Varnasrama without KC becomes hellish

[Guest guest]

Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

>>> *BUT IT IS AN APARADA* to call someone a sudra!

It is vaisnava-aparadha. Nothing less if applied towards vasnava or a

vaisnavi. Let say someone is a ksatriya: try calling his 'sudra' - he will

express his 'appreciation'. In the same way Lord Visnu will with one who

names sudras His devotees.

 

>>

>>That is a good point. But we have to relate to the fact that this IS a

>>bit touchy in ISKCON. Those who are and have been dependants have often

>>been treated bad, and they don't always have enough faith in their

>>leaders to surrender to them.

 

To depend on authority and to be a sudra is completely different things. But

your point is very important Jatukarnya Prabhu. Yes devotees are often

reluctant to follow authorities because they feel unprotected.

 

>So we have to deal with that. We ALL have to surrender to authority but

>due to our hippy mentality, many of us are unprepared to do this. But

>when devotees are insulted, hated (maybe even cursed) for repeating

>Prabhupada's words, it is a very sad sign of our lack of faith and social

>mess.

 

Repeating Prabhupada's words is one thing. Misusing Prabhupadas words is

another.

 

>>I don't call anyone working for me a sudra, maybe most of all because it

>>has such a bad name in ISKCON...

 

In ISKCON? Do mean that outside of ISKCON, let say in Hindu movements it is

ok? Or that ritvic camp will accept it without questions, but ISKCON

devotees will not? Or GMaths? Or Siddhasvarupas people?

 

Why you say it has a bad name in ISKCON? Is is something we learned from

someone else but Srila Prabhupada?

 

As he said:

 

>One is born a sudra. Sudra means the lowest class,

>almost animal. So anyone who is born of father and mother, he is accepted

>as sudra. And... Janmana jayate sudrah. By birth, everyone is born a

>sudra, the lower class. And samskarad bhaved dvijah. And if that man, the

>boy, or the child, is reformed by education gradually, then he is,

>samskarad bhaved dvijah, his second birth is there. So amongst the higher

>class, the brahmanas, the ksatriyas, and the vaisyas, especially amongst

>the brahmanas and ksatriya, the boys were trained very nicely.

==========

 

Sdd wrote:

>We have to discuss and come to terms with the

truth and not change the philosophy or else how can we work towards

varnasrama which begins with EDUCATION?

 

Who is changing the philosophy? But to start varnasrama by labeling 90 % of

men and 100% of women as sudras in our society is a disaster.

 

>Prabhupada: No, no. Varnasrama college especially meant for the

>brahmana, ksatriya and vaisya. Those who are not fit for education, they

>are sudras. That's all. Or those who are reluctant to take

>education--sudra means. That's all. They should assist the higher class.

_____________

So who joined ISKCON and never wanted to take education?

 

ys ccd

[Guest guest]

· · · · · ·

Jd:

>On 06 Jun 1998, Madhava Gosh wrote:

>

>

>> If I say that Srila Prabhupada was a Bengali, is that an aparadha? An

>> >elderly >> man? A sannyasa? He was short? All bodily designations,

>> all of >> which describe one aspect of his life. Why would saying he was

>> a vaisya >> be an aparadha, if the others aren't?

>

>

>This shows Madhava Gosh's clear and accurate understanding of the daiva

>>varnasrama institution. It is refreshing and inviting.

 

· · · · · ·

 

As far as 'reality check' goes the principle is that our spiritual master

never called himself vaisya and never asked his (shiksa or diksa) disciples

to call his this way. I can see what mean by 'refreshing' but vaisyas called

in BG less-intelligent. Of course we can call Prabhupada 'Calcutta man' or

anything that he called himself, referring that he called himself this way.

But he never called himself a vaisya.

 

Similarly Bhaktivinoda Thakura is NOT a famous ksatriya. Gaura Kishora

babaji Maharaja is NOT a shudra etc.

 

I have no doubts that His Divine Grace Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami

Prabhupada is an uttama-adhikari. But even if you think he is kanistha he is

at least brahmana.

 

<<Prabhupada: Kanistha-adhikari means he must be a brahmana. That is

kanistha-adhikari. The spiritual life, kanistha-adhikari, means he must be a

qualified brahmana. That is kanistha. What is esteemed as very high position

in the material world, brahmana, that is kanistha-adhikari.>>

Varnasrama conversation in Mayapur, February 14, 1977

 

If one is less then kanistha he can still achieve perfection. In fact even

fallen women can get the perfection, sudras, vaisyas etc. And anyone who

chanted names of Lord Hari just ones with clear heart and love. Or even

fallen brahmanas (whom you don't like very much) can get it by chanting the

names of Narayana or Vishnu etc. But Prabhupada is uttama adhikari of a

highest grade (even in his spiritual body he may be a vaisya, but that is

outside of the subject of this conference.)

