Guest guest Posted September 30, 1999 Report Share Posted September 30, 1999 > Why would I want to? Of course you are free to answer or not. If one simply continues to think that he is an eternal > servant of Krsna, even without performing any other process of devotional > service, he can attain full success, Your respectful evidence is general, and by general statement you try to prove specific detail. If you continous to remember that you are eternal servant of Krsna, then you are in samadhi and liberated person within this very body. So then anything you do, does not matter, because you serve Krsna with your very mind. The point of Mundita Mustaka Prabhu was rather reffering to sadhaka, and you start from quite elevated platform. But as i mentioned in my previous comment there are two persons cases to discuss (i)pure minded devotee vaysa and(ii) mlecha-yavana who try his best. Another point is that we discuss POssibility. There are tons of verses describing activities by which there is possibility to attain full success. However another point is that anyone by lava-matra sadhu sanga CAN attain full success. And that is very nice proved by history of Ambarisha Maharaja's brother, who was one of the greatest sinner, but somehow got mercy of Narada Muni. your servant Dvarkadhis das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 1999 Report Share Posted September 30, 1999 > Why would I want to? Of course you are free to answer or not. If one simply continues to think that he is an eternal > servant of Krsna, even without performing any other process of devotional > service, he can attain full success, Your respectful evidence is general, and by general statement you try to prove specific detail. If you continous to remember that you are eternal servant of Krsna, then you are in samadhi and liberated person within this very body. So then anything you do, does not matter, because you serve Krsna with your very mind. The point of Mundita Mustaka Prabhu was rather reffering to sadhaka, and you start from quite elevated platform. But as i mentioned in my previous comment there are two persons cases to discuss (i)pure minded devotee vaysa and(ii) mlecha-yavana who try his best. Another point is that we discuss POssibility. There are tons of verses describing activities by which there is possibility to attain full success. However another point is that anyone by lava-matra sadhu sanga CAN attain full success. And that is very nice proved by history of Ambarisha Maharaja's brother, who was one of the greatest sinner, but somehow got mercy of Narada Muni. your servant Dvarkadhis das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 1999 Report Share Posted September 30, 1999 > Why would I want to? Of course you are free to answer or not. If one simply continues to think that he is an eternal > servant of Krsna, even without performing any other process of devotional > service, he can attain full success, Your respectful evidence is general, and by general statement you try to prove specific detail. If you continous to remember that you are eternal servant of Krsna, then you are in samadhi and liberated person within this very body. So then anything you do, does not matter, because you serve Krsna with your very mind. The point of Mundita Mustaka Prabhu was rather reffering to sadhaka, and you start from quite elevated platform. But as i mentioned in my previous comment there are two persons cases to discuss (i)pure minded devotee vaysa and(ii) mlecha-yavana who try his best. Another point is that we discuss POssibility. There are tons of verses describing activities by which there is possibility to attain full success. However another point is that anyone by lava-matra sadhu sanga CAN attain full success. And that is very nice proved by history of Ambarisha Maharaja's brother, who was one of the greatest sinner, but somehow got mercy of Narada Muni. your servant Dvarkadhis das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 1999 Report Share Posted October 2, 1999 > The application of your statement can also be easily misunderstood and > misapplied. Surely you will agree that a devotee could be serving a cow in > pure devotion ie. he could be thinking of Gopal. Sure, I agree. But when we are in the sadhana stage what develops our bhava is thinking of Gopal and NOT serving a cow. One can develop krsna-prema without being directly engaged in cow protection, but if one simply takes care of cows and not hearing, chanting and remembering he won't get krsna-prema. At least this is not the authoritative process. That's the difference I was thinking of. > Surely a Vaisnava wouldn't think of ONLY the cow at the time of death. > Right? Well, what about Maharaja Bharata? > Again, I agree with you, but here it seems as though you've relegated it > fairly close to useless. Not at all, Prabhu. I love cows. I was just answering to a particular point. Your servant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 1999 Report Share Posted October 2, 1999 > The application of your statement can also be easily misunderstood and > misapplied. Surely you will agree that a devotee could be serving a cow in > pure devotion ie. he could be thinking of Gopal. Sure, I agree. But when we are in the sadhana stage what develops our bhava is thinking of Gopal and NOT serving a