Speculation, Sentiment, and Vaisnava Etiquette...An open letter to

[Guest guest]

Hare Krsna!

 

On 2 Jul 1999, Vijay Pai wrote:

 

> On 30 Jun 1999, Mahananda Dasa wrote:

> > So take heed my beloved pilgrims

> > as our teachers to us have warned

> > and beware of mental speculator

> > and logicians to be sure.

>

> > (offered to my beloved spiritual master

> > A.C. Bhaktivadanta Swami Prabhupada)

>

> Your spiritual master would certainly _not_ be pleased

> by your mental speculation to "beware of logicians," since he

> explicitly stated:

>

> "Everything is full of sense and logic, and the exchange of views

> between the master and disciple is possible only when the reception

> is submissive and real. In the _Chaitanya-charitaamR^ita_ it is said

> that one should receive the teaching of Lord Chaitanya with intellect

> and full senses so that one can logically understand the great

> mission. ..." Srimad Bhagavatam 2.3.20 purport

>

> Srila Prabhupada thus commands us to understand Lord Chaitanya's

> mission as logicians, not as sentimentalists or brainwashed

> cultists.

>

> Yours,

>

> Vijay S. Pai

 

 

 

Dear respected prabhu,

I have noted your remarks with interest. I think maybe this is a repeat of my

experiences with your good self on BTG Digest before I decided to stop posting

there. I feel there is more at issue here than the authenticity of this verse.

More important is the question of respect for others,Vaisnava association ,and

etiquette. Interestingly, on this topic I was just reading today what a

gentleman devotee was posting on another forum about communication between

Vaisnavas.. Praghosa dasa writes..

------

 

"I also believe that unless vaisnava etiquette is observed, there is hardly

any possible conclusion when arguments abound. Common sense oblige the

participants to respect it at all cost"

'

'We have seen from the example of vaisnavas in days of yore that kindness is

one of the best allies in sastric debates. Moreover, when one party excels in

bringing good arguments, the other party will not hesitate in adopting the

proper conclusion even though of a different opinion at first. It is assumed

that vaisnavas are adverse to remain on the false ego platform''.

 

''In additon, when one remains on the false ego platform after having been

defeated and refuses to acknowledge the facts while continuing to use harsh

words in a manner of defence, this produces an unwanted situation that

provokes the departure of participants of good-will who refuse to hear

aparadha committed towards another vaisnava''.

 

Let us behave like gentlemen, profit from the exchanges and attract others to

the forums by such a conduct.

 

Humbly,...(Praghosa dasa)

 

OM TAT SAT

............................................................................................

 

 

Interesting advise, dont you agree? Maybe we could profit from adopting this

behavior in the future. If we are concerned with pleasing Srila Prabhupada,

that would do it. As conditioned souls, we can not always know everything, so

the best way to deal with other Vaisnavas is to always remain humble and

respectful for fear that we commit offenses or our comments will inadvertantly

criticize a great acarya as well, or even Srila Prabhupada. The reason I say

this is because actually the verse being condemned is taken almost word for

word from a quote by a Vaisnava acarya. Srila Prabhupada said in an earlier

book that this acarya has warned us against arguers and logicians, who are

like thieves and robbers on the path of devotional service. They shall spoil

our serving mood by their mentality, it was stated, so they should be avoided.

So my idea was the same when I wrote my verse.

 

"So take heed my beloved pilgrims

as our teachers to us have warned

and beware of mental speculator

and logicians to be sure.

 

They lie as thieves and robbers

on the path that we are on

and strip us of our serving mood

and rob us of our song.''

 

Of course, anyone can see that this verse does not belittle logic or promote

sentimentalism. Calling Me a sentimentalist is almost humorous. I am quite the

opposite. I am the other one---the mental speculator. 30 years ago I wrote to

Srila Prabhupada confessing this enigma to him, and explaining that my wife

Hladini (later killed in Africa), on the other hand was given to sentiment. He

wrote me back saying, ''Yes, there are both the sentimentalist and the mental

speculator. Neither one of them will go back to godhead'' So we worked hard to

overcome both these extremes.

 

Over and over, Srila Prabhupada does instructs us to use logic and reason to

accept devotional service with intelligence. Blind following is condemned. We

learned this the first few weeks I was at the temple after joining in Detroit

in 1969. So, I do not mind , my dear Vijaya, if you feel the need, your

reminding me of the fact. It is always good to hear it again.