 

===============

Born a Vaisnava

===============

 

<<Vaisnava, or uttama-adhikari Vaisnava, is already considered a

brahmana, regardless of his birth or past deeds. Sri Caitanya

Mahaprabhu accepted this principle and recognized Srila Haridasa

Thakura as the acarya of the holy name, although Thakura Haridasa

appeared in a Mohammedan family. In conclusion, Srila Sukadeva Gosvami was

born a Vaisnava, and, therefore, brahminism was included in him. He did not

have to undergo any ceremonies.>>

SB Canto 1.2.2 Purport

 

=================================

One who is unable to become

a brahmana, let him become

ksatriya. If he cannot become

ksatriya, let him become a vaisya

=================================

 

<<You know George Harrison? He has earned money with so great hard labor,

and he has given us a house in London, fifty-five lakhs' worth. Another boy,

Alfred Ford, he's the great grandson of Mr. Henry Ford. He has given. He is

giving still money. He is prepared with all his money. So those who are

after money, material things, we have to induce them that "Spend for me,"

that's all, and let him earn. So far we are concerned, we shall live very

simple life, simply in Krsna consciousness. That is brahmana. Brahmana does

not go to construct big, big house. He simply constructs his character, and

the other ksatriyas and vaisyas, they offer him, "Please come here and sit

down." Therefore the division is... One who is unable to become a brahmana,

let him become ksatriya. If he cannot become ksatriya, let him become a

vaisya. Otherwise let him remain a sudra. But there should be ideal class.

So we are trying to create an ideal society of brahmanas. Then people will

be benefited. And if everyone is sudra, rascal, then what people will be

benefited? They do not know how to live. The brahmanas will give idea, "Live

like this.> >October 5, 1975

 

So please if you dont know what you are talking about, dont.

 

>Is it an aparadha to call ... Vyasadeva a brahmana grihasta? Obviously

>>not, because Srila Prabhupada is the one who desribed these personalitites

>>as such.

 

So dont do something Prabhupada didn't do. From the other hand even if he

said: "I am most rotten, fallen, but (begins to cry) I have brought this

thing for you." dont say 'oh my spiritual master said that he is fallen'

etc. Who can estimate the deep emotions of the Vaisnava when he say this

way. in other place Prabhupada said: "A Vaisnava must think like that, that

"I am rotten. I have no value." Don't be proud. Then the things will go on

nicely. And as soon as you become proud, then maya..."

 

>From the other hand there is clear indication that Prabhupada did see that

some of his disciples where unable to keep with sannyas or brahmana

principles. <<Why he should artificially become a brahmana and

sannyasi and fall down? This has to be checked.>> Mayapur 14 feb 77. So let

build the system where everyone is invited and can be gradually elevated and

educated.

 

Caitanya caritamrita:

 

<<The ceremony performed to initiate a disciple into the study of spiritual

science is called upaniti, or the function that brings one nearer to the

spiritual master. One who cannot be brought nearer to a spiritual master

cannot have a sacred thread, and thus he is indicated to be a sudra. The

sacred thread on the body of a brahmana, ksatriya or vaisya is a symbol of

initiation by the spiritual master; >>

 

But I think you will not imply that Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati has given him

'vaisya' initiation (and said to preach in English speaking world)?

 

I can understand that vaisya wants to see his guru as vasiya. And manager

wants to see his guru as a manager etc. But Prabhupada never told us that we

should address him "vaisya". Sorry folks.

 

 

Your servant,

 

Caitanya candrodaya dasa

 

******************************

[Guest guest]

Srila Prabhu wrote:

> If the aforementioned VAD hardliners don't

>understand what an *aparadha* is then I would suggest they've been

>breathing barn fumes for too long and they should instead read some

>bracing quotes against sadhu-ninda. (why should they read anything that is

-> not 'varnasrama quotes')

 

I find it sometimes that 'hardliners' as you call them may do more harm in

establishing varnasrama then even people who are opposed to varnasrama

principles. So something that advocate VA may have an adverce effect. What

happens when premature or simplified understanding of application of VA is

pushed forward? Seriouse doubt may arrise if it is exactly what Srila

Prabhupada wanted. And if the faults of the appication of the VA will become

evident we may loose the baby with the dirty water. And it will be sad.

Prabhupada had VA focus all the time he was building ISKCON. All his

innovations are VA implementations, but oriented on KC. He never did

something that was not pure KC, however practical and down-to-earth it may

appear. That is the essence of Prabhupadas VA application.

 

So dillema is stil there: rules and traditional concepts VA vs practical

application of VA that supports the actual goal of KC and nothing else.

YS CCD

------

Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.1.24

 

Sometimes we are criticized because although I am a sannyasi, I

have taken part in the marriage ceremonies of my disciples. It must be

explained, however, that since we have started a Krsna conscious

society and since a human society must also have ideal marriages, to

correctly establish an ideal society we must take part in marrying some

of its members, although we have taken to the path of renunciation.

This may be astonishing to persons who are not very interested in

establishing daiva-varnasrama, the transcendental system of four social

orders and four spiritual orders. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati

Thakura. however. wanted to reestablish daiva-varnasrama.