cow. One can develop krsna-prema without being directly engaged in cow protection, but if one simply takes care of cows and not hearing, chanting and remembering he won't get krsna-prema. At least this is not the authoritative process. That's the difference I was thinking of. > Surely a Vaisnava wouldn't think of ONLY the cow at the time of death. > Right? Well, what about Maharaja Bharata? > Again, I agree with you, but here it seems as though you've relegated it > fairly close to useless. Not at all, Prabhu. I love cows. I was just answering to a particular point. Your servant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 1999 Report Share Posted October 2, 1999 On 02 Oct 1999, Mundita Mastaka wrote: > Sure, I agree. But when we are in the sadhana stage what develops our bhava > is thinking of Gopal and NOT serving a cow. One can develop krsna-prema > without being directly engaged in cow protection, but if one simply takes > care of cows and not hearing, chanting and remembering he won't get > krsna-prema. At least this is not the authoritative process. > That's the difference I was thinking of. This is pure speculation. It's your consciousness which determines where you wind up not the activity. Anta-kale ca mam eva... Cow protection is a recommended duty for certain people because of their nature. But the duty has to be performed in service to Krsna; i.e., protecting the cows so that the milk is there for the brahmanas and others so the brain is developed for spiritual culture, milk is there to make preparations for the Deity, that the cow is prevented from slaughter to let it progress evolutionary to higher stages without impediment, etc. These are all recommended devotional practices; the cow is benefited by engaging it in Krsna's service and one who does the protection is also benefitted. > > Surely a Vaisnava wouldn't think of ONLY the cow at the time of death. > > Right? > > Well, what about Maharaja Bharata? Bharata Maharaja thought of the deer unrelated to his devotional service. You can think of a pair of Karatals and go to hell in the next life if your mind is not thinking of how to use them in Krsna's service but how good you are at playing them. > Not at all, Prabhu. I love cows. I was just answering to a particular point. When you have the sastric reference then reply. Thanks, your servant, Virender http://www.krishnasoft.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 1999 Report Share Posted October 2, 1999 On 02 Oct 1999, Mundita Mastaka wrote: > Sure, I agree. But when we are in the sadhana stage what develops our bhava > is thinking of Gopal and NOT serving a cow. One can develop krsna-prema > without being directly engaged in cow protection, but if one simply takes > care of cows and not hearing, chanting and remembering he won't get > krsna-prema. At least this is not the authoritative process. > That's the difference I was thinking of. This is pure speculation. It's your consciousness which determines where you wind up not the activity. Anta-kale ca mam eva... Cow protection is a recommended duty for certain people because of their nature. But the duty has to be performed in service to Krsna; i.e., protecting the cows so that the milk is there for the brahmanas and others so the brain is developed for spiritual culture, milk is there to make preparations for the Deity, that the cow is prevented from slaughter to let it progress evolutionary to higher stages without impediment, etc. These are all recommended devotional practices; the cow is benefited by engaging it in Krsna's service and one who does the protection is also benefitted. > > Surely a Vaisnava wouldn't think of ONLY the cow at the time of death. > > Right? > > Well, what about Maharaja Bharata? Bharata Maharaja thought of the deer unrelated to his devotional service. You can think of a pair of Karatals and go to hell in the next life if your mind is not thinking of how to use them in Krsna's service but how good you are at playing them. > Not at all, Prabhu. I love cows. I was just answering to a particular point. When you have the sastric reference then reply. Thanks, your servant, Virender http://www.krishnasoft.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 1999 Report Share Posted October 3, 1999 > This is pure speculation. It's your consciousness which determines where > you wind up not the activity. Anta-kale ca mam eva... In the stage of sadhana, one's consciousness is developed by one's activity. And purification of the consciousness begins with hearing about Krishna (sravanadi suddha citte), not with simply working on the field. Is that clear or you want more quotes? > Cow protection is a recommended duty for certain people because of their > nature. But the duty has to be performed in service to Krsna; i.e., > protecting the cows so that the milk is there for the brahmanas and others > so the brain is developed for spiritual culture, milk is there to make > preparations for the Deity, that the cow is prevented from slaughter to > let it progress evolutionary to higher stages without impediment, etc. > These are all recommended devotional practices; the cow is benefited by > engaging it in Krsna's service and one who does the protection is also > benefitted. It seems to me you don't follow the original discussion. Do you really want me to explain