 

But i might humbly request that better for setting examples for others it can

be done with humility and compassion, rejecting challenging and argumentative

mentality without any consideration of Vaisnava etiquette, lest we become

examples of the very mood that is warned against in the mentioned verse from

my poem. To find one verse that supports our one-sided argument, and then use

that to denounce the preaching of other disciples of Srila Prabhupada can

disrupt our own devotional process.

 

Anyone who has been in Krsna consciousness even for a little while has

understood that while the path of devotional service is not understood by

material logicians, still everything must be understood by all reason and

logic. So, nowhere is logic condemned in our tradition, but also nowhere are

logicians and mental speculators accepted as devotees. Therefore, your

statement ''> Srila Prabhupada thus commands us to understand Lord Chaitanya's

mission as logicians'' can not actually be found anywhere in our literatures.

But just the same, I know you did not mean material logicians, so i am not

belaboring the point.

I write this in all due respect, Mahananda dasa

 

[after writing the above response, I just returned from the Bhagavatam class

this morning and was appriciative of the verse and purport. It will certainly

help me to improve MY behavior to others in the future] the verse and purport

were......

Canto 4, 8, 34

 

Every man should act like this: when he meets a person more qualified than

himself, he should be very pleased; when he meets someone less qualified than

himself, he should be compassionate toward him; and when he meets someone

equal to himself, he should make friendship with him. In this way one is never

affected by the threefold miseries of this material world.

 

PURPORT

 

Generally when we find someone more qualified than ourselves, we become

envious of him; when we find someone less qualified, we deride him; and when

we find someone equal we become very proud of our activities. These are the

causes of all material tribulations. The great sage Narada therefore advised

that a devotee should act perfectly. Instead of being envious of a more

qualified man, one should be jolly to receive him. Instead of being oppressive

to a less qualified man, one should be compassionate toward him just to raise

him to the proper standard. And when one meets an equal, instead of being

proud of one's own activities before him, one should treat him as a friend.

One should also have compassion for the people in general, who are suffering

due to forgetfulness of Krsna. These important functions will make one happy

within this material world.

 

below are some quotes shedding light on this question of logic and

logicians(the ones promoting logic are near the bottom of the list.)

 

 

Introduction

The philosophers and the logicians have tried to understand the intrinsic

relationship of living entities with God by various conceptions and methods,

on the strength of their mundane education and scholastic research. But the

Absolute Truth remains above the philosophers and their acquired knowledge.

The conception of the Absolute is never perfectly attained by such an

ascending process, because of its being born of imperfect, material senses.

These empiric philosophers and logicians cannot realize their imperfection by

the vanity of material knowledge, and the ultimate conclusion of such

materialistic philosophers is atheism.

 

 

© 1991 by Bhaktivedanta Book Trust

 

Nectar of Devotion: Introduction :Invoking auspiciousness

Srila Rupa Gosvami prays to his spiritual master, Srila Sanatana Gosvami,

for the protection of Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu--"The Ocean of the Pure Nectar of

Devotional Service"--from the argumentative logicians who unnecessarily meddle

in the science of service to the Lord. He compares their arguments and logic

to volcanic eruptions in the midst of the ocean. In the midst of the ocean,

volcanic eruptions can do very little harm, and similarly, those who are

against devotional service to the Lord and who put forward many philosophical

theses about the ultimate transcendental realization cannot disturb this great

ocean of devotional service.

 

© 1991 by Bhaktivedanta Book Trust

 

For logicians who want to accept only that which is proven through logic and

argument, it is a fact that without logic and reason there can be no question

of accepting the Absolute Truth. Unfortunately, when such logicians take to

this path without the mercy of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, they remain on the

platform of logic and argument and do not advance in spiritual life. However,

if one is intelligent enough to apply his arguments and logic to the subtle

understanding of the fundamental spiritual substance, he will be able to know

thata poor fund of knowledge established on the basis of material logic cannot

help one understand the Absolute Truth, which is beyond the reach of imperfect

senses. The Mahabharata therefore says: acintyah khalu ye bhava na tams

tarkena yojayet (Mahabharata, Bhisma parva. 5.22). How can that which is

beyond the imagination or sensory speculation of mundane creatures be

approached simply by logic? Logic and argument are very poor in spiritual

strength and always imperfect when applied to spiritual understanding. By

putting forward mundane logic one frequently comes to the wrong conclusion

regarding the Absolute Truth, and as a result of such a conclusion one may

fall down to accept a body like that of a jackal.

