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> > It is vai-kuntha because it is free from fear. It is free from fear

> > because nobody is ever *forced* to leave that place. He *may* do so by

> > his own free will because he has minute independence without which a

> > jiva soul becomes a robot. This independence always remains there, even

> > after the jiva comes back to the spiritual world, he again *may* misuse

> > this independence. So in this sense it can be said that life in the

> > material world is not necessarily a one-time journey.

>

> Please read my comment on Sridam's text, it deals with this issue. This

> question is actually very deep because if we accept the fall theory we

> will have to accept that there is no pure love of God. The minute

> independence is always there but the residents of the spiritual world

> never misuse it and therefore they are called infallible. When somebody

> falls down we usually do not say that he was forced to fall down but

> rather that this was his desire, so they are infallible not because they

> are never forced to fall down but because they never have such a desire.

 

Very interesting question indeed. Your base point is that a pure devotee

never forgets Krsna, which is correct, but you come to a conclusion which

previous acaryas do not seem to be agreeing with.

 

1. First of all, of course, Lord Caitanya's siksastaka

 

ayi nanda-tanuja kinkaram

patitam mam visame bhavambudhau

krpaya tava pada-pankaja

sthita-dhuli-sadrsam vicintaya

 

Srila Prabhupada translates 'patitam mam visame bhavambudhau' as "somehow or

other I have fallen into the ocean of birth and death". Here Lord Caitanya

plays the role of an ordinary conditioned soul (as BVT states in his

commentary to this verse, and as Lord Caitanya proves in the second verse of

Siksastaka). What can you say about this? If Srila Prabhupada would have in

mind what you are saying, he would obviously not translate it this way.

 

2. Srila Sanatana Goswami's Brhad-Bhagavatamrta (2.6.76).

 

ciradrsta-prana-priya-sakham ivavapya sa tu mam

kare dhrtva vama-sva-kara-kamalena prabhu-varah

vicitram samprasnam vidadhad akhilams tan vraja-janan

samanandya sriman avisad ibha-gami vraja-varam

 

cira - for a long time; adrsta - not seen; prana - life; priya - dear;

sakham - friend; iva - as if; avapya - attaining; sah - He; tu - indeed; mam

- me; kare - by the hand; dhrtva - taking; vama-sva-kara-kamalena - in His

own left lotus hand; prabhu-varah - the Lord; vicitram - wonderful;

samprasnam - question; vidadhat - placing; akhilan - all; tan - them; vraja

- of Vraja; janan - the people; samanandya - delighting; sriman - handsome;

avisat - entered; ibha - as an elephant; gami - walking; vraja-varam - to

Vraja.

 

"Having attained me, a friend more dear than life He had not seen for a long

time, taking my hand in His left lotus hand, asking me wonderful questions,

bringing happiness to all the people of Vraja, and walking as gracefully as

an elephant, the handsome Lord entered the village of Vraja."

 

Please look at the words 'cira adrsta'. They mean that originally Sarupa, or

Gopa Kumara, was in the spiritual world with Krsna, but then he left His

company for a long time, and now he is back there again. What do you reply

to this? You may object that he is a rare exception. But why do the acaryas

always write only about rare exceptions ? I rather tend to take the

person of Gopa Kumara playing the role of an ordinary soul.

 

 

3. Jagadananda Pandita's Prema-vivarta 6.2

 

krsna-bahirmukha haiya bhoga-vancha kare

nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare

 

"Turning his face away from Krsna, the jiva develops the desire to enjoy.

Standing nearby, Maya slaps him and seizes hold of him."

 

Please read further texts (6.3-6.5) [unfortunately I don't have Bengali for

them]:

 

"Thus the jiva soul, forgetting his constitutional position as the eternal

servant of Krsna, perfect and pure, becomes a slave of maya. In this

condition he roams eternally in the material world from one body to another.

