Taking Srila Prabhupada Straight

[Guest guest]

On 22 Sep 1999, Srila Dasa wrote:

 

> On 22 Sep 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

> > Does this process also work with regards to offenses made to one's own

godbrothers?

>

> Do you have some realizations to offer?

>

 

 

My only realization is that I try to offend everyone equally. It is maya to

discriminate based simply on sense gratification.

[Guest guest]

On 22 Sep 1999, Bhagavata-purana das wrote:

> Krsna-katha conference is not definitely the place for these exchanges.

 

If we harbor offenses to unassailable souls, then we will never taste the

fruit of Krsna-katha, in spite of our hearing and chanting. This is confirmed

both in Caitanya-bhagavata and CC.

 

Furthermore, in Cc Krsna dasa Kaviraja enjoins us not to avoid controversial

issues in the name of some sentimental understanding of Krsna consciousness.

In fact discussing such "hot" issues can make our understanding more firm and

grounded, and others may benefit as well.

 

Okay, everyone has their own tolerance for "spicy" food. Some like their KC

more "plain" than others. Fine. But such controversial talks, when properly

performed are edifying and at times, essential. Not that they should be all we

"eat," either. Balanced diet should be there. But a few chilis, with some

ghee, helps digestion and aids strength.

 

 

> I want to know particularly how do you realize that "these GBC position

papers to be distortions and half-truths". If you have better arguments,

please give them.

 

It is not merely a matter of "better arguments"; we have to become sincerely

inquisitive to know the truth. We must also become familiar with the history.

KC is not a disembodied philosophy. Without knowing the history, anyone can

say anything and get away with it. History constrains us to speak within the

limits of certain documentable facts.

 

Personally, I find your idea of "convince me!" as somewhat *disingenuous*

(look up the word if you don't already know it, at least you'll learn that

much from me -- a new word), especially after your previously feigned

submissions of humility. Why should I waste my time on someone who seems to

be a fake? Stay with an *abhasa* of bhakti, if you are satisfied with that. It

is beyond my power to teach someone who thinks they already know everything.

 

No one can "convince" us of anything we don't want to know. When we become

disposed to hear something, then we will more readily accept it. But if we

don't care for something, we will never believe it, no matter how much good

argument is offered.

 

No one can convince anyone against their will. Aside from hearing from an

actual tattva-darsana, real understanding comes only after pain, sweat and

sacrifice. I can give you some references, but I will leave you to do the

footwork of exhuming some history about ISKCON's history with the Gaudiya

Math.

 

When you are prepared to some homework, then I can answer some real questions.

Otherwise, we are wasting each other's time.

 

Those who are wise will take any judicious word of caution seriously. I bow my

head at such devotees' feet. They are my teachers, although I may be

speaking. I am simply pleading for an end to the hostilities between

Vaisnavas. It is texts like Ravindra's that perpetuate the misunderstandings.

As long as sadhu-ninda is going on, there is no question of a proper

philosophical understanding. Can you even entertain the possibility that there

is a problem here? Do you have any common sense?

 

After all, who is falling down? Not Narayan Maharaja. No one in the Gaudiya

Math. But how many Acaryas in ISKCON have fallen? Only last year, the

biggest and the best of them fell. Who will be next?

 

> Counteract RSV letter and the GBC position papers with the right view,

> give us the right perspective to understand Srila Prabhupada´s letter to

Rupanuga. Do it if you have the arguments, the knowledge and the

> realization.

 

If you are serious, here are some references to investigate:

 

 

1) Our Affectionate Guardians

An Historical Account

85 pp, 5" X 7"

 

a) this booklet used to be posted on this website:

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/index.html

 

b) you can order it here:

http://hgsoft.com/bbooks/

or http://www.mandala.com

 

Summary This concise and well-documented volume details the long

relationship between Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sridhara Maharaja. In a

straightforward and inoffensive way, it also documents dealings between Srila

Sridhara Maharaja and ISKCON after the departure of Srila Prabhupada, and sets

straight many misconceptions which persist even today. Required reading for

any devotee interested in understanding the do's and don'ts of Vaishnava

dealings.

 

-------------------------

3) The Heart of Krishna

by Srila Bhakti Pramode Puri Maharaja

available at http://www.mandala.com

 

I highly recommend this book. An entire volume exhorting us to glorify

devotees and cautioning us to avoid sadhu-ninda.

 

 

2) http://www.vrindavan.org/vrindakunja/store.htm

 

The search for Purity from Swami B.A. Paramadvaiti

Summary This book is especially compiled for members of the Gaudiya

Vaisnava family, disciples of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, and those

of Srila Bhakti Raksaka Sridhar Maharaj as well as their respective disciples.

They will get the greatest benefit from the historical details clarified here

even though it may help scholars or anyone dealing with organized religion to

get a better understanding of the vaisnava tradition and religious philosophy.

The author herewith declares that this book was written for those who have

been personally involved, and that simple observers will not be able to get a

clear understanding simply by reading this book.

 

«The Search for Purity» is now available as one document in Rich Text Format

(RTF), compressed as Zip-file 164kb).

If you like to read first some short examples, go to...