you these basic things with plenty of quotes from BG, SB, CC and NOD? If you are already in such an elevated consciousness that you can offer all your activity to Krishna, not simply the fruit of your labor, then you don't need sadhana any more. You can do anything and always think of Krishna. But if your bhakti is mixed then you should follow the prescribed method of purification (susrusoh sraddadhanasya, srnvatam sva-kathah krsnah, etc). If you cannot do this then you can try working hard and offering the fruits of your work to Krishna (see BG 12.8-11), but this is not the path of pure bhakti. > Bharata Maharaja thought of the deer unrelated to his devotional service. > You can think of a pair of Karatals and go to hell in the next life if > your mind is not thinking of how to use them in Krsna's service but how > good you are at playing them. BM is a perfect example in this regard. He decided to act according to his varnasrama duties to protect the helpless creature, but he neglected his duties in devotional service (sravanam, kirtanam, smaranam, etc.) Therefore he fell down. He was on the bhava stage, by the way, but where we are? With all respect, prabhu, I find your objections irrelevant to the discussion. Sorry. > When you have the sastric reference then reply. Just read Ramananda Samvad in the CC. Your servant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 1999 Report Share Posted October 3, 1999 > This is pure speculation. It's your consciousness which determines where > you wind up not the activity. Anta-kale ca mam eva... In the stage of sadhana, one's consciousness is developed by one's activity. And purification of the consciousness begins with hearing about Krishna (sravanadi suddha citte), not with simply working on the field. Is that clear or you want more quotes? > Cow protection is a recommended duty for certain people because of their > nature. But the duty has to be performed in service to Krsna; i.e., > protecting the cows so that the milk is there for the brahmanas and others > so the brain is developed for spiritual culture, milk is there to make > preparations for the Deity, that the cow is prevented from slaughter to > let it progress evolutionary to higher stages without impediment, etc. > These are all recommended devotional practices; the cow is benefited by > engaging it in Krsna's service and one who does the protection is also > benefitted. It seems to me you don't follow the original discussion. Do you really want me to explain you these basic things with plenty of quotes from BG, SB, CC and NOD? If you are already in such an elevated consciousness that you can offer all your activity to Krishna, not simply the fruit of your labor, then you don't need sadhana any more. You can do anything and always think of Krishna. But if your bhakti is mixed then you should follow the prescribed method of purification (susrusoh sraddadhanasya, srnvatam sva-kathah krsnah, etc). If you cannot do this then you can try working hard and offering the fruits of your work to Krishna (see BG 12.8-11), but this is not the path of pure bhakti. > Bharata Maharaja thought of the deer unrelated to his devotional service. > You can think of a pair of Karatals and go to hell in the next life if > your mind is not thinking of how to use them in Krsna's service but how > good you are at playing them. BM is a perfect example in this regard. He decided to act according to his varnasrama duties to protect the helpless creature, but he neglected his duties in devotional service (sravanam, kirtanam, smaranam, etc.) Therefore he fell down. He was on the bhava stage, by the way, but where we are? With all respect, prabhu, I find your objections irrelevant to the discussion. Sorry. > When you have the sastric reference then reply. Just read Ramananda Samvad in the CC. Your servant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 1999 Report Share Posted October 3, 1999 > > Cow protection is not part of sadhana which is meant to develop > > krsna-prema. > > However, respecting and serving the cow is mentioned as one of the 64 > angas of uttama-bhakti by Srila Rupa Goswami in his Bhakti-rasamrta > sindhu. The tikas include circumambulating, feeding and scratching the > neck as ways to serve and respect the cow. (I really think that you've > touched on a sacred cow here, prabhu) In the Bhakti-Rasamrta-Sindhu the tenth anga of bhakti is said to be "asvattha, tulasi, dhatri, go, brahmana, vaisnava-sammanam"--offering respects to the Asvattha tree, Tulasi, the Amalaki tree, the cows, brahmanas, and Vaisnavas. In other words, one is supposed to worship cow in a similar way we worship Tulasi devi. It is said that the worship of the cow is accomplished by gently scratching her limbs, by offering her a mouthful of green grass, and by circumambulating her. That any vaisnava can do as a part of his sadhana. But we were speaking here about go raksya--cow protection as duty of vaisya, which may include building goshalas, working on the field, bulls training, etc. This is not for everyone and not what Srila Rupa Gosvami is speaking about. Again, it doesn't mean these things are useless or obstacles to the pure devotion, but they aren't in the category of pure bhakti as long as we are not pure devotees. Your servant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 1999 