THE POOR CONDITIONED SOUL...DID HE EVER SEE THE LIGHT OF VAIKUNTHA?

[Guest guest]

THE POOR CONDITIONED SOUL...DID HE EVER SEE THE LIGHT OF VAIKUNTHA?

 

Hare Krsna. Please accept my humble obeisances. I would like to look at this

topic of the soul's position in the material world and the doctrine popping up

occasionally that there is a whole genre of conditioned soul's who were

created within the material world and never were in the spiritual world at

all. There are many arguments given by many scholars why we are mistaken in

our thinking that we came from the spiritual world, such as the argument that

it is impossible for A completely liberated soul to fall under illusion.

 

This doctrine has always rubbed me the wrong way, since I was satisfied with

this simple idea passed on to us by Srila Prabhupada that once we WERE Krsna's

servants but somehow we fell down and now He is sending His confidential

servants to bring us back home. That was very reassuring and gave us great

hope and impetus to take to this devotional service and GO back home.

 

But now certain scholars are offering extensive logic and reasoning to

enlighten us to a different understanding. The soul's here couldn't have

fallen and were in fact created here, they say. I must admit that this

philosophy is depressing to me and causes confusion in the assembly of

Vaisnavas. On COM there are some even today arguing against the illogic of

thinking the soul actually came from Vaikuntha, and these scholars and

logicians are relentless.

 

Mostly, the chief proponents of this doctrine are not very inclined to

submissive hearing, but seem more to rely on their own strengths of logical

reasoning. But herein lies the problem. In the assembly of Vaisnavas, this

submissive hearing and reliance on the blessings of Krsna within the heart to

give sufficient understanding and realization are paramount. If we abandon

this humility and submissive hearing from the realized soul and take shelter

instead of our own reason and logic, we will open the door to delusion.

 

So, I would like to humbly submit the following conversation with our beloved

spiritual master concerning this question of the soul's falling from

Vaikuntha. He is asked directly whether we fall, and any submissive disciple

who is hoping to understand this question can take this opportunity to hear

from the actually authority. I offer this with great affection to my beloved

godbrothers. Mahananda dasa

 

Devotee (4): Srila Prabhupada, you say in your books so many times that

somehow or other we have fallen into this material world due to our

enviousness or our independence.

Prabhupada: Many, there are many reasons.

Devotee (4): I can't seem to get a grasp on this at all. If we in our original

constitutional position as part and parcel of Krsna, and in that position,

that original position of full knowledge and full bliss and being in our

eternal nature... Now I have some experience of how strong this material

energy is and how Maya works somewhat, but if I had known this and had this

full knowledge, then I would have had this knowledge of how Maya works and how

I might fall.

Prabhupada: You read the life of Jaya, Vijaya, Hiranyakasipu, Hiranyaksa? They

were Krsna's doorkeepers. How they fell down? Did you read it? Did you read

the life of Hiranyakasipu or Hiranyaksa?

Devotee (4): Yes, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: So how they did fall? They are from Vaikuntha. They are Krsna's

personal associates, keeping the doorkeepers. How did they fell down? Anyway,

there is chance of falling down at any moment.

Devotee (4): Well, in his family they wanted to enjoy the material world.

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, the falldown is there. So because we are

living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, therefore we may fall down

from Vaikuntha at any moment. Iccha-dvesa samutthena sarge yanti parantapa.

Find out this verse.

Pusta Krsna:

 

iccha-dvesa samutthena

dvandva-mohena bharata

sarva-bhutani sammoham

sarge yanti parantapa

 

"O scion of Bharata [Arjuna], O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are

born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate."

Prabhupada: Purport.

