook. And those of with the knowledge of reincarnation, must have a universal outlook.

 

During our incarnations, we are every race under the sun. In some lives those who are now white, black, mexican, were Indian Hindus. And in future lives those who are now India Hindus, will be reincarnated as white, black and mexicans. So it's for the benefit of all souls that the Dharma spreads around the world.

 

I have met white and hispanic people who have vivid past life memories of living in India. With this understanding, we can same say these same whites and hispanics are just as much a part of indian history as any indian today. In their past lives they walked on the same soil, prayed in the same temples, and performed the same pujas, as those who were born in India in this lifetime. Some may have even helped build those temples in their past lives.

 

Sanatana Dharma's vision and principles apply to all mankind. All mankind fall under the vision of the ancient Rishis.

 

I remember a south american shaman being asked if "native americans had chakras." The person asking said: "I thought chakras were Hindu". The wise shaman responded: "do africans have kidneys? or are kidneys just for Europeans?" Of course, his point was that chakras are universal. To think only Hindus have them is total foolishness. It's absurd to think the metaphysical ponderings that Hindus speak of are only of interest to Indians. haha, how can people be so foolish?

 

The white, black and mexican Atman is no different than an Indian Atman. We ecah have the same eternal souls; the same issues; the same karma and reincarnation cycle to deal with. Therefore the principles of Sanatana Dharma are just as important to those incarnated in non-indian bodies. And that's why so many westerners who are deep spiritual seekers have converted to Hinduism in the past 100 yrs. The spiritually intuitive of any race will come to understand the reincarnation cycle and therefore it is certainly not surprising that they are attracted to vedic traditions, which speak on how to obtain moksha. There is no greater religion than Sanatana Dharma. It shines its light for all mankind.