Report Share Posted October 3, 1999 > > Cow protection is not part of sadhana which is meant to develop > > krsna-prema. > > However, respecting and serving the cow is mentioned as one of the 64 > angas of uttama-bhakti by Srila Rupa Goswami in his Bhakti-rasamrta > sindhu. The tikas include circumambulating, feeding and scratching the > neck as ways to serve and respect the cow. (I really think that you've > touched on a sacred cow here, prabhu) In the Bhakti-Rasamrta-Sindhu the tenth anga of bhakti is said to be "asvattha, tulasi, dhatri, go, brahmana, vaisnava-sammanam"--offering respects to the Asvattha tree, Tulasi, the Amalaki tree, the cows, brahmanas, and Vaisnavas. In other words, one is supposed to worship cow in a similar way we worship Tulasi devi. It is said that the worship of the cow is accomplished by gently scratching her limbs, by offering her a mouthful of green grass, and by circumambulating her. That any vaisnava can do as a part of his sadhana. But we were speaking here about go raksya--cow protection as duty of vaisya, which may include building goshalas, working on the field, bulls training, etc. This is not for everyone and not what Srila Rupa Gosvami is speaking about. Again, it doesn't mean these things are useless or obstacles to the pure devotion, but they aren't in the category of pure bhakti as long as we are not pure devotees. Your servant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 1999 Report Share Posted October 3, 1999 On 3 Oct 1999, Mundita Mastaka wrote: > In the stage of sadhana, one's consciousness is developed by > one's activity. And purification of the consciousness begins with > hearing about Krishna (sravanadi suddha citte), not with simply > working on the field. Is that clear or you want more quotes? It's not clear. You have not given any quotes so what's the use of saying "more"? In the 9 processes, one of the items is: "Atma-nivedanam means offering Krsna everything, including one's body, mind, intelligence and whatever one may possess ." (SB 7.5.23-24) So do you think doing cow protection in service to Krsna is not in this catagory? Do you think using cows in Krsna's service is serving the cow???? > > Cow protection is a recommended duty for certain people because of their > > nature. But the duty has to be performed in service to Krsna; i.e., > It seems to me you don't follow the original discussion. Do you really want > me to > explain you these basic things with plenty of quotes from BG, SB, CC and > NOD? No, because I just quoted you the basic thing (above). You need to explain how cows engaged in Krsna's service is serving the cow instead of serving Krsna. > If you are already in such an elevated consciousness that you can offer all... Sorry, no need for elevation; if you are ordered by your spiritual master to do cow protection, it's a spiritual activity whether you do it unknowingly or knowingly. This activity elevates one's consciousness. [FYI, it's called ajnata-sukrti when done without consciously thinking it's service to Krsna.] > BM is a perfect example in this regard. He decided to act according to his > varnasrama > duties ... Sorry, he did NOT act according to his varnasrama duty. Varnasrama raises ones consciousness from his current status; he fell down thus he was NOT following varnasrama. Please don't blaspheme the varnasrama system now. > With all respect, prabhu, I find your objections irrelevant to the > discussion. Sorry. I find your reply irrelevant as well and shows a lack of understanding of the basics of bhakti. > > When you have the sastric reference then reply. > > Just read Ramananda Samvad in the CC. Okay, I will; but Bhagavatam should be enough to resolve all questions so do you have any quotes that support your speculation? your servant, Virender http://www.krishnasoft.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 1999 Report Share Posted October 3, 1999 On 3 Oct 1999, Mundita Mastaka wrote: > In the stage of sadhana, one's consciousness is developed by > one's activity. And purification of the consciousness begins with > hearing about Krishna (sravanadi suddha citte), not with simply > working on the field. Is that clear or you want more quotes? It's not clear. You have not given any quotes so what's the use of saying "more"? In the 9 processes, one of the items is: "Atma-nivedanam means offering Krsna everything, including one's body, mind, intelligence and whatever one may possess ." (SB 7.5.23-24) So do you think doing cow protection in service to Krsna is not in this catagory? Do you think using cows in Krsna's service is serving the cow???? > > Cow protection is a recommended duty for certain people because of their > > nature. But the duty has to be performed in service to Krsna; i.e., > It seems to me you don't follow the original discussion. Do you really want > me to > explain you these basic things with plenty of quotes from BG, SB, CC and > NOD? No, because I just quoted you the basic thing (above). You need to explain how cows engaged in Krsna's service is serving the cow instead of serving Krsna. > If you are already in such an elevated consciousness that you can offer all... Sorry, no need for elevation; if you are ordered by your spiritual master to do cow protection, it's a spiritual activity whether you do it unknowingly or knowingly. This