 

3) You can check:

http://vnn.org

 

a) my recent posting "Let's Not Perpetuate Sectarian Dogmas in the Name of

Srila Prabhupada.

 

b) Many other pertinent articles, by doing a search Narayan Maharaja.

 

 

If I have committed any offense, please forgive. Enlighten me and correct me.

 

 

Dasananudasa

Srila dasa

[Guest guest]

Dear Srila Prabhu, Pamho. AgtSP.

 

> As a matter of principle, Narayan Maharaja does not reinitiate disciples

> of bona fide gurus. However, sometimes devotees approaching him for

> initiation have not been straightforward to Maharaja and he re-initiates

> them without being properly informed. That is one problem.

 

1. Don't you think it is a bit irresponsible to initiate someone without

knowing him? Before getting initiation, I waited for 1.5 year and had

plenghty of time to get to know with my Guru Maharaja. He had all the time

he wanted to find out if I was initiated before. Initiating without knowing

someone was also going on in ISKCON, but I think we realized how bad this

is. Why does Narayana Maharaja not introduce some check system?

 

2. Suppose I am a disciple of Param Gati Maharaja. Would you excpect him to

tell me this about Narayana Maharaja: "There is one wonderful devotee,

Narayana Maharaja, who has reinitiated some of my disciples and has some

interesting explanations of the Isopanisada's Invocation etc. Please go,

rush to hear from him." And imagine that Param Gati Maharaja has about 1000

disciples and they hear that Narayana Maharaja has reinitiated some of their

godbrothers. What feelings do you expect from those 1000 devotees? I know

how I would feal if he reinitiates some of my godbrothers or -sisters.

 

3. What do you think, how did Param Gati Maharaja fealt hearing that some of

his disciples (he might have personaly made them devotees, building

relationship with them etc.) were reinitiated by someone else, having

rejected him?

 

4. If you were to kick me and I to defend myself, and somebody comes by and

tells me I am offencive and I should appologize, is that resonable?

 

5. Did Narayana Maharaja ask for forgiveness from Param Gati Maharaja,

Indradyumna Maharaja, Satsvarupa Maharaja, Gopala Krishna Maharaja etc. that

they MIGHT HAVE FELT OFFENDED by him incidently (or unknowingly)

reinitiating their disciples? If not, can you sincerely ask or plea for good

sentiments toward Narayana Maharaja on their part and the part of their

disciples?

 

Whatever the history may be, I don't think these question touch the history

that you have spoken about. I don't say there is nothing to it, but not for

these questions.

 

your servant Atmarama das

[Guest guest]

And some more questions (please don't take them as a challenge, but for the

matter of clarification):

 

1. Speaking about sadhu-ninda, do you consider any of the following devotees

to be sadhus, as per Srila Prabhupada's definition in Bg 4.8:

 

- Paramgati Maharaja,

- Jayapataka Maharaja,

- Satsvarupa Maharaja,

- Indradyumna Maharaja,

- Gopala Krishna Maharaja.

 

If yes, don't you find Narayana Maharaja responsible for sadhu-ninda, having

reinitiated some of their disciples?

 

2. I have been told by one devotee in a private letter (which means he does

not wants to be involved) that he has heard from a direct disciple of

Narayana Maharaja that he said he would reinitiate any disciple of an ISKCON

guru since he does not consider them bona fide.

 

Would you kindly ask Maharaja officialy the following questions:

 

a. If he considers ISKCON gurus bona-fide,

 

b. If not, can he explain why they are not bona-fide and he is,

 

c. If he considers them bona-fide, why does he reinitiate their

disciples,

 

d. If he does not consider ISKCON gurus bona-fide (and he has

repeatedly proclaimed himself ISKCON's well-wisher), what is his proposal

for initiations in Iskcon: should we accept him as the acarya, the succesor

of Srila Prabhupada, and the only one qualified to give initiations; should

we adopt the ritvik's proposals; something else,

 

and comunicate his answers to us.

 

Again, not as a matter of chalenge but for clarification of his position. I

really know devotees who don't know what to think of him at all.

 

your servant Atmarama das

 

Ps. I really feel the nead of a moderator of this conference. I am not sure

for my letters if they should go on the air or not. If any of you is

disturbed by this, please tell me and I will substract the Katha.

[Guest guest]

We should have conference "Hot issues" with no moderator, can someone

organize it and inform us?

[Guest guest]

Dear devotees,

Please accept my humble obeisances, all glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Enough is enough. Srila prabhu is conveniently misinformed and

twisting the real facts.

 

> > My question to you: Has Narayana Maharaja reinitiated disciples of other

> gurus in good standing? If yes, don't you think that is offensive?

>

> As a matter of principle, Narayan Maharaja does not reinitiate disciples of

> bona fide gurus. However, sometimes devotees approaching him for initiation

> have not been straightforward to Maharaja and he re-initiates them without

> being properly informed. That is one problem.

