Guru & Disciple

[Guest guest]

[Text 77779 from SOCHI]

 

> There was a question:

> Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada says the guru takes the disciple+s

> sins, papa.

>

> The answer given was:

> Never. The bona fide guru is qualified. He is like fire. He will burn

> everything away. Why will he take it himself? He will not take the fruits

> from the disciple+s karma. Never will he take them. He will at once, by his

> mercy, quickly burn all. Not, there is nothing to be confused about. But, if

> the guru is not qualified, if he is not tattva-jnani, or if he is a

> kanistha-adhikari, then he will take all the sins. A madhyama-adhikari who

> is at the level of madhyama-uttama, oh, he will burn everything.

>

> This answer is trying to prove Prabhupada wrong or kanishtha. Anybody can

> give the proper answer or explanation on this?

 

I would rather say this answer is explaining how to understand properly the

statement of Srila Prabhupada. Otherwise, if the guru had to suffer all his

disciples' karma for many lifetimes himself and not burn it with Krishna's help

how can he possibly survive and return back to Godhead? If a disciple's karma

is to be born as a pig does it mean the guru has to do it for him? No. Guru

takes the karma but it is immediately destroyed by Krsna's grace (karmani

nirdahati kintu ca bhakti bhajam). One may say Srila Prabhupada has also said

that he was sick once because his disciples would break the regs, but I see it

as a lila of a pure devotee which was meant to instruct his followers not to

commit sins and not to take too many sinful disciples. However, if a

kanista-adhikari becomes a guru he is not bhakti-bhajam yet and may really

suffer some heavy reactions.

 

ys MM das

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

I saw the post you mentioned in a VNN forum. I wanted to respond but couldn't

find it again. Could you tell me where it is.

 

Here is the text I would like to send to help clarify things. It is an

excerpt from a room conversation.

 

 

Bob: I’d like to ask you just something I talked with devotees about, just

medicine. I went to go, I walked to the river with some devotees today. I

have a cold, so I said I shouldn’t go in the water. Some felt I should

because it is the Ganges, and some said I shouldn’t because I have a cold.

And we were talking, and I don’t understand. Some... Devotees, do we get sick

because of our bad actions in the past?

Prabhupada: That’s a fact.

Bob: But when one is...

Prabhupada: Any kind of distress we suffer, it is due to our impious

activities in the past.

Bob: But when one is removed from karmic influence...

Prabhupada: Yes?

Bob: ...does he still get sick?

Prabhupada: No. Even if he gets sick, that is very temporary. Just like this

fan is moving. If you disconnect with the electric power, then the fan will

move for a moment. That movement is not due to the electric current. That is

force. What is called physically, this...

Syamasundara: Momentum.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Syamasundara: Momentum.

Prabhupada: Momentum. But as soon as he stops, no more movement. Similarly, a

devotee who has surrendered to Krsna, even he’s found that he’s suffering

from material consequences, that is temporary. Therefore a devotee does not

take any material miseries as misery. He takes as Krsna’s, God’s, mercy.

Bob: But what about a perfected soul, a devotee, a pure devotee?

Prabhupada: Perfected soul means twenty-four hours engaged in Krsna

consciousness. That is perfection. Transcendental position. Perfection means

to be engaged in his original consciousness. That is perfection. That is

stated in the Bhagavad-gita, “Anyone who comes to Me, that is the...”

Samsiddhih labhate param. Samsiddhi. Perfection, complete perfection.

Samsiddhi. Siddhi and samsiddhi. Siddhi is perfection. That is Brahman

realization. And samsiddhi means devotion, after Brahman realization.

Bob: Could you just say that last thing again please?

Prabhupada: Samsiddhi.

Bob: Yes.

Prabhupada: Sam means complete.

Bob: Yes.