activity elevates one's consciousness. [FYI, it's called ajnata-sukrti when done without consciously thinking it's service to Krsna.] > BM is a perfect example in this regard. He decided to act according to his > varnasrama > duties ... Sorry, he did NOT act according to his varnasrama duty. Varnasrama raises ones consciousness from his current status; he fell down thus he was NOT following varnasrama. Please don't blaspheme the varnasrama system now. > With all respect, prabhu, I find your objections irrelevant to the > discussion. Sorry. I find your reply irrelevant as well and shows a lack of understanding of the basics of bhakti. > > When you have the sastric reference then reply. > > Just read Ramananda Samvad in the CC. Okay, I will; but Bhagavatam should be enough to resolve all questions so do you have any quotes that support your speculation? your servant, Virender http://www.krishnasoft.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 1999 Report Share Posted October 3, 1999 On 3 Oct 1999, Mundita Mastaka wrote: ... > This is not for everyone and not what Srila Rupa Gosvami is speaking about. Of course it's not for everyone; just those to whom it is prescribed. > Again, it doesn't mean these things are useless or obstacles to the pure > devotion, but they aren't in the category of pure bhakti as long as we are > not pure devotees. This is your speculation. If Krsna tells you to do go-raksya through His bona-fide representative, and you carry out this order, it is PURE devotional service. your servant, Virender http://www.krishnasoft.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 1999 Report Share Posted October 3, 1999 On 3 Oct 1999, Mundita Mastaka wrote: ... > This is not for everyone and not what Srila Rupa Gosvami is speaking about. Of course it's not for everyone; just those to whom it is prescribed. > Again, it doesn't mean these things are useless or obstacles to the pure > devotion, but they aren't in the category of pure bhakti as long as we are > not pure devotees. This is your speculation. If Krsna tells you to do go-raksya through His bona-fide representative, and you carry out this order, it is PURE devotional service. your servant, Virender http://www.krishnasoft.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 1999 Report Share Posted October 3, 1999 > > In the stage of sadhana, one's consciousness is developed by > > one's activity. And purification of the consciousness begins with > > hearing about Krishna (sravanadi suddha citte), not with simply > > working on the field. Is that clear or you want more quotes? > > It's not clear. You have not given any quotes so what's the use of saying > "more"? Isn't 'sravanadi suddha citte' not a quote? Or maybe you overlooked it? I have plenty of other quotes saying that sadhana-bhakti begins with sravanam and kirtanam and that these are the most important processes. >In the 9 processes, one of the items is: > > "Atma-nivedanam means offering Krsna everything, including one's body, > mind, intelligence and whatever one may possess ." (SB 7.5.23-24) > > So do you think doing cow protection in service to Krsna is not in this > catagory? Do you think using cows in Krsna's service is serving the > cow???? First you have to prove that the idea that doing cow protection in the stage of bondage is atma-nivedanam is not your speculation. Anyone can say that he is atma-nivedanam like Maharaja Ambarisa, but whether he knows his atma that's the question. I heard that both sakhyam and atma-nivedanam cannot be practiced in the conditional stage. I don't have the reference on hand but maybe someone can supply it. > No, because I just quoted you the basic thing (above). You need to > explain how cows engaged in Krsna's service is serving the cow instead of > serving Krsna. If you serve only guru and Krishna and not your mind and senses then certainly all your bhakti is pure. > > If you are already in such an elevated consciousness that you can offer > all... > > Sorry, no need for elevation; if you are ordered by your spiritual master > to do cow protection, it's a spiritual activity whether you do it > unknowingly or knowingly. This activity elevates one's consciousness. > [FYI, it's called ajnata-sukrti when done without consciously thinking > it's service to Krsna.] One may be ordered by the spiritual master to dig a ditch but if he doing it and thinking of sense graticifation is this activity spiritual? Then why we need chanting and hearing at all? Just work "for Krishna" and get krsna-prema. But this is not our philosophy. Such kind of activity can only be spiritualized by the consciousness of the performer. That's why acaryas called such activity aropa-siddha-bhakti (endeavours indirectly attributed with the quality of devotion). But if you are chanting the holy name, even with offences, the activity itself is spiritual because Krishna's name is completely spiritual. Therefore it's called svarupa-siddha-bhakti. You can read about it in Bhakti-sandarbha and Bhakti-tattva-viveka. > I find your reply irrelevant as well and shows a lack of understanding of > the basics of bhakti. My understanding is certainly imperfect. Actually, I didn't want to be dragged into such kind of discussion but it happened somehow. Now I think it's time to stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 