 

I personally questioned HH Narayan Maharaja about his reinitiation

of 2 disciples of an ISKCON Guru just an hour or so after he

completed the reinitiation ceremony. In front of a room full of

his followers (which included an surprising number of my Godbrothers

and sisters), he said that he does not reinitiate disciples of ISKCON

Gurus. He tried to indicate that somehow he had been tricked (by

whom I was not sure- by his 2 new disciples or by his own faithful

followers?). Then he told these 2 devotees that NOW they were

actually only his siksha disciples and they should always respect

their diksha guru. This sounded good. But I dug a little deeper

into the facts after his announcement. An eyewitness told me that

these 2 devotees were actually introduced to HH Narayan Maharaja face

to face the day before the reinitiation took place and he told them

that "Oh you are xxxx's disciples, very nice!" The authorization or

statement of reason signed by these devotees to be reinitiated, I got

to personally read. It did not mention anywhere their ISKCON's guru

or problems with him . It only stated that they had "lost faith in

ISKCON" The devotee that interviewed them to "qualify for

initiation", on the morning of the reinitiation, told me directly

that he did NOT know them personally and said that some "preaching"

had to be done to one of them to convince them to surrender.

 

So this is direct evidence that HH Narayan Maharaja DOES REINITIATE

ISKCON devotees with FULL Knowledge which he conveniently denies

later as a trick. His followers also do a very strong job of

"preaching" to prepare some of the followers for the 10 minute

reinitiation job. The so-called interviewers have little knowledge

of the canidate or whether he/she is following any principles at

all. His followers' "preaching" is squarely and predominantly ISKCON

bashing as a motivator to new potential followers.

 

And HH even initiated one person, about whom it was commented, was

given his first instruction after initiation to check into a drug

re-habilitation clinic (he is known locally to be a heavy, regular

drug user).

Somehow I do not take these actions to be indicative of someone whom

Srila Prabhupada is their siksha guru. DO YOU?

 

I also find it quite improper and against Srila Prabhupada's moods,

when I see HH Narayan Mh., during Srila Prabhupada's Guru Puja,

accepting flowers offered on his feet by Prabhupada's disciples

(women and men) followed by their full dandavats to him right in

front of Srila Prabhupada's Vyasasana.

Maybe the experts in Gaudiya siddhanta can explain this? I cannot

understand the position of such a person. Nor can I believe there is

any substance to a claim to Srila Prabhupada being his siksa guru.

 

Desiring to Serve Srila Prabhupada and his true followers,

Ramiya dasa

[Guest guest]

---------- Forwarded Message ----------

 

Text COM:2662772 (63 lines)

Ramiya (das) ACBSP (Alachua, FL - USA)

29-Sep-99 00:32

(Krsna) Katha [2977]

Reference: Text COM:2648523 by WWW: Srila (Dasa) ACBSP (Berkeley CA - USA)

centennl (AT) afn (DOT) org

RE: Taking Srila Prabhupada Straight

---------------------------

Dear devotees,

Please accept my humble obeisances, all glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Enough is enough. Srila prabhu is conveniently misinformed and

twisting the real facts.

 

> > My question to you: Has Narayana Maharaja reinitiated disciples of other

> gurus in good standing? If yes, don't you think that is offensive?

>

> As a matter of principle, Narayan Maharaja does not reinitiate disciples >

of bona fide gurus. However, sometimes devotees approaching him for >

initiation have not been straightforward to Maharaja and he re-initiates >

them without being properly informed. That is one problem.

 

I personally questioned HH Narayan Maharaja about his reinitiation

of 2 disciples of an ISKCON Guru just an hour or so after he

completed the reinitiation ceremony. In front of a room full of

his followers (which included an surprising number of my Godbrothers

and sisters), he said that he does not reinitiate disciples of ISKCON

Gurus. He tried to indicate that somehow he had been tricked (by

whom I was not sure- by his 2 new disciples or by his own faithful

followers?). Then he told these 2 devotees that NOW they were

actually only his siksha disciples and they should always respect

their diksha guru.

 

This sounded good. But I dug a little deeper into the facts after his

announcement. An eyewitness told me that these 2 devotees were actually

introduced to HH Narayan Maharaja face to face the day before the

reinitiation took place and he told them that "Oh you are xxxx's disciples,

very nice!" The authorization or statement of reason signed by these

devotees to be reinitiated, I got to personally read. It did not mention

anywhere their ISKCON's guru or problems with him .

 

It only stated that they had "lost faith in

ISKCON" The devotee that interviewed them to "qualify for

initiation", on the morning of the reinitiation, told me directly

that he did NOT know them personally and said that some "preaching"

had to be done to one of them to convince them to surrender.

 

So this is direct evidence that HH Narayan Maharaja DOES REINITIATE

ISKCON devotees with FULL Knowledge which he conveniently denies

later as a trick. His followers also do a very strong job of

"preaching" to prepare some of the followers for the 10 minute

reinitiation job. The so-called interviewers have little knowledge

of the canidate or whether he/she is following any principles at

all. His followers' "preaching" is squarely and predominantly ISKCON

bashing as a motivator to new potential followers.

 

And HH even initiated one person, about whom it was commented, was

given his first instruction after initiation to check into a drug

re-habilitation clinic (he is known locally to be a heavy, regular

drug user).

Somehow I do not take these actions to be indicative of someone whom

Srila Prabhupada is their siksha guru. DO YOU?

 

I also find it quite improper and against Srila Prabhupada's moods,

when I see HH Narayan Mh., during Srila Prabhupada's Guru Puja,

accepting flowers offered on his feet by Prabhupada's disciples

(women and men) followed by their full dandavats to him right in

front of Srila Prabhupada's Vyasasana.