Pusta Krsna: "The real constitutional position of the living entity is that of

subordination to the Supreme Lord, who is pure knowledge. When one is deluded

into separation from this pure knowledge, he becomes controlled by illusory

energy and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The illusory

energy is manifested in the duality of desire and hate. Due to desire and hate

the ignorant person wants to become one with the Supreme Lord and envies Krsna

as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Pure devotees, who are not so deluded

or contaminated by desire and hate, can understand that Lord Sri Krsna appears

by His internal potencies. But those who are deluded by duality and nescience

think that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is created by material energies.

This is their misfortune. Such deluded persons symptomatically dwell in

dualities of dishonor and honor, misery and happiness, woman and man, good and

bad, pleasure and pain, etc., thinking `This is my wife, this is my house; I

am the master of this house, I am the husband of this wife.' These are the

dualities of delusion. Those who are so deluded by dualities are completely

foolish and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead."

Prabhupada: So even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that "Why shall I serve

Krsna? Why not become Krsna?" I immediately fall down. That is natural. A

servant is serving the master, sometimes he may think that "If I could become

the master." They are thinking like that, they are trying to become God. That

is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he's wrongly

thinking.

Vipina: Why doesn't Krsna protect us from that desire?

Prabhupada: He's protecting. He says, "You rascal, don't desire, surrender

unto Me." But you are rascal, you do not do this.

Vipina: Why doesn't He save me from thinking like that?

Prabhupada: That means you lose your independence.

Vipina: And no love.

Prabhupada: That is force. (indistinct) prema. In Bengali it is said "If you

catch one girl or boy, `You love me, you love me, you love me."' Is it love?

(laughter) "You love me, otherwise I will kill you." (laughter) Is that love?

So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver,

"You love me, otherwise I shall kill you." That is not love, that is

threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling, then

there is love, not by force. That is rape. The... Why one is called lover,

another is called rape?

Vipina: But isn't it by force anyway? If we don't love Krsna, we suffer.

Prabhupada: That is your business. You'll suffer. But that Krsna does not

force you. He says the real, "You love me, you'll be happy. If you don't love,

you suffer." But that is your business.

Vipina: So what is the choice?

Prabhupada: Choice is yours. If you are rascal, you don't make the choice, the

best choice. You suffer. The rascals, they suffer. And intelligent men, they

do not suffer. If you are intelligent, then Krsna says that "You surrender to

Me," you surrender, then you are intelligent. If you are rascal, then you

reject and you suffer. When a father says to his rascal son, "My dear son, you

just hear me, do like this, you'll be happy." If he does not do it, he'll

suffer. There is no other alternative.

Guest (2): Srila Prabhupada, why is the material world made on the level of a

jailhouse? It's made on the level of a jailhouse, that, I've been told, the

attitude of a jail instead of the attitude.

Prabhupada: Yes, because there will be so many criminals. Therefore government

has to construct a jailhouse. It is government's not desire. It is expensive,

unnecessary. But because there are rascals who will become criminal, the

government has jailhouse. So one who wants to remain independent of Krsna, for

them there is material world, "All right, you remain here."

Vipina: We also say that Krsna is fulfilling the desires of every living

entity. So if we want to enjoy independent of Krsna, why doesn't He let us

really enjoy independent of Him?

Prabhupada: That is not possible. That is maya it is called. You are not

enjoyer, you are servant. Because you are willing to become enjoyer, you

suffer, that's all. You are not enjoyer.

Vipina: Then He's not fulfilling the desire.

Prabhupada: No, you wanted to enjoy--enjoy at your risk. Sometimes you'll

become the king of heaven, and sometimes you become the germs in the stool.

Vipina: Hm, enjoy at your risk. (laughter)

Prabhupada: Yes. No, that is the fact.

Vipina: Instead of under His protection, you enjoy at your risk.

Prabhupada: Therefore He advises, "Rascal, you give up all this enjoying

spirit. You just surrender to Me, you'll be happy." But we don't accept it.

Therefore sometimes we are in the heavenly kingdom, sometimes as a worm in the

stool. That is going on.

 

© 1991 by Bhaktivedanta Book Trust