1999 Report Share Posted October 3, 1999 > > In the stage of sadhana, one's consciousness is developed by > > one's activity. And purification of the consciousness begins with > > hearing about Krishna (sravanadi suddha citte), not with simply > > working on the field. Is that clear or you want more quotes? > > It's not clear. You have not given any quotes so what's the use of saying > "more"? Isn't 'sravanadi suddha citte' not a quote? Or maybe you overlooked it? I have plenty of other quotes saying that sadhana-bhakti begins with sravanam and kirtanam and that these are the most important processes. >In the 9 processes, one of the items is: > > "Atma-nivedanam means offering Krsna everything, including one's body, > mind, intelligence and whatever one may possess ." (SB 7.5.23-24) > > So do you think doing cow protection in service to Krsna is not in this > catagory? Do you think using cows in Krsna's service is serving the > cow???? First you have to prove that the idea that doing cow protection in the stage of bondage is atma-nivedanam is not your speculation. Anyone can say that he is atma-nivedanam like Maharaja Ambarisa, but whether he knows his atma that's the question. I heard that both sakhyam and atma-nivedanam cannot be practiced in the conditional stage. I don't have the reference on hand but maybe someone can supply it. > No, because I just quoted you the basic thing (above). You need to > explain how cows engaged in Krsna's service is serving the cow instead of > serving Krsna. If you serve only guru and Krishna and not your mind and senses then certainly all your bhakti is pure. > > If you are already in such an elevated consciousness that you can offer > all... > > Sorry, no need for elevation; if you are ordered by your spiritual master > to do cow protection, it's a spiritual activity whether you do it > unknowingly or knowingly. This activity elevates one's consciousness. > [FYI, it's called ajnata-sukrti when done without consciously thinking > it's service to Krsna.] One may be ordered by the spiritual master to dig a ditch but if he doing it and thinking of sense graticifation is this activity spiritual? Then why we need chanting and hearing at all? Just work "for Krishna" and get krsna-prema. But this is not our philosophy. Such kind of activity can only be spiritualized by the consciousness of the performer. That's why acaryas called such activity aropa-siddha-bhakti (endeavours indirectly attributed with the quality of devotion). But if you are chanting the holy name, even with offences, the activity itself is spiritual because Krishna's name is completely spiritual. Therefore it's called svarupa-siddha-bhakti. You can read about it in Bhakti-sandarbha and Bhakti-tattva-viveka. > I find your reply irrelevant as well and shows a lack of understanding of > the basics of bhakti. My understanding is certainly imperfect. Actually, I didn't want to be dragged into such kind of discussion but it happened somehow. Now I think it's time to stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 1999 Report Share Posted October 3, 1999 > If Krsna tells you to do go-raksya through His > bona-fide representative, and you carry out this order, it is PURE > devotional service. Following this logic we may conclude that driving a car is also pure bhakti even if the devotee driver is completely in maya speaking prajalpa all the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 1999 Report Share Posted October 3, 1999 On 3 Oct 1999, Mundita Mastaka wrote: > > If Krsna tells you to do go-raksya through His > > bona-fide representative, and you carry out this order, it is PURE > > devotional service. > > Following this logic we may conclude that driving a car is also pure bhakti > even if the > devotee driver is completely in maya speaking prajalpa all the way. No, you don't follow the logic. He can't be completely in maya, if he's following the order of the pure devotee. If he talks prajalpa along with his driving, that is his own action which he has added to the order of the spiritual master. So pick out the bhakti from the maya. However, it remains a fact that if one executes the order without his own additions, he's acting in pure devotional service. Sincerely, Virender http://www.krishnasoft.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 1999 Report Share Posted October 3, 1999 On 3 Oct 1999, Mundita Mastaka wrote: > > If Krsna tells you to do go-raksya through His > > bona-fide representative, and you carry out this order, it is PURE > > devotional service. > > Following this logic we may conclude that driving a car is also pure bhakti > even if the > devotee driver is completely in maya speaking prajalpa all the way. No, you don't follow the logic. He can't be completely in maya, if he's following the order of the pure devotee. If he talks prajalpa along with his driving, that is his own action which he has added to the order of the spiritual master. So pick out the bhakti from the maya. However, it remains a fact that if one executes the order without his own additions, he's acting in pure devotional service. Sincerely, Virender http://www.krishnasoft.