Maybe the experts in Gaudiya siddhanta can explain this? I cannot

understand the position of such a person. Nor can I believe there is

any substance to a claim to Srila Prabhupada being his siksa guru.

 

Desiring to Serve Srila Prabhupada and his true followers,

Ramiya dasa

--------

[Guest guest]

---------- Forwarded Message ----------

 

Text COM:2662772 (63 lines)

Ramiya (das) ACBSP (Alachua, FL - USA)

29-Sep-99 00:32

(Krsna) Katha [2977]

Reference: Text COM:2648523 by WWW: Srila (Dasa) ACBSP (Berkeley CA - USA)

centennl (AT) afn (DOT) org

RE: Taking Srila Prabhupada Straight

---------------------------

Dear devotees,

Please accept my humble obeisances, all glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Enough is enough. Srila prabhu is conveniently misinformed and

twisting the real facts.

 

> > My question to you: Has Narayana Maharaja reinitiated disciples of other

> gurus in good standing? If yes, don't you think that is offensive?

>

> As a matter of principle, Narayan Maharaja does not reinitiate disciples >

of bona fide gurus. However, sometimes devotees approaching him for >

initiation have not been straightforward to Maharaja and he re-initiates >

them without being properly informed. That is one problem.

 

I personally questioned HH Narayan Maharaja about his reinitiation

of 2 disciples of an ISKCON Guru just an hour or so after he

completed the reinitiation ceremony. In front of a room full of

his followers (which included an surprising number of my Godbrothers

and sisters), he said that he does not reinitiate disciples of ISKCON

Gurus. He tried to indicate that somehow he had been tricked (by

whom I was not sure- by his 2 new disciples or by his own faithful

followers?). Then he told these 2 devotees that NOW they were

actually only his siksha disciples and they should always respect

their diksha guru.

 

This sounded good. But I dug a little deeper into the facts after his

announcement. An eyewitness told me that these 2 devotees were actually

introduced to HH Narayan Maharaja face to face the day before the

reinitiation took place and he told them that "Oh you are xxxx's disciples,

very nice!" The authorization or statement of reason signed by these

devotees to be reinitiated, I got to personally read. It did not mention

anywhere their ISKCON's guru or problems with him .

 

It only stated that they had "lost faith in

ISKCON" The devotee that interviewed them to "qualify for

initiation", on the morning of the reinitiation, told me directly

that he did NOT know them personally and said that some "preaching"

had to be done to one of them to convince them to surrender.

 

So this is direct evidence that HH Narayan Maharaja DOES REINITIATE

ISKCON devotees with FULL Knowledge which he conveniently denies

later as a trick. His followers also do a very strong job of

"preaching" to prepare some of the followers for the 10 minute

reinitiation job. The so-called interviewers have little knowledge

of the canidate or whether he/she is following any principles at

all. His followers' "preaching" is squarely and predominantly ISKCON

bashing as a motivator to new potential followers.

 

And HH even initiated one person, about whom it was commented, was

given his first instruction after initiation to check into a drug

re-habilitation clinic (he is known locally to be a heavy, regular

drug user).

Somehow I do not take these actions to be indicative of someone whom

Srila Prabhupada is their siksha guru. DO YOU?

 

I also find it quite improper and against Srila Prabhupada's moods,

when I see HH Narayan Mh., during Srila Prabhupada's Guru Puja,

accepting flowers offered on his feet by Prabhupada's disciples

(women and men) followed by their full dandavats to him right in

front of Srila Prabhupada's Vyasasana.

Maybe the experts in Gaudiya siddhanta can explain this? I cannot

understand the position of such a person. Nor can I believe there is

any substance to a claim to Srila Prabhupada being his siksa guru.

 

Desiring to Serve Srila Prabhupada and his true followers,

Ramiya dasa

--------

[Guest guest]

> Somehow I do not take these actions to be indicative of someone whom Srila

> Prabhupada is their siksha guru. DO YOU?

 

 

Thank you Ramiya Prabhu.

[Guest guest]

On 4 Oct 1999, Mundita Mastaka wrote:

 

> Rather your understanding of my statement is incorrect. I meant to say that

> any devotional service may lead one to krsna-prema, but *only* if

> accompanied by svarupa-siddha-bhakti. Otherwise, simply working without

> thinking of Krishna is material activity whether ordered by the spiritual

> master or not.

 

No, I don't agree with this because I already mentioned that there is

ajnata-sukrti; you can perform devotional service without thinking of Krsna.

(see below)

 

> > > First you have to prove that the idea that doing cow protection in the

> > > stage of bondage is atma-nivedanam is not your speculation.

> >

> > It's not.

>

> Why not?

 

I just stated it; it's depending on your consciousness. You can think of cow

protection as devotional service in so many ways-- srvanam, kirtanam,

smaranam, atma-nivedanam, etc. Your question is foolish. The difference

between bondage and liberation is that a liberated person is surrendered to

Krsna. So it takes one moment for a person to take up the process of

atma-nivedanam and he would no longer be in bondage. If he can't fully take

to atma-nivedanam, he can still take to following the orders of the spiritual

master under the catagory of dasya or as related to sravanam or kirtanam.