Prabhupada: And siddhi means perfection. So in the Bhagavad-gita it is stated

that one who goes back to home, back to Godhead, he has attained the complete

perfection. So perfection means when one realizes that he’s not this body,

he’s spirit soul. Brahma-bhuta. That is called Brahman realization. That is

perfection. And samsiddhi means after Brahman realization, when one is

engaged in devotional service. Therefore, one who is already engaged in

devotional service, it is to be understood that Brahman realization is there.

Therefore it is called samsiddhi.

Bob: I, I, I ask you this very humbly, but do you feel diseases and sickness?

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Bob: Do you personally feel disease and sickness?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bob: Is this a result of your past karma?

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Bob: This is a result of your past karma?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bob: So one in this material world never escapes his karma completely?

Prabhupada: Yes, escapes. No more karma. For a devotee, no more karma

reaction.

Bob: But you must be the best devotee, and you...

Prabhupada: Hmm. No, I don’t consider I am the best devotee. I am the lowest.

Bob: No! No!

Prabhupada: You are the best devotee.

Bob: (laughter) Oh, no! But see, you say, what you say..., it always, always

seems right.

Prabhupada: Yes, but...

Bob: So then you must be the best devotee.

Prabhupada: Yes, the thing is that even the best devotee, when he preaches,

he comes to the second-class devotee.

Bob: What would the best devotee be doing?

Prabhupada: The best devotee does not preach.

Bob: What does he do?

Prabhupada: He sees there is no need of preaching; everyone is devotee. (Bob

laughs) Yes. He sees no more non-devotee, all devotee.

Yasodanandana: Uttama-adhikari?

Prabhupada: Uttama-adhikari. But while I am preaching, how can I say I am the

best devotee? Just like Radharani. She does not see anyone non-devotee.

Therefore we try to approach Radharani

Bob: Who is this?

Prabhupada: Radharani, Krsna’s consort.

Bob: Ah.

Prabhupada: Anyone approaches Radharani, She recommends to Krsna, “Here is

the best devotee. He’s better than me.” And Krsna cannot refuse. That is best

devotee. But it is not to be imitated, “I have become best devotee. Therefore

I have stopped.” That is... Actually, that is a different stage. So even the

best devotee... Without (being) best devotee, he cannot preach actually,

acarya, but he comes to the second stage. Isvare tad-adhinesu balisesu

dvisatsu ca. He has the vision of dvisat, somebody envious of God. But it is

not the vision of the best devotee. Best devotee sees, “Nobody is envious to

God. Everyone is better than me.” Just like Caitanya-caritamrta author,

Krsnadasa Kaviraja. He says that “I am lowest than the worm in the stool.”

Bob: Who was saying this?

Prabhupada: Krsna... The author of Caitanya-caritamrta, Krsnadasa Kaviraja.

Purisera kita haite muni se laghishta. He’s not making a show, he’s feeling

like that, that “I am the lowest. Everyone is best, I am the lowest. Everyone

is engaged in Krsna’s service, I am not engaged.” Just like Caitanya

Mahaprabhu said, “Oh, I have not a pinch of devotion to Krsna. I cry to make

a show. If I would have been a devotee of Krsna I would have died long ago. I

am living; that is the proof that I do not love Krsna.” That is the vision of

the best devotee. He’s so much absorbed in Krsna’s love that he sees,

“Everything is going on; simply I am the lowest, therefore I cannot see God.”

That is best devotee.

Bob: So then a devotee must work for everybody’s liberation?

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. A devotee must work under the direction of a bona fide

spiritual master. Not imitate the best devotee.

Bob: Excuse me?

Prabhupada: Not imitate the best devotee.

Bob: Not, what is that word?

Prabhupada: Imitate.

Devotees: Imitate, imitate.

Bob: Oh, accha, accha, I see. Imitate. (pause) [break]

Syamasundara: ...you said that sometimes you feel pain, some sickness, due to

the sinful activities of your devotees. Is that... Couldn’t sometimes disease

be that, due to that? Caused by that?

Prabhupada: You see, Krsna says that ahem tvah sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami.