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 1999 Report Share Posted October 3, 1999 On 3 Oct 1999, Mundita Mastaka wrote: > of other quotes saying that sadhana-bhakti begins with sravanam and kirtanam > and that > these are the most important processes. I am not defying those processes. It's great if someone can dedicate himself to just sravanam and kirtanam. However, pure devotional service can also be performed with cow protection. I am just stating that your statement about "cow protection can not lead to Krsna prema" is false. > First you have to prove that the idea that doing cow protection in the stage > of bondage is atma-nivedanam is not your speculation. It's not. Actually, atma-nivedanam is one catagory it fits into; it also fits into the catagory of serving the lotus feet of Lord Krsna since the order of the guru is the order of Krsna. And since Lord Krsna is non-different from His service, by remembering His service all day and how to execute it, one is performing smaranam. > If you serve only guru and Krishna and not your mind and senses then > certainly all your bhakti is pure. Yes, thank you. > One may be ordered by the spiritual master to dig a ditch but if he doing it > and thinking of sense graticifation is this activity spiritual? The digging is a spiritual activity but the sense-gratification part is not (assuming no guru-aparadhas). Please treat each separately. >Then why we > need chanting and hearing at all? Just work "for Krishna" and get > krsna-prema. But this is not our philosophy. For some people just working for Krsna is the way to Krsna prema (of course, they can also perform sravanam, kirtanam as well). It depends on the nature of the person. Obviously a person who can wholly take to hearing and chanting need not be engaged in the field. >Such kind of activity can only > be spiritualized by the consciousness of the performer. I agree with this 100%. > with the quality of devotion). But if you are chanting the holy name, even > with offences, the activity itself is spiritual because Krishna's name is > completely spiritual... No, the consciousness of the chanter has a lot to with this chanting as well. Recall that we are not to hear the chanting of the holy name from the mayavadis (snakes) who have a poisonous influence. And also that by chanting once, one can be liberated. > kind of discussion but it happened somehow. Now I think it's time to stop. You can stop if you wish. But I just wanted to point out that cow protection can also be pure devotional service like chanting and hearing. your servant, Virender http://www.krishnasoft.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 1999 Report Share Posted October 3, 1999 On 3 Oct 1999, Mundita Mastaka wrote: > of other quotes saying that sadhana-bhakti begins with sravanam and kirtanam > and that > these are the most important processes. I am not defying those processes. It's great if someone can dedicate himself to just sravanam and kirtanam. However, pure devotional service can also be performed with cow protection. I am just stating that your statement about "cow protection can not lead to Krsna prema" is false. > First you have to prove that the idea that doing cow protection in the stage > of bondage is atma-nivedanam is not your speculation. It's not. Actually, atma-nivedanam is one catagory it fits into; it also fits into the catagory of serving the lotus feet of Lord Krsna since the order of the guru is the order of Krsna. And since Lord Krsna is non-different from His service, by remembering His service all day and how to execute it, one is performing smaranam. > If you serve only guru and Krishna and not your mind and senses then > certainly all your bhakti is pure. Yes, thank you. > One may be ordered by the spiritual master to dig a ditch but if he doing it > and thinking of sense graticifation is this activity spiritual? The digging is a spiritual activity but the sense-gratification part is not (assuming no guru-aparadhas). Please treat each separately. >Then why we > need chanting and hearing at all? Just work "for Krishna" and get > krsna-prema. But this is not our philosophy. For some people just working for Krsna is the way to Krsna prema (of course, they can also perform sravanam, kirtanam as well). It depends on the nature of the person. Obviously a person who can wholly take to hearing and chanting need not be engaged in the field. >Such kind of activity can only > be spiritualized by the consciousness of the performer. I agree with this 100%. > with the quality of devotion). But if you are chanting the holy name, even > with offences, the activity itself is spiritual because Krishna's name is > completely spiritual... No, the consciousness of the chanter has a lot to with this chanting as well. Recall that we are not to hear the chanting of the holy name from the mayavadis (snakes) who have a poisonous influence. And also that by chanting once, one can be liberated. > kind of discussion but it happened somehow. Now I think it's time to stop. You can stop if you wish. But I just wanted to point out that cow protection can also be pure devotional service like chanting and hearing. your servant, Virender http://www.krishnasoft.