 

> > The digging is a spiritual activity but the sense-gratification part is

> > not (assuming no guru-aparadhas). Please treat each separately.

> >

> > >Such kind of activity can only

> > > be spiritualized by the consciousness of the performer.

> >

> > I agree with this 100%.

>

> Now you are contradicting yourself. If the consciousness is material the

> digging

> cannot be spiritual.

 

NO, because you can perform devotional service UNKNOWINGLY- ajnata sukrti- how

many times do you want me to say it? I am not contradicting myself because the

VERY FIRST message I wrote, I said the samething that it depends on your

consciousness but there is also ajnata-sukrti. It's better to act in

consciousness of Krsna but they are both DEVOTIONAL SERVICES as long as it's

the order of the spiritual master. You still make progress whether you think

of Krsna or not! And you can achieve Krsna prema! It's only when you start

doing things never ordered by the spiritual master that you get into trouble.

You want proof:

 

"TO PLEASE HIMSELF, King Satyavrata, not knowing that the fish was the Supreme

Personality of Godhead, decided with great pleasure to give the fish

protection." (SB 8.24.15)

 

"Here is an example of giving service to the Supreme Personaliy of Godhead

even without knowledge. Such service is called ajnata-sukrti. King

Satyavrata wanted to show HIS OWN MERCY, not knowing that the fish was Lord

Visnu. By such UNKNOWING devotional service, one is FAVORED by the Supreme

Personality of Godhead. Service rendered to the Supreme Lord, KNOWINGLY OR

UNKNOWINGLY, never goes in vain." (SB 8.24.15 Purport).

 

QED.

 

ys,

 

Virender

http://www.krishnasoft.com

[Guest guest]

On 4 Oct 1999, Mundita Mastaka wrote:

 

> Rather your understanding of my statement is incorrect. I meant to say that

> any devotional service may lead one to krsna-prema, but *only* if

> accompanied by svarupa-siddha-bhakti. Otherwise, simply working without

> thinking of Krishna is material activity whether ordered by the spiritual

> master or not.

 

No, I don't agree with this because I already mentioned that there is

ajnata-sukrti; you can perform devotional service without thinking of Krsna.

(see below)

 

> > > First you have to prove that the idea that doing cow protection in the

> > > stage of bondage is atma-nivedanam is not your speculation.

> >

> > It's not.

>

> Why not?

 

I just stated it; it's depending on your consciousness. You can think of cow

protection as devotional service in so many ways-- srvanam, kirtanam,

smaranam, atma-nivedanam, etc. Your question is foolish. The difference

between bondage and liberation is that a liberated person is surrendered to

Krsna. So it takes one moment for a person to take up the process of

atma-nivedanam and he would no longer be in bondage. If he can't fully take

to atma-nivedanam, he can still take to following the orders of the spiritual

master under the catagory of dasya or as related to sravanam or kirtanam.

 

> > The digging is a spiritual activity but the sense-gratification part is

> > not (assuming no guru-aparadhas). Please treat each separately.

> >

> > >Such kind of activity can only

> > > be spiritualized by the consciousness of the performer.

> >

> > I agree with this 100%.

>

> Now you are contradicting yourself. If the consciousness is material the

> digging

> cannot be spiritual.

 

NO, because you can perform devotional service UNKNOWINGLY- ajnata sukrti- how

many times do you want me to say it? I am not contradicting myself because the

VERY FIRST message I wrote, I said the samething that it depends on your

consciousness but there is also ajnata-sukrti. It's better to act in

consciousness of Krsna but they are both DEVOTIONAL SERVICES as long as it's

the order of the spiritual master. You still make progress whether you think

of Krsna or not! And you can achieve Krsna prema! It's only when you start

doing things never ordered by the spiritual master that you get into trouble.

You want proof:

 

"TO PLEASE HIMSELF, King Satyavrata, not knowing that the fish was the Supreme

Personality of Godhead, decided with great pleasure to give the fish

protection." (SB 8.24.15)

 

"Here is an example of giving service to the Supreme Personaliy of Godhead

even without knowledge. Such service is called ajnata-sukrti. King

Satyavrata wanted to show HIS OWN MERCY, not knowing that the fish was Lord

Visnu. By such UNKNOWING devotional service, one is FAVORED by the Supreme

Personality of Godhead. Service rendered to the Supreme Lord, KNOWINGLY OR

UNKNOWINGLY, never goes in vain." (SB 8.24.15 Purport).

 

QED.

 

ys,

 

Virender

http://www.krishnasoft.com

[Guest guest]

On 04 Oct 1999, Virender Dayal wrote:

 

> of Krsna or not! And you can achieve Krsna prema!

 

SB 5.18.21 has a good purport regarding how a person even with material

desires who somehow serves Krsna, in due course of time his material desire

will vanish (i.e., the devotional service purifies him).

 

To clarify the apparent contradiction about digging a ditch under the

spiritual master's guidance: the spiritual master is spiritualizing the

activity by his Krsna consciousness, whereas the digger himself may not be in

Krsna consciousness and acting in ajnata-sukrti in carrying out the order.

