Everybody is born sudra. No one has to remain... Meateater.

[Guest guest]

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>> >>Durga puja, Candi puja. That means restriction.

>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Vaisnava?

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>What are you trying to say Prabhu?

 

The only thing I want to say that it is against the basic principles of

Gaudia-Vaisnavas to eat meat offered to Devi. When Prabhupada was talking

about restrictions he was explaining how to expand varnasrama and yes for

everyone. But it is not that Vaisnava-sudra (as crazy as it sounds, it

should be "Vaisnava born as sudra", or "sudra by occupation") will take part

in DURGA-PUJA by eating meat. Are you serious?

 

Yes there are quite a few references to Prabhupada and other acaryas that

show how people who where born into certain varna where behaving the way was

normal for that varna in that time. However to reverse this and say that now

ISKCON devotees should apply the regulations that WHERE normal to the

present day and just because one is driver or a musician he should be put in

the category of meat eater is ABSOLUTELY WRONG.

 

When Prabhupada was giving this particular example he was giving an example

of restriction and how it should be used if one wants to establish VA in the

society at large and he never EVER applied it in ISKCON, society of

vaisnava-devotees of the Lord.

 

>"There was a tailor who was a meat-eater but was sewing garments for Srivas

Thakur. The Lord, being merciful to him, showed him His own form." CC Adi

17.23

 

Sorry it just means yavana. Yes it is not a disqualification to be born as a

meat eater, especially if meateating is part of your religion as it is case

with Muslims. But it doesn't mean that if someone is put in sudra category

by some temple president in Sweden he should behave as a Muslim. Or if one

didn't pass a test or a devotee went to the VA College on sudra or manager

faculty that doesn't mean that one will get in the meat-eater category.

 

One thing is to set an example of fully working varnasrama system in society

of devotees other is to restore the varnasrama in the society at large (you

may see no difference, but I do). VA colleges can be for any of the above

reasons. In both cases karma-kanda is subordinate to bhakti, but ones one is

already on the path of bhakti he doesn't have to change principles of ones

life but add the parts of Karma-kanda that are not contradictory to the

bhakti.

 

I find it is interesting to read the Room Conversation about Harijanas,

where Srila Prabhupada said: "Just explain that if you infect cholera

disease, germ, you must suffer. That is nature's law. Similarly, karanam

guna-sangah asya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu. Now you can change the karana, the

cause. Mam hi partha vyapasritya ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah. And you can

neutralize it. Mam ca avyabhicarena bhakti-yogena yah. ">> This is an

example of his approach in establishing VA in the society at large. And in

this conversation (that is after Feb 1977) he is referring to ISKCON as

teachers of bhakti marga. <<...position of associate of Hari. That has to be

done. Then it will be first class. That we can do. Nobody can do.>> <<Now we

can give them the light.>>

 

However it is interesting to note that in this conversation our Spiritual

Master has said : << Gandhi has degraded the name of harijana to such a

position that if somebody comes and if he says "I am harijana," immediately

we shall hate him. Because we know there is camar bhangi, he has changed the

name, "harijana." One who has been elevated to the position of associate of

Hari. That has to be done. Then it will be first class. That we can do.

Nobody can do. Jana means person. Hari means the Lord. A government man.

Hari's man. Like Narada.>> Tamala Krsna: <<Narada Muni is a harijana.>>

Prabhupada: <<Yes. All devotees.>>

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Room Conversation about Harijanas

Bombay, April 10, 1977

 

 

Tamala Krsna: You want us to write a letter to the editor?

Prabhupada: Not editor. The person who is the leader. Means the harijana

movement. They are feeling frustration. Now we can give them the light.

 

Bhakti-caru: Actually it was written by one professor, K.H.A. Parthan.

 

Prabhupada: So write to him. On the basis of

 

mam hi partha vyapasritya

ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah

striyo vaisyas tatha sudras

te 'pi yanti param gatim

 

"According to Bhagavad-gita, we can lead you and make your life successful."

 

Tamala Krsna: One problem I see... Of course, I haven't read the article in

any detail, but generally they very much oppose--of course, unrightly

so--they very much oppose the delineation of "sudra." They are sudras, these

harijanas. But...

 

Prabhupada: But it doesn't matter. We shall elevate them to go back to home,

back to Godhead. Whatever he may be. Striyo vaisyas tatha sudrah. Kim punar

brahmanah punya bhakta rajarsayah. Simply by denying that "I am not sudra,"

that will not help. But they must be elevated to the standard of brahmana.

That we will talk later on. But we have to convince that "This world

movement is going on to make the human society to the highest perfection of

life. If you join, we can help you." To the perfection of life. On the basis

of Bhagavad-gita. There is no difficulty. That we can do. If you really

want, there is a...

 

Bhakti-caru: But the thing is Dr. Amritsar is dead now. He was the leader of

the harijanas.

 

Prabhupada: Whoever may be, but they could not do anything. Neither they can

do. They do not know how to elevate them. We know that. We can help. And we

are actually doing it. The idea is they are feeling frustration for want of

leader. We are prepared to guide them. To the highest perfection of life.

(pause) The defect was Gandhi started this harijana movement, keeping them

where they are, and at the same time, changing by rubber-stamp, "harijana."

That must be failure.

--

Prabhupada: Now harijana, he has..., Gandhi has degraded the name of

harijana to such a position that if somebody comes and if he says, "I am

harijana," immediately we shall hate him.

 

Tamala Krsna: We hate him.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Because we know there is camar bhangi, he has changed the

name, "harijana."

--

Prabhupada: One who has been elevated to the position of associate of Hari.

That has to be done. Then it will be first class. That we can do. Nobody can

do.

 

Tamala Krsna: What is the translation for the word jana?

Prabhupada: Jana means person. Hari means the Lord. A government man. Hari's

man. Like Narada.

Tamala Krsna: Narada Muni is a harijana.

Prabhupada: Yes. All devotees.

 

Tamala Krsna: Yeah. He is well known. (break) (reading:) "The only remedy

lies in the ending of their subservience to the higher castes and securing

for them economic independence. But according to the Bhagavatam, a sudra can

never be given economic independence. If they want economic independence,

they should elevate themselves to