Fall of the Jiva & OOP

[Guest guest]

> I am just worried about the concept of time as relative as an excuse for

> our falldown.In other words "I never really fell in the material world"

> in the face of eteranal time,I understand what you are saying but we have

> to be carefull to not think the soul is not really fallen.Yes we are

> fallen from the spiritual world,now lets get back there,and rectifie

> ourselves. YS

> Payonidhi das

 

Yes, this is a good point. We should never forget that 'I am rascal.'

 

ahankara vimudatma karta 'ham iti manyate

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 99-02-24 07:44:24 EST, Vraja.Kumara.SRS (AT) com (DOT) bbt.se writes:

 

<<

But I would argue that 'the jiva' spoken of here is an all-emcompassing term

for jivas in general. Not that it applies to ALL jivas ie. that you and I

have necessarily been here since then.

>>

Haribol

This approach of taking a reference to an object as a collective group rather

than an individual entity is also used by OOP in their explanation of Mundaka

Upanisad where it refers to beginningless ignorance.

 

But see what is done at the discussion of Vedanta 2.1.35 which centers around

God's being fair at all times to all souls. Here, at least, the sutra must be

referring to jivas on an individual, case by case basis (the topic of being

equally fair to all requires . OOP realizes this, and therefore, can't

consistently use the same above-mentioned "collectivity" approach (the

approach of referring to a collective group of jivas and their collective

eternal karma born of collective eternal ignorance=Mayadevi). Instead, the

OOP chooses to interpret "karma" as referring not only to material activity

but to the jiva's spiritual activity as well (before he fell). OOP places

spiritual activity on a linear timescale just prior to the "fall" which in

turn occurred prior to our current ongoing but finite cycle of karma.

 

Ravindra-svarupa (rsdtm.com), who I feel has a better grasp of the issue,

acknowledges at least two time frames and says that the fall is not a dateable

event in material time (practically or theoretically) and that the fall

occured, occurs, and will keep occurring continuously until we get liberated.

"We need only look into our hearts to confirm it." I feel this is better

because it is more consistent with the Pancaratra summary of multi-dimensional

time. Also why would Bhaktivinode bring up "cit" and "acit" time as a

complicating issue in the jiva fall issue if time was linear in the way

presented by OOP?

 

ys

gerald s

[Guest guest]

I was missing a few words in the last post.

GS

In a message dated 99-02-24 18:36:49 EST, Mrgerald writes:

 

<<

But see what is done at the discussion of Vedanta 2.1.35 which centers around

God's being fair at all times to all souls. Here, at least, the sutra must be

referring to jivas on an individual, case by case basis (the topic of being

equally fair to all requires >> giving due regard to the fact that each

person's karma is different)

OOP realizes this, and therefore, can't consistently use the same above-....

[Guest guest]

On 24 Feb 1999, Mrgerald (AT) aol (DOT) com wrote:

 

> In a message dated 99-02-24 07:44:24 EST, Vraja.Kumara.SRS (AT) com (DOT) bbt.se

writes:

>

> <<

> But I would argue that 'the jiva' spoken of here is an all-emcompassing

term

> for jivas in general. Not that it applies to ALL jivas ie. that you and I

> have necessarily been here since then.

> >>

> Haribol

> This approach of taking a reference to an object as a collective group

rather

> than an individual entity is also used by OOP in their explanation of

Mundaka

> Upanisad where it refers to beginningless ignorance.

>

> But see what is done at the discussion of Vedanta 2.1.35 which centers

around

> God's being fair at all times to all souls. Here, at least, the sutra must

be

> referring to jivas on an individual, case by case basis (the topic of being

> equally fair to all requires . OOP realizes this, and therefore, can't

> consistently use the same above-mentioned "collectivity" approach (the

> approach of referring to a collective group of jivas and their collective

> eternal karma born of collective eternal ignorance=Mayadevi). Instead, the

> OOP chooses to interpret "karma" as referring not only to material activity

> but to the jiva's spiritual activity as well (before he fell). OOP places

> spiritual activity on a linear timescale just prior to the "fall" which in

> turn occurred prior to our current ongoing but finite cycle of karma.

>

> Ravindra-svarupa (rsdtm.com), who I feel has a better grasp of the issue,

> acknowledges at least two time frames and says that the fall is not a

dateable

> event in material time (practically or theoretically) and that the fall

> occured, occurs, and will keep occurring continuously until we get

liberated.

> "We need only look into our hearts to confirm it." I feel this is better

> because it is more consistent with the Pancaratra summary of

multi-dimensional

> time. Also why would Bhaktivinode bring up "cit" and "acit" time as a

> complicating issue in the jiva fall issue if time was linear in the way

> presented by OOP?

>

> ys

> gerald s

 

Dear Prabhu

PAMHO

AGTSP

Why should I believe that I came to the material world later than everyone

else??I am mostly likely the greatest rascal and one of the most

fallen souls that has been around the longest?I am just kidding.But why does

it matter when the soul fell in time,we are still nitya badhas that mean we

have been in this material prison as long as can not even be remembered,and

the key to our delivery has been thrown away,since we where such rascals,and

confirmed in the Gita vers Mudha janmani janmani

(16.20 asurim yonim apanna,mudha janmani janmani).This concept of a later fall

is not something I have read anywhere to my knowledge,I just

remember the concept of Nitya baddha.I have read the Vedantra suta and

Mundaka upanisad,but don't have any copy at present,so I would appriciate the

full verses you are refering to,sanskrit and translation.

where did Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu get the concept of a continious fall??Once

you fall you are fallen,and all the activities then are the

activities performed under the influence of maha maya,till one starts acting

in KC which is then a war against the illusory energy,till one

becomes a pure devotee where maya is not testing the jiva due to his full

surrender.Daivi hy esa gunamayi ,Gita 7.14.