 

ys,

 

Virender

http://www.krishnasoft.com

[Guest guest]

On 04 Oct 1999, Virender Dayal wrote:

 

> of Krsna or not! And you can achieve Krsna prema!

 

SB 5.18.21 has a good purport regarding how a person even with material

desires who somehow serves Krsna, in due course of time his material desire

will vanish (i.e., the devotional service purifies him).

 

To clarify the apparent contradiction about digging a ditch under the

spiritual master's guidance: the spiritual master is spiritualizing the

activity by his Krsna consciousness, whereas the digger himself may not be in

Krsna consciousness and acting in ajnata-sukrti in carrying out the order.

 

ys,

 

Virender

http://www.krishnasoft.com

[Guest guest]

> I just stated it; it's depending on your consciousness. You can think of

> cow protection as devotional service in so many ways-- srvanam, kirtanam,

> smaranam, atma-nivedanam, etc. Your question is foolish.

 

Prabhu, I don't think your argument is very wise. First you wanted to

convince me that you are a pure devotee fully controlling your mind and

senses, which I have a hard time to believe reading your comments, and now

you are insisting that ajnata-sukrti can give one pure krsna-prema, which is

a clear apasiddhanta.

 

> NO, because you can perform devotional service UNKNOWINGLY- ajnata sukrti-

> how many times do you want me to say it? I am not contradicting myself

> because the VERY FIRST message I wrote, I said the samething that it

> depends on your consciousness but there is also ajnata-sukrti. It's

> better to act in consciousness of Krsna but they are both DEVOTIONAL

> SERVICES as long as it's the order of the spiritual master. You still

> make progress whether you think of Krsna or not! And you can achieve

> Krsna prema!

 

Ridiculous! Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Krsnadas Kaviraja Gosvami say

"janma-koti-sukrtair na labhyate": you can't get pure krsna-bhakti by simply

performing sukrti, either jnata or ajnata, even for MILLIONS OF BIRTHS.

 

You can check it with CC Madhya 8.70.

 

> "Here is an example of giving service to the Supreme Personaliy of Godhead

> even without knowledge. Such service is called ajnata-sukrti. King

> Satyavrata wanted to show HIS OWN MERCY, not knowing that the fish was

> Lord Visnu. By such UNKNOWING devotional service, one is FAVORED by the

> Supreme Personality of Godhead. Service rendered to the Supreme Lord,

> KNOWINGLY OR UNKNOWINGLY, never goes in vain." (SB 8.24.15 Purport).

 

"Favored by the SPoG" and "never goes in vain" does not in any way mean

attaining pure krsna-prema. Becoming fully Krishna conscious is not such a

cheap thing that you can do it simply by working without thinking of Krishna

or chanting His name. Actually this misconception impeded the spiritual

progress of many devotees. That's why Srila Prabhupada had to say things

like this:

 

"Not that you just distribute but neglect reading them yourself. Always read

them, especially Krsna book. Every time you have a spare moment, you should

read. This will help you to advance in Krishna consciousness, and will give

you

the ability to convince others also." [Letter to Trai, 72-05-05]

 

Your servant

[Guest guest]

> I just stated it; it's depending on your consciousness. You can think of

> cow protection as devotional service in so many ways-- srvanam, kirtanam,

> smaranam, atma-nivedanam, etc. Your question is foolish.

 

Prabhu, I don't think your argument is very wise. First you wanted to

convince me that you are a pure devotee fully controlling your mind and

senses, which I have a hard time to believe reading your comments, and now

you are insisting that ajnata-sukrti can give one pure krsna-prema, which is

a clear apasiddhanta.

 

> NO, because you can perform devotional service UNKNOWINGLY- ajnata sukrti-

> how many times do you want me to say it? I am not contradicting myself

> because the VERY FIRST message I wrote, I said the samething that it

> depends on your consciousness but there is also ajnata-sukrti. It's

> better to act in consciousness of Krsna but they are both DEVOTIONAL

> SERVICES as long as it's the order of the spiritual master. You still

> make progress whether you think of Krsna or not! And you can achieve

> Krsna prema!

 

Ridiculous! Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Krsnadas Kaviraja Gosvami say

"janma-koti-sukrtair na labhyate": you can't get pure krsna-bhakti by simply

performing sukrti, either jnata or ajnata, even for MILLIONS OF BIRTHS.

 

You can check it with CC Madhya 8.70.

 

> "Here is an example of giving service to the Supreme Personaliy of Godhead

> even without knowledge. Such service is called ajnata-sukrti. King

> Satyavrata wanted to show HIS OWN MERCY, not knowing that the fish was

> Lord Visnu. By such UNKNOWING devotional service, one is FAVORED by the

> Supreme Personality of Godhead. Service rendered to the Supreme Lord,

> KNOWINGLY OR UNKNOWINGLY, never goes in vain." (SB 8.24.15 Purport).

