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>>On 22 Apr 1998, Caitanya Candrodaya wrote:

 

>> By birth and qualities everyone is shudra.

>>

 

>> used to criticize professional gurus who take shudras as the disciples

>> and who let them remain shudras. So you logic (however logical it may

>> appear) is unacceptable.

>

>

Janeshvara Prabhu wrote:

 

>Now let us hear from the Guru Maharaja:

>(quotes)

 

Of course I'm aware of the fact that shudra is a valid part of the

varnasrama society as well as daivi-varnasrama of devotees. And of course

some devotees may serve Krsna as shudras.

 

However the discussion was in the context of changing the system of

guru/initiation in ISKCON as the only way to establish varnasrama. Isn't it

something different?

 

The only thing I was saying is that to aim at guru training his disciples to

become shudras is invalid.

 

That was never an objective of Prabhupada's preaching to his disciples and

relevant quote you brought up from Mayapur verandah conversation in 1977 is

interesting to consider. Here Srila Prabhupada is saying: 'Everybody is

being raised, but they are falling down.' That is clearly not the goal but a

solution to the situation when dozens of devotees could not follow

principles of brahminical life. Same in other places like in 1974 letter to:

 

 

In the context of guru and his duties I don't find anything to support the

view that one can be trained by the ISKCON guru to remain a shudra.

 

CC. Madhya, Eight, Text 128

 

>The word

>guru is equally applicable to the vartma-pradarsaka-guru, siksa-guru

>and diksa-guru. Unless we accept the principle enunciated by Sri

>Caitanya Mahaprabhu, this Krsna consciousness movement cannot spread

>all over the world. According to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's intentions

>prthivite ache yata nagaradi-grama sarvatra pracara haibe mora nama.

>Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's cult must be preached ali over the world.

>This does not mean that people should take to His teachings and remai

>sudras or candalas. As soon as one is trained as a pure Vaisnava, he

>must be accepted as a bona fide brahmana. This is the essence...

 

Also in Allahabad:

 

>Prabhupada: Janmana jayate sudrah samskarad bhaved dvijah.

>Unfortunately there is no samskara at the present moment. So therefore they

>remain sudra. A sudra means fourth-class. So how a fourth-class man can

>speculate on the science of God?

>Guest: But sudras are not allowed to upanayana-samskara.

>Prabhupada: No. No, no, no. Now, don't take that way. One who does not take

>samskara, he is sudra, because janmana jayate sudrah. Everyone is born

>sudra. But if one does not accept the samskaras, he remains a sudra, not

>that sudras are not allowed to take samskara. Then how it is, that janmana

>jayate sudrah?

 

>Prabhupada: There are many instances. But this very word, "by birth one is

>sudra," so there is no discrimination that "You are not sudra. I am

>not...," by birth, abodha-jato, because he is born foolish rascal. Now, by

>samskara, by culture, by education, he becomes dvija, second birth. The

>practical example is these European and American students. They were doing

>all nonsense but since they have come to guru their life is reformed;

>therefore they are dvija. Samskarad bhaved dvijah,

 

When I refer to Prabhupada I had in mind this words of our spiritual master:

 

>Everything...

>topsy-turvied. Therefore the sastra says that: "Accept everyone as sudra."

>Kalau sudra sambhava. There is no more brahmana, ksatriya or vaisya. All

>sudras. We have to accept. Because no Vedic culture, no Garbhadhana

>samskara. They are born like cats and dogs. So where is this division?

>There cannot be. Therefore, accept them as sudra. Varna sankara is less

>than sudra. So at least, sudra they should be. So there is no Vaidic diksa.

>For sudra, there is no diksa, there is no initiation. (So) Initiation is

>meant for the persons who are born in brahmana family, ksatriya family, or

>vaisya family. The sudra has no initiation. So in India there are

>professional gurus. They initiate sudras, but do not eat foodstuff touched

>by the disciple. So there are so many things.. If he's initiated,

>how he can remain sudra?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Please consider that the quotes I bring are specific to the context.