 

© 1991 by Bhaktivedanta Book Trust

 

Despite all this, those who are actually inquisitive to understand the

philosophy of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu through logic and argument are welcome.

Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami addresses them, "Please put Sri Caitanya

Mahaprabhu's mercy to your crucial test, and if you are actually a logician

you will come to the right conclusion that there is no personality more

merciful than Lord Caitanya." Let the logicians compare all the results of

other humanitarian work with the merciful activities of Lord Caitanya. If

their judgment is impartial, they will understand that no other humanitarian

activities can surpass those of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

© 1991 by Bhaktivedanta Book Trust

 

Furthermore, one should not concern oneself with the conclusions of various

logicians or philosophers. Of course, those who preach sometimes need to argue

with the contentions of opponents, but as much as possible one should avoid an

argumentative attitude. In this connection, Srila Madhvacarya says:

 

aprayojana-paksam na samsrayet

naprayojana-paksi syan

na vrtha sisya-bandha-krt

na codasinah sastrani

na viruddhani cabhyaset

na vyakhyayopajiveta

na nisiddhan samacaret

evam-bhuto yatir yati

tad-eka-sarano harim

 

"There is no need to take shelter of unnecessary literature or concern

oneself with many so-called philosophers and thinkers who are useless for

spiritual advancement.

 

© 1991 by Bhaktivedanta Book Trust

 

 

"Everyone has heard of Krsna, the master of Goloka. Sri Krsna whose pastimes

expansion is Narayana, is the Supreme Truth. He lives eternally in Vrndavana.

Sri Caitanya is nondifferent from Krsna, and Nabadwipa is nondifferent from

Vrndavana. Nbadwipa is the topmost spiritual abode, situated beyond this

material universe. There, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu stays eternally. By My mercy

that divine abode has descended within this world, and yet remains unaffected

by the deluding energy. This is confirmed by scripture. If one thinks

Nabadwipa to be only a material location, his devotion will be destroyed. By

My will My inconceivable energy maintians the entire transcendental realm

within this material world. It is not possible to understand this higher truth

by studying the scriptures with the help of reason and logic, for the infinite

transcends all logical analysis. I can only be understood by thi\ose devotees

to whom i reveal Myself by divine Grace''

 

#################################################

 

Everything is full of sense and logic, and the exchange of views between the

master and disciple is possible only when the reception is submissive and real

S B 2 3 20

...............................................................................................................................

it is described here that one has to associate with liberated persons not

directly, physically, but by understanding, through philosophy and logic, the

problems of life S B 3 31 48

 

...............................................................................................................................

Prahlada Maharaja continued: I received this knowledge from the great saint

Narada Muni, who is always engaged in devotional service. This knowledge,

which is called bhagavata-dharma, is fully scientific. It is based on logic

and philosophy and is free from all material contamination.SB 7 6 28

...............................................................................................................................

" `One who is expert in logic and understanding of revealed scriptures, and

who always has firm conviction and deep faith that is not blind, is to be

considered a topmost devotee in devotional service.' Madhya lila 22 66

..............................................................................................................................

Pabhupada's Lectures Bhagavad-gita 1966 660728BG.NY

Satam prasangan, taj-josanad asv apavarga vartmani. And if you do that...

Suppose you hear something of the Bhagavad-gita, and it appeals to you, or

even does not appeal to you. Just try to think over: "What Bhagavad-gita

says? How Swamiji has discussed this matter?" Apply your arguments. Apply

your logic. Don't take it as a sentiment or as a blind faith. You have got

reason; you have got arguments; you have got sense. Apply it and try to

understand it. Neither it is bogus. It is scientific. Then you will feel...

Taj-josanad asv apavarga-vartmani sraddha ratir bhaktir anukramisyati. You

will gradually develop your attachment for hearing it, and devotional service

will binvoked in your heart, and then, gradually, you will make progress.

..................................................................................................................

'' So Krishna Consciousness has got inexhaustible treasurehouse of philosophy,

logic and science to convince people about God-consciousness''

(letter to disciple)