 

"Favored by the SPoG" and "never goes in vain" does not in any way mean

attaining pure krsna-prema. Becoming fully Krishna conscious is not such a

cheap thing that you can do it simply by working without thinking of Krishna

or chanting His name. Actually this misconception impeded the spiritual

progress of many devotees. That's why Srila Prabhupada had to say things

like this:

 

"Not that you just distribute but neglect reading them yourself. Always read

them, especially Krsna book. Every time you have a spare moment, you should

read. This will help you to advance in Krishna consciousness, and will give

you

the ability to convince others also." [Letter to Trai, 72-05-05]

 

Your servant

[Guest guest]

On 5 Oct 1999, Mundita Mastaka wrote:

 

> > I just stated it; it's depending on your consciousness. You can think of

> > cow protection as devotional service in so many ways-- srvanam, kirtanam,

> > smaranam, atma-nivedanam, etc. Your question is foolish.

>

> Prabhu, I don't think your argument is very wise. First you wanted to

> convince me that you are a pure devotee fully controlling your mind and

> senses, which I have a hard time to believe reading your comments, and now

> you are insisting that ajnata-sukrti can give one pure krsna-prema, which is

> a clear apasiddhanta.

 

Wrong again. SB 5.18.21 has a good purport regarding how a person even with

material desires who somehow serves Krsna, in due course of time his material

desire will vanish (i.e., the devotional service purifies him). I did not say

that just the ajnata-sukrti will give him Krsna-prema. I said, he will

achieve Krsna-prema by such performance like the example of King Satyavrata.

King Satyavrata by his ajnata-sukrti eventually took up to pure devotional

service.

 

I never tried to convince you I was a pure devotee. Keep your speculations to

yourself. All I said was that cow protection can also be pure devotional

service and now I am telling you that even if it's not it can still be

ajnata-sukrti which helps one progress toward pure devotional service.

Srimad-Bhagavatam cannot be understood by mental speculators such as yourself:

 

 

(1) You have blasphemed the varnasrama system by claiming Bharata Maharaja

fell down because of it;

> BM is a perfect example in this regard. He decided to act according to >his

varnasrama duties ...

 

(2) you have claimed that cow protection can never lead to Krsna-prema:

>One can develop krsna-prema

> without being directly engaged in cow protection, but if one simply takes

care of cows and not hearing, chanting and remembering he won't get

> krsna-prema.

I claim cow protection can also lead to Krsna prema. EVEN IF it's

ajnata-sukrti it elevates the consciousness until one can take to it as pure

devotional service.

 

> Ridiculous! Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Krsnadas Kaviraja Gosvami say

> "janma-koti-sukrtair na labhyate": you can't get pure krsna-bhakti by simply

> performing sukrti,

 

Who said just ajnata-sukrti; ajnata-sukrti leads to pure devotional service

like King Satyavrata. Why are you defying the king of scriptures the

Srimad-Bhagavatam with its vivid example of King Satyavrata??? Do you know

better than Prabhupada who implemented the cow protection program? Did he

tell them to give up the cow protection since eventually it won't lead you to

Krsna prema??? You are here blaspheming Srila Prabhupada's implementation by

saying it was a material activity.

 

> You can check it with CC Madhya 8.70.

 

I did; it supports my statement.

 

> "Favored by the SPoG" and "never goes in vain" does not in any way mean

> attaining pure krsna-prema. Becoming fully Krishna conscious is not such

a...

 

Sorry, you misunderstood. King Satyavrata achieved Krsna's favor of pure

devotional service thanks to his ajnata-sukrti, which is also devotional

service but not pure devotional service.

 

By the way, a liberated living entity has already given his mind,

intelligence, possessions, etc. to the Supreme Lord (atma-nivedanam) so if

atma-nivedanam isn't for people in bondage then who is it for?

 

your servant,

 

Virender

http://www.krishnasoft.com

[Guest guest]

On 5 Oct 1999, Mundita Mastaka wrote:

 

> > I just stated it; it's depending on your consciousness. You can think of

> > cow protection as devotional service in so many ways-- srvanam, kirtanam,

> > smaranam, atma-nivedanam, etc. Your question is foolish.

>

> Prabhu, I don't think your argument is very wise. First you wanted to

> convince me that you are a pure devotee fully controlling your mind and

> senses, which I have a hard time to believe reading your comments, and now

> you are insisting that ajnata-sukrti can give one pure krsna-prema, which is

> a clear apasiddhanta.

 

Wrong again. SB 5.18.21 has a good purport regarding how a person even with

material desires who somehow serves Krsna, in due course of time his material

desire will vanish (i.e., the devotional service purifies him). I did not say

that just the ajnata-sukrti will give him Krsna-prema. I said, he will

achieve Krsna-prema by such performance like the example of King Satyavrata.

King Satyavrata by his ajnata-sukrti eventually took up to pure devotional

service.

 

I never tried to convince you I was a pure devotee. Keep your speculations to

yourself. All I said was that cow protection can also be pure devotional

service and now I am telling you that even if it's not it can still be

ajnata-sukrti which helps one progress toward pure devotional service.

Srimad-Bhagavatam cannot be understood by mental speculators such as yourself:

 

 

(1) You have blasphemed the varnasrama system by claiming Bharata Maharaja

fell down because of it;

> BM is a perfect example in this regard. He decided to act according to >his

varnasrama duties ...

 

(2) you have claimed that cow protection can never lead to Krsna-prema:

>One can develop krsna-prema

> without being directly engaged in cow protection, but if one simply takes

care of cows and not hearing, chanting and remembering he won't get

> krsna-prema.

