Guru & Disciple

[Guest guest]

> There was a question:

> Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada says the guru takes the disciple’s

> sins, papa.

>

> The answer given was:

> Never. The bona fide guru is qualified. He is like fire. He will burn

> everything away. Why will he take it himself? He will not take the fruits

> from the disciple’s karma. Never will he take them. He will at once, by his

> mercy, quickly burn all. Not, there is nothing to be confused about. But, if

> the guru is not qualified, if he is not tattva-jnani, or if he is a

> kanistha-adhikari, then he will take all the sins. A madhyama-adhikari who

> is at the level of madhyama-uttama, oh, he will burn everything.

>

> This answer is trying to prove Prabhupada wrong or kanishtha. Anybody can

> give the proper answer or explanation on this?

 

Often there is the problem of semantics. The above answer, whoever spoke it,

says that the guru never takes the sins of the disciple. But he also

simultaneously admits that the guru will burn up the sins. That statement

itself means that the guru does "take" the sins. This confirmed in sastra.

 

In Sriila Saanatana Goswami's Hari-bhakti-vilaasa the following verse from

SaarasaNGgraha appears:

 

raaNji caamaatyaja doSaam

patnii paapam svabhartari

tathaa SiSyarjjitam paapam

guruh praapnoti niScitam

 

"Just as a king accepts the innumerable sins of the citizens, and the husband

accepts those of his wife, the guru similarly takes on the sins of his

disciples." HBV 1.1.150 (please excuse my feeble attempt at wincom

diacritics)

 

Our Srila Prabhupada has confirmed this in various places. Here are five such

references:

 

"One who accepts the post of spiritual master neutralizes the sinful reactions

of the yajamäna, the one on whose behalf he performs yajna. Thus the results

of the pious acts previously performed by the priest or spiritual master are

diminished. Therefore priesthood is not accepted by learned brähmanas.

Nevertheless, the greatly learned brähmana Visvarüpa became the priest of the

demigods because of his profound respect for them." (SB 6.7.35 Purport)

 

and...

 

"Because of sinful activities, at night we have bad dreams, which are very

troublesome. Indeed, Mahäräja Yudhisthira was obliged to see hell because of a

slight deviation from devotional service to the Lord. Therefore, dusvapna —

bad dreams — occur because of sinful activities. A devotee sometimes accepts a

sinful person as his disciple, and to counteract the sinful reactions he

accepts from the disciple, he has to see a bad dream. Nonetheless, the

spiritual master is so kind that in spite of having bad dreams due to the

sinful disciple, he accepts this troublesome business for the deliverance of

the victims of Kali-yuga. After initiation, therefore, a disciple should be

extremely careful not to commit again any sinful act that might cause

difficulties for himself and the spiritual master. Before the Deity, before

the fire, before the spiritual master and before the Vaisnavas, the honest

disciple promises to refrain from all sinful activity. Therefore he must not

again commit sinful acts and thus create a troublesome situation.

SB 8.4.16 Purport

 

[NOTE: When Srila Prabhupada says "we" he is referring to himself.]

 

and...

 

"Accepting an unlimited number of devotees or disciples is very risky for one

who is not a preacher. According to Srila Jiva Gosvämi, a preacher has to

accept many disciples to expand the cult of Sri Caitanya Mahäprabhu. This is

risky because when a spiritual master accepts a disciple, he naturally accepts

the disciple’s sinful activities and their reactions. Unless he is very

powerful, he cannot assimilate all the sinful reactions of his disciples and

has to suffer the consequences. Therefore one is generally forbidden to accept

many disciples." Cc Madhya 22.118 Purport

 

and...

 

"As Krsna takes away all the sinful reactions of a person immediately upon his

surrender unto Him, similarly the external manifestation of Krsna, the

representative of Krsna who acts as the mercy of the Supreme Personality of

Godhead, takes all the resultant actions of the sinful life of the disciple

immediately after the disciple’s initiation. Thus if the disciple follows the

principles instructed by the spiritual master, he remains purified and is not

contaminated by the material infection. Sri Caitanya Mahäprabhu therefore

states that the spiritual master who plays the part of Krsna’s representative

has to consume all the sinful reactions of his disciple."

SB 4.21.31 Purport

 

and finally...

 

"Syamasundara: One time you said that sometimes you feel sickness or pain due

to the sinful activities of your devotees. Can sometimes disease be due to

that? Caused by that?

 

[NOTE: The question itself states that Prabhupada previously mentioned that

he feels pain due to his disciples' sins. Srila Prabhupada did not refute the

premise of this question as he could've and say "No. Never."]

 

Srila Prabhupada: You see, Krsna says:

 

aham tväm sarva-päpebhyo

moksayisyämi mä sucaù [bg. 18.66]

 

“I will deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear.”

 

So Krsna is so powerful that He can immediately take up all the

sins of others and immediately make them right. But when a living entity

plays the part on behalf of Krsna, he also takes the responsibility for the

sinful activities of his devotees. Therefore to become a guru is not an easy

task. You see? He has to take all the poisons and absorb them. So

sometimes — because he is not Krsna — sometimes there is some trouble.

Therefore Caitanya Mahäprabhu has forbidden, “Don’t make many sisyas, many

disciples.” But for preaching work we have to accept many disciples — for

expanding preaching — even if we suffer. That’s a fact. The spiritual master

has to take the responsibility for all the sinful activities of his

disciples. Therefore to make many disciples is a risky job unless one is able

to assimilate all the sins.

 

vanchä-kalpa-tarubhyas ca

krpä-sindhubhya eva ca

patitänäm pävanebhyo

vaisnavebhyo namo namah

 

[“I offer my respectful obeisances unto all the Vaisnava devotees of the

Lord. They are just like desire trees who can fulfill the desires of

everyone, and they are full of compassion for the fallen conditioned

souls.”] He takes responsibility for all the fallen souls. That idea is also

in the Bible. Jesus Christ took all the sinful reactions of the people and

sacrificed his life. That is the responsibility of a spiritual master.

Because Krsna is Krsna, He is apäpa-viddha — He cannot be attacked by sinful

reactions. But a living entity is sometimes subjected to their influence

because he is so small. Big fire, small fire. If you put some big thing in a

small fire, the fire itself may be extinguished. But in a big fire, whatever

you put in is all right. The big fire can consume anything.

 

Bob: Christ’s suffering was of that nature?

 

Srila Prabhupäda: Mm-m?

 

Bob: Was Christ’s suffering—

 

Srila Prabhupäda: That I have already explained. He took the sinful

reactions of all the people. Therefore he suffered."

 

Conclusion:

 

My understanding is that both Jesus Christ and Srila Prabhupada are far above

being a madhyama-adhikari, even a very advanced madhyama-adhikari

(uttama-madhyama). But still, they both seemed to suffer from taking on the

sins of many disciples. As Srila Prabhupada said, "But a living entity is

sometimes subjected to their (sinful reactions) influence."

 

Thus my conclusion is that the above statement in question is not exactly

correct, although the principle that one, according his his power, can absorb

or burn up the disciple's reactions, is correct. However, if we accept the

statements made above by Srila Prabhupada, even empowered saints such as Jesus

Christ and Srila Prabhupada himself had to undergo some suffering on account

of the influence of these voluntarily accepted sins from their respective

disciples.

 

ys pcd