He goes through many births, sometimes born as a king, sometimes as an

ordinary citizen, sometimes as a brahmana and sometimes as a sudra (a menial

laborer). Sometimes he is suffering, and sometimes he is happy. Sometimes he

is born as an insect, and sometimes he goes to heaven. Then sometimes he has

to come down to this earth again, and sometimes he has to go to hell.

Sometimes he is born as a demigod, sometimes as a demon, sometimes as the

master and other times the servant."

 

 

4. Already quoted verse from Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura to which you did not

reply (Song 12 of B€ul Sa‰g…t):

 

(1)

ho’ye visaye €vea, pe’le, mana, j€tan€ aea

ch€i’ r€dh€-y€me braja-dh€me,

bhugcho heth€ n€n€-klea

 

"My dear mind, you have brought unending trouble upon yourself under the

sway of material sense gratification. Leaving the company of R€dh€-®y€ma in

Vraja-dh€ma, you have come to this material world and suffered a host of

painful miseries."

 

More quotes from BVT (all of them speak by themselves]:

 

Saranagati, Song One, Dainya [Humility]

 

(1)

bhuliya tomare, samsare asiya

peye nana-bidha byatha

tomara carane, asiyachi ami

bolibo duhkhera katha

 

bhuliya--forgetting; tomare--You; samsare--in the material world;

asiya--going; peye--I experience; nana-bidha--differnt kinds;

byatha--sufferings; tomara--of You; carane--at the feet; asiyachi--I went;

ami--I; bolibah--I will say; duhkhera--of sufferings; katha--the

description.

 

"My dear Lord, I have come to the material world by forgetting You. Since I

have come here I have suffered many troubles for a long time through many

different species of life. Therefore I have come to surrender unto You and

submit unto You the story of my suffering."

 

 

 

Kalyana-kalpataru, Second Branch [upalabdhi, "attainment of realization'],

Chapter Three [sambandha-abhidheya-prayojana-vijnana], song one [sambandha]:

 

(21)

 

sei maya adarser samasta bisesa

loiya gathilo bisva jahe purna klesa

 

This illusory energy maya, has created the material universe exactly like an

imitation model of the real spiritual variegatedness, but with the added

feature of being full of various miseries.

 

(22)

 

jiba jadi hoilena krsna-bahimukha

mayadevi tabe ta'r jachilena sukha

 

If by chance a living entity becomes averse to the Supreme Lord Krsna, then

Mayadevi's duty is to voluntarily offer her temptations of material

happiness.

 

(23)

 

maya-sukhe matta jiba sri-krsna bhulilo

sei se avidya-base asmita janmilo

 

Intoxicated by maya's illusory happiness, the living entity then forgets

Krsna. Under the influence of such ignorance, false egoistic selfishness

arises.

 

 

 

***************************************************************************

 

This is what I got without serious research, and I believe one can find much

more quotes like that. Your basic statement was true, but your conclusion

seems to be wrong. If some of the jivas were originally placed by Krsna in

the Vaikunthas to serve Him eternally [and they are those pure devotees who,

as you say, never fall down], and others were originally put to the world of

birth and death, then one naturally asks, why this other part of jivas is

destined to suffer? There seem to be no cause to their suffering while in

the tranditional model such cause is there, it's jiva's desire.

 

Please reply.

 

ys

[Guest guest]

>>want to read ONE statment from SRILA PRABHUPADA that said that

>>yes,we conditioned souls we were part of the most intimate and elevated

>>topic of bhakti yoga,the rasa lila etc

 

All of Vrindavana is engaged in the service of the conjugal pastimes of

Radha and Krishna, and one need not to be a gopi, nor in rasa-lila to be

engaged in the pastimes of Radha and Krishna. One may be in any of the

primary five rasas.

 

In Vraja the trees, the birds, even the clouds, all that there be, is

engaged in enhancing the loving relationship of Radha and Krishna.

 

ys, ekatma das.