I claim cow protection can also lead to Krsna prema. EVEN IF it's

ajnata-sukrti it elevates the consciousness until one can take to it as pure

devotional service.

 

> Ridiculous! Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Krsnadas Kaviraja Gosvami say

> "janma-koti-sukrtair na labhyate": you can't get pure krsna-bhakti by simply

> performing sukrti,

 

Who said just ajnata-sukrti; ajnata-sukrti leads to pure devotional service

like King Satyavrata. Why are you defying the king of scriptures the

Srimad-Bhagavatam with its vivid example of King Satyavrata??? Do you know

better than Prabhupada who implemented the cow protection program? Did he

tell them to give up the cow protection since eventually it won't lead you to

Krsna prema??? You are here blaspheming Srila Prabhupada's implementation by

saying it was a material activity.

 

> You can check it with CC Madhya 8.70.

 

I did; it supports my statement.

 

> "Favored by the SPoG" and "never goes in vain" does not in any way mean

> attaining pure krsna-prema. Becoming fully Krishna conscious is not such

a...

 

Sorry, you misunderstood. King Satyavrata achieved Krsna's favor of pure

devotional service thanks to his ajnata-sukrti, which is also devotional

service but not pure devotional service.

 

By the way, a liberated living entity has already given his mind,

intelligence, possessions, etc. to the Supreme Lord (atma-nivedanam) so if

atma-nivedanam isn't for people in bondage then who is it for?

 

your servant,

 

Virender

http://www.krishnasoft.com

[Guest guest]

On 05 Oct 1999, Virender Dayal wrote:

 

> On 5 Oct 1999, Mundita Mastaka wrote:

>

> > You can check it with CC Madhya 8.70.

>

> I did; it supports my statement.

 

Just so people know, this verse (translation and purport) in Madhya 8.70 has

no mention of ajnata-sukrti (unknowingly performing devotional service)! It

only talks about material pious acts. He's just comparing apples and oranges

and speculating that they are the same.

 

Since CC is perfectly in-line with SB, it's in line with King Satyavrata's

unknowingly doing devotional service as a SPIRITUAL activity not a material

pious act.

 

Sincerely,

 

Virender

http://www.krishnasoft.com

[Guest guest]

On 05 Oct 1999, Virender Dayal wrote:

 

> On 5 Oct 1999, Mundita Mastaka wrote:

>

> > You can check it with CC Madhya 8.70.

>

> I did; it supports my statement.

 

Just so people know, this verse (translation and purport) in Madhya 8.70 has

no mention of ajnata-sukrti (unknowingly performing devotional service)! It

only talks about material pious acts. He's just comparing apples and oranges

and speculating that they are the same.

 

Since CC is perfectly in-line with SB, it's in line with King Satyavrata's

unknowingly doing devotional service as a SPIRITUAL activity not a material

pious act.

 

Sincerely,

 

Virender

http://www.krishnasoft.com

[Guest guest]

On 05 Oct 1999, Virender Dayal wrote:

 

> Just so people know, this verse (translation and purport) in Madhya 8.70 has

> no mention of ajnata-sukrti (unknowingly performing devotional service)! It

> only talks about material pious acts.

 

I am speaking in reference to the word sukrti:

janma-koti-sukrtair-na-labhyate; CC 8.70 is also talking about devotional

service but there is no mention that sukrti (pious acts) is the same as

ajnata-sukrti (unknowing devotional service).

 

Sincerely,

 

Virender

http://www.krishnasoft.com

[Guest guest]

On 05 Oct 1999, Virender Dayal wrote:

 

> Just so people know, this verse (translation and purport) in Madhya 8.70 has

> no mention of ajnata-sukrti (unknowingly performing devotional service)! It

> only talks about material pious acts.

 

I am speaking in reference to the word sukrti:

janma-koti-sukrtair-na-labhyate; CC 8.70 is also talking about devotional

service but there is no mention that sukrti (pious acts) is the same as

ajnata-sukrti (unknowing devotional service).

 

Sincerely,

 

Virender

http://www.krishnasoft.com

[Guest guest]

Prabhuji, I'm not going to respond any more to your self-contradictory

agruments

mixed with personal attacks. Please don't bother sending me it. Thank you.

 

Your servant

[Guest guest]

Prabhuji, I'm not going to respond any more to your self-contradictory

agruments

mixed with personal attacks. Please don't bother sending me it. Thank you.

 

Your servant

[Guest guest]

>

> Since CC is perfectly in-line with SB, it's in line with King Satyavrata's

> unknowingly doing devotional service as a SPIRITUAL activity not a material

> pious act.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Virender

> http://www.krishnasoft.com

 

I seem to recall that that one of the major reasons given for widespread book

distribution was that the reciepients were considered to have done devotional

service, even if unknowingly.

[Guest guest]

>

> Since CC is perfectly in-line with SB, it's in line with King Satyavrata's

> unknowingly doing devotional service as a SPIRITUAL activity not a material

> pious act.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Virender

> http://www.krishnasoft.com

 

I seem to recall that that one of the major reasons given for widespread book

distribution was that the reciepients were considered to have done devotional

service, even if unknowingly.