So Krsna’s so powerful that He can immediately take up all the sins of others

and immediately make it gone. But when a living entity plays the part on

behalf of Krsna, he also takes the responsibility of these sinful activities

of his devotee. So to become a guru is not an easy task. You see? He has to

take all the poisons and absorb. So sometimes, because he’s not Krsna, so

sometimes there is some trouble. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu forbidden that

“Don’t make many sisyas, many disciples.” But for preaching Mahaprabhu's work

we have to accept many disciples, for expanding preaching. Never mind we

suffer. But that’s a fact. The spiritual master has to take the

responsibility of all the sinful activities of his disciples. So to make many

disciple is a risky job unless he’s able to assimilate all the sins. (pause)

[break]... patitanam pavanebhyo. He takes responsibility for all the fallen

souls. That is... That idea is in Bible. Just like Jesus Christ take all the

sinful reaction of all people and sacrificed his life. That is the

responsibility of spiritual master. Because he’s Krsna’s representative. So

Krsna takes all responsibility. Krsna is Krsna, apapa-viddham. He cannot be

attacked by any sinful reaction. But a living entity may be subjected

sometimes, because he’s small. Big fire, small fire. On a small fire if you

put some big things, (chuckling) then the fire itself may be extinguished. In

the big fire, whatever you put, that’s all right. Finished. The big fire can

consume anything.

Bob: So Christ’s suffering was of that nature?

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Bob: Was Christ’s suffering this...

Prabhupada: That I have already explained, that he took the sinful reaction

of all the people, therefore he suffered.

Bob: I see.

Prabhupada: He said... That is the Bible, that he has taken all the sinful

reactions of the people and he sacrificed his life. But these Christian

people, they have made it a law that “Christ will suffer and we shall do all

nonsense.” Such great fools they are. They are... “Let Jesus Christ make

contract for taking all one sinful reaction, and we will go on with all

nonsense.” That is their religion. This... They are not in sense that “Christ

is so magnanimous that he took all our sins and he has suffered... We stop

all these sins!” They have not come to that sense. They have taking it very

easily: “Let Lord Jesus Christ suffer, and we do all nonsense.” Is it not?

Bob: It is so.

Prabhupada: Yes. They should have been ashamed that “Lord Jesus Christ

suffered for us. Instead of... We are continuing the sinful activities still.

He asked everyone, ‘Thou shall not kill,’ and we are indulging in killing.”

And “Lord Jesus Christ will excuse us, take all the sinful reaction.” This is

going on. [break] ...should be very much cautious that “For my sinful actions

my spiritual master will suffer. So I’ll not commit a pinch of sinful

action.” That is the duty of the disciple. After initiation his all sinful

reaction is finished. Now if he again commits sinful activities, the

spiritual master has to suffer. They should be sympathetic for this, that

“For my sinful activities my spiritual master will suffer.” [break]

...attacked with some disease it is due to the sinful activities of the

disciples. Exactly like Lord Jesus Christ was crucified on account of the

sinful activities of others. [break] ...forbidden, “Don’t make many

disciples.” But we do because we are preaching. Never mind, let us suffer;

still, we shall accept. [break]... question was that when I suffer it is due

to my past misdeeds? Was it not?

Bob: Yes, yes, yes.

Prabhupada: That is my misdeed, that I accept a disciple who is nonsense.

That is my misdeed.

Bob: This happens on occasion?

Prabhupada: Yes, this is sure to happen because we are accepting so many men.

But it is the duty of the disciple to be cautious. That “My spiritual master

saved me. I may not put him again into these sufferings.” [break] When the

spiritual master is in suffering, Krsna saves him. Krsna thinks, “Oh, he has

taken so much responsibility for delivering a fallen person.” So Krsna is

there. Kaunteya pratijanihi na me bhaktah pranasyati. Because the spiritual

master takes the risk on account of Krsna.

Bob: So your suffering is not the same kind of pain that an impure person...

Prabhupada: No, it is not due to karma. The pain is there sometimes so that

the disciples may know that “Due to our sinful activities my spiritual master

is suffering.” [break]

Bob: ...very well now. break