Already Vaisnavas?

[Guest guest]

->should, meditate, don't be violent. I have misdirected you because I

->thought your varna was a ksatriya and your asrama was a grihasta,

 

Arjuna was on bodily platform and didn't want to fight his relatives. The

main thing (as I can see in Prabhupadas preaching) from BG is that WE SHOULD

NOT REMAIN ON THE BODILY platform, If you think that the main point of BG is

to teach Arjuna about his varna, well word varna was never applied to

Arjuna, if you want to see it that way that is your choice. But that was

just an opposite to what Krsna (and Prabhupada) asked.

 

Krsnas plan for Arjuna was to fight. Krsnas plan for us is to get KC

training and VA training first in Varnashrama Colleges and ISKCON movement.

 

->This is new to me. What is "vaidic" varnasrama as opposed to "daivi"?

 

Daivi is one that of devotees who are following the path of bhakti marga

with the rules and regulations of the path, that leads to the perfection,

not in gradual elevation through svarga etc., but the direct path.

 

But if your idea of the varnasrama is that of place where prostitutes are

part of our movement I don't want to discuss it with you or someone who

think in the similar terms and gives comments like

 

->Makes a lot of sense.

 

As far as your quotes 'supporting' your proposal - I think they are best

example of how to misuse Srila Prabhupada's quotes on the subject of social

issues. Actually nice example of how not to use his words.

 

After all of your comments it is even more clear to me that ISKCON guru

business is not to train shudras or prostitutes (because it their

consitutional position) to be or remain shudras and prositutes (even they

may be devotees).

 

It's also clear that there are quite a few ideas of what varnasrama is and

what social development is to be considered varnasrama, but not all of them

have the same clear ideas that Prabhupada has and we may mistaken his

instructions that he gave regarding how to introduce VA in countries like

Russia with the communist rule for the instructions of implementing VA in

ISKCON. As Sthita-di-muni Prabhu wrote:

 

->I agree that Prabhupada had an extremely clear idea about what he was

->teaching his followers, but I may not always be as convinced that we have

->as clear of a vision as he did. We certainly don't have his level of

->realization, nor experience.

 

No more comments in this line.

[Guest guest]

Madhava Ghosh Prabhu wrote:

 

->Third - in order to be a member of a higher varna, it is necessary to

->capable of performing the duties of the lower varna. Like filling a

->glass. First you fill the bottom, and then to the top.

 

Yes I also take it this way. For example the quailty of obedience. It

extremely important one for all varnas, sometimes Prabhupada would say it is

very important for ksatriyas to be obedient to brahmanas.

 

This can be applied to VA college structure where everyone should get

throught the course of 'Vaisnava Obedience'.

 

As was nicely quoted above by Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA)

<janesvara (AT) com (DOT) org>:

 

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, in the varna-asrama society, are most of the

citizens sudras?

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. The number of sudras is always bigger. Just like in

university education, the number of graduates and post-graduates they are

less. Other's numbers are bigger.

 

Hrdayananda Goswami: What kind of training is there for a sudra?

 

Srila Prabhupada: Sudra is general assistant, order carrier.

 

Satsvarupa Goswami: What would his business be at the varna-asrama college?

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is also training, to become obedient because

people are not obedient. What are these hippies? They are not so obedient.

So obedience also requires training. If you have no intelligence you cannot

do anything independently. Just be obedient to the other higher three

classes. That is sudra. He must agree to abide by the orders of the

brahmanas, ksatriyas and vaisyas, that's all, so that nobody will be

unemployed."

 

---------

 

By following your idea of filling the glass the contecdiction will be over.

Brahmanas should know all the subjets of varnas to teach. Ksatrias to manage

(exept purely brahminical subjects) etc.

 

However I want to stress that SP didn't say that we should teach carpenter

to become carpenter. No he should be trained to be obedient.

 

In many conversations about VA and VA colleges he sees it as an argument

AGAINST the technological education.

 

If we do the opposite to what he asked and make technological school instead

of VA college - then the result will be the opposite and the result will not

be anything close to varnasrama.

[Guest guest]

->Dear Caitanya Candrodaya prabhu,

->Who should teach the carpenter to become a carpenter? I mean, no one is a

->carpenter by birth...

 

 

Well carpenter should teach the carpenter. But if one wants to learn about

how to progress in VA or KC he should address brahmana (teacher).

 

SP 1976:

And sudras were not interested. The door is open for everyone, but the

lower class, except brahmana, ksatriya, they not interested to become

brahmacari or their parents are not interested. Just like are going to

open this brahmacari school, or asrama, but I am doubtful whether we'll

get many children. Because in this age people are interested to become

sudras. Nobody is interested to become brahmana. Technology. Technology

means sudra. Technology is not the business of a brahmana, ksatriya,

or vaisya. No. Just like blacksmith, goldsmith, carpenter, craftsman.

These are technology.

 

And July 1977 in Vrindavana (half a year after the Mayapur verandah

conversation with SDG and Hari Sauri):

 

The Englishmen used to say these men, craftand technolo..., "educated

laborer." They are laborer and little educated. There are uneducated

laborer, just like carpenter. He doesn't require any education. If he knows

how to rub on... What is called, that? That instrument? He doesn't require

to become M.A., Ph.D. All these laborers are working so nicely. So why they

should spend, waste their time in going to school and college? From the very

be... As soon as he's ten years old only, let him learn practically how to

weave cloth, how to become carpenter, how become other craftsman. And in due

course of time he can earn his... How to cultivate land... Why so many big,

big universities for inviting everyone? There is no need. Educated means

brahmana, ksatriya. Brahmana will give real knowledge, and ksatriyas will

govern. For vaisyas and sudras, there is no... It is waste of time.

 

And then, one day, he becomes very expert. He starts his

own business. That was the system.

 

---------

CCd:

 

So your perspective is of the type of training you give to the devotees and

friends that work in your factory. "And then, one day, he become very

expert" and open his own factory. Great. No need special education.

 

You may call this guru. It is correct from the point of view of grammar

(teacher).

 

But there is another definitions of guru that has nothing to do with this

material business.

 

SP 1976:

Bhaktya mam abhijanati. You come through bhakta or come through bhakti. So

bhakti means unless you become an apprentice of a bhakti how you can

attain bhakti? Therefore the bhakti-marga is instructed by Srila Rupa

Gosvami, adau gurvasrayam. If you want bhakti then you must accept bhakta

as a guru. Tasmad gurum prapadyeta jijnasuh sreya uttamam. Bhaki means

uttamam. Bhakti is not the activities of this material world. Uttamam.

Urdgata-tam . There is no material quality. Sarvopadhi vinirmuktam. That

is uttamam. Here, so long we are in the tama, tamasi ma . Don't remain in

tama, envious. Tamasi ma jyoti g ama. So bhakti is uttama. When you are

transcendental, above this darkness of material world, then you can accept

the... If you are actually interested in the uttama, something beyond

this dark, then you accept one guru.

---

 

I think I have made myslef clear on that.

 

 

ys

 

ccd