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 1999 Report Share Posted October 4, 1999 > I am just stating that your statement about > "cow protection can not lead to Krsna prema" is false. Rather your understanding of my statement is incorrect. I meant to say that any devotional service may lead one to krsna-prema, but *only* if accompanied by svarupa-siddha-bhakti. Otherwise, simply working without thinking of Krishna is material activity whether ordered by the spiritual master or not. Therefore the bona-fide guru never asks the disciple to simply work, but to work and think of Krishna. > > First you have to prove that the idea that doing cow protection in the > > stage of bondage is atma-nivedanam is not your speculation. > > It's not. Why not? > > One may be ordered by the spiritual master to dig a ditch but if he > > doing it and thinking of sense graticifation is this activity spiritual? > > The digging is a spiritual activity but the sense-gratification part is > not (assuming no guru-aparadhas). Please treat each separately. > > >Such kind of activity can only > > be spiritualized by the consciousness of the performer. > > I agree with this 100%. Now you are contradicting yourself. If the consciousness is material the digging cannot be spiritual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 1999 Report Share Posted October 4, 1999 > I am just stating that your statement about > "cow protection can not lead to Krsna prema" is false. Rather your understanding of my statement is incorrect. I meant to say that any devotional service may lead one to krsna-prema, but *only* if accompanied by svarupa-siddha-bhakti. Otherwise, simply working without thinking of Krishna is material activity whether ordered by the spiritual master or not. Therefore the bona-fide guru never asks the disciple to simply work, but to work and think of Krishna. > > First you have to prove that the idea that doing cow protection in the > > stage of bondage is atma-nivedanam is not your speculation. > > It's not. Why not? > > One may be ordered by the spiritual master to dig a ditch but if he > > doing it and thinking of sense graticifation is this activity spiritual? > > The digging is a spiritual activity but the sense-gratification part is > not (assuming no guru-aparadhas). Please treat each separately. > > >Such kind of activity can only > > be spiritualized by the consciousness of the performer. > > I agree with this 100%. Now you are contradicting yourself. If the consciousness is material the digging cannot be spiritual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 1999 Report Share Posted October 4, 1999 > But if you are chanting the holy name, even > with offences, the activity itself is spiritual because Krishna's name is > completely spiritual. Well, it is possible to be hearing and chanting and still be materialistic. As Srila Prabhupada warns us He clearly mentions in this verse that one must refer to the Vedic literatures and other, supplementary literatures and follow the conclusion of the Vedas. An invented devotional attitude simply creates disturbances in the transcendental realm. If a person overly addicted to family life takes to Srimad-Bhagavatam or Krsna consciousness to earn a livelihood, his activity is certainly offensive. One should not become a caste guru and sell mantras for the benefit of mundane customers, nor should one make disciples for a livelihood. All these activities are offensive. One should not make a livelihood by forming a professional band to carry out congregational chanting, nor should one perform devotional service when one is attached to mundane society, friendship and love. Nor should one be dependent on so-called social etiquette. All of this is mental speculation. None of these things can be compared to unalloyed devotional service. No one can compare unalloyed devotional service, Krsna consciousness, to mundane activities. There are many unauthorized parties pretending to belong to the Sri Caitanya cult, and some are known as aula, baula, karttabhaja, neda, daravesa, sani, sakhibheki, smarta, jata-gosani, ativadi, cudadhari and gauranga-nagari. Moreover, there are those who take the caste gosvamis' opinions of such parties as bona fide, comparing these opinions to those of the six Gosvamis, headed by Sri Rupa and Sri Sanatana. This is simply another cheating process. There are also nondevotees who compose unauthorized songs, who establish different temples for money, who worship the Deity as priests for salaries, who accept caste brahmanism as all in all, and who do not know the value of a pure Vaisnava. Actually the caste brahmanas of the smarta community are opposed to the principles of the Satvata-pancaratra. Furthermore, there are many Mayavadis and those overly addicted to material sense enjoyment. None of these can be compared to a person who is purely engaged in preaching Krsna consciousness. Every Krsna conscious person is constantly endeavoring to utilize different transcendental devices in the service of the Lord. Such a devotee renounces all material enjoyment and completely dedicates himself to the service of his spiritual master and Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He may be a perfect celibate, a restrained householder, a regulated vanaprastha or a tridandi-sannyasi in the renounced order. It doesn't matter. The pseudo transcendentalists and the pure devotees cannot be compared, nor can one argue that a person can invent his own way of worship. >>> Ref. VedaBase => Madhya 8.83 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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