Your servant

Payonidhi das

 

 

 

 

 

 

>

[Guest guest]

> Ravindra-svarupa (rsdtm.com), who I feel has a better grasp of the issue,

> acknowledges at least two time frames and says that the fall is not a

> dateable event in material time (practically or theoretically) and that

> the fall occured, occurs, and will keep occurring continuously until we

> get liberated. "We need only look into our hearts to confirm it." I feel

> this is better because it is more consistent with the Pancaratra summary

> of multi-dimensional time. Also why would Bhaktivinode bring up "cit" and

> "acit" time as a complicating issue in the jiva fall issue if time was

> linear in the way presented by OOP?

 

Is this analogous to the bhakti-lata or devotional creeper ie. we need to

tend it and nurture it until it reaches Vaikuntha. Any anarthas or

aparadhas along the way cause stunting of bhakti-lata growth or maybe even

shrinking ('continuously occurring falls' in your above text)?

[Guest guest]

>Is this analogous to the bhakti-lata or devotional creeper ie. we need to

>tend it and nurture it until it reaches Vaikuntha. Any anarthas or

>aparadhas along the way cause stunting of bhakti-lata growth or maybe even

>shrinking ('continuously occurring falls' in your above text)?

 

This makes sense.

 

>where did Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu get the concept of a continious fall??

 

The conversion of the term "we fell" to "we are continuously falling" is an

attempt by Ravindra-svarupa to remove the dirt of material time on the word

"fell." I think this can be naturally understood from the discussions of time

in Jaiva Dharma.

 

Chapter fifteen deals specifically with the origin of the jiva with

special reference to the concept of spiritual time--thus demonstrating that

the

resolution of the jiva issue rests almost exclusively on the proper

understanding of spiritual time as elucidated by Srila Bhaktivinoda

Thakura--who warns against "the influence of material time over our

statements."

 

But first: the full context of Ravindrasvarupa's statement is this:

"Now let us go to a matter equally inconceivable. Let us say, for the purposes

of discussion, that a soul "falls" from eternity and sojourns in the material

world. When did he enter the material world? We can only say that the fall is

a non-temporal act that renders the conditioned soul bound from all time. The

history of his incarceration in time has no beginning. The conditioned soul

has always been conditioned. Strictly speaking, the question of "when" does

not apply. Although bondage is not the soul's original condition, the state of

bondage is necessarily described as anadi, or beginningless, and the

conditioned soul himself is characterized as "nitya-baddha," eternally bound

or conditioned. There was no time when he was not bound."

 

"For our better understanding, however, we need to be aware of one

simplification that takes place—quite naturally—in the telling of the

narrative of fall and redemption. This is the representation of all the events

in the story as though they take place on a single temporal continuum. For

example, we habitually characterize our entry into time as though it were

itself a temporal occasion, a dateable event. However, as we have seen, "once"

we become conditioned, we have always been conditioned.

 

"Similarly, we think of our rebellion against God as a distant, aboriginal

event, one that took place long ago and far away, in that world. In truth,

that single act of rebellion is perpetual; that very same aboriginal event is

taking place right now. We have only to look into our hearts to confirm this."

 

Now, unless it is possible to entirely dissect out the influence of material

time from one's statements, one is sure to become embroiled in controversy.

Material verbs (English and Sanskrit) such as "fell", "boundcreated",

"emanatedeternal" when used by a conditioned soul are all inevitably dirty

material words-- contaminated by material time. Only a person in pure

spiritual consciousness (chit samadhi) can

properly perceive the actual truth of the origin of the jiva. When, however,

the sadhu and shastra uses words which connote material time in the

conditioned mind, controversy and contradiction naturally arise. Therefore,

Srila Bhaktivinoda strongly condemns the influence of material time in these

statements:

 

Babaji: "The time and space as you feel in the material world are different

from the time and space of the chit world. The time of the mundane world is

divided into three periods, past, present and future; whereas the time in the

chit- world is ever present as undivided. All the events relating to chit are

conceived of as present."

 

"My darling, you should be very cautious while deliberating over these things

and feel the presence of chit, having thrown off the unavoidable

detestableness of words. All the Vaishnavas say that the jiva souls have been

fastened by maya for the forgetfulness of their own nature, but they all know

that though the jivas are eternal entities, they are of two kinds, viz.

eternally fastened and eternally free.

 

"Such statements are due to the human intelligence being subject to errors and

omissions. But a sedate person forms a conception of the transcendental truth

by means of chit-samadhi. Our statements are material, whatever we speak about

is interspersed with the dirt of words, but you will feel what the truth is.

Argumentations have no footing here, for it is vain to apply them to

inscrutable truths. I know that you will not be able to realize this truth in

a moment. The more you culture about chit affairs the more will be evident the

difference of chit from matter."

 

In short Ravindra-svarupa Prabhu, like this Rangachar I quoted, is saying that

the fall did not occur only at a certain point cosmic material linear time,

despite the usage of the simplified phrase "the jiva fell." Any comments?

 

Gerald S

[Guest guest]

I believe it is important to differentiate between the origenal falldown

from the spiritual world,and the conditioned nature that causes the jiva to

float on the modes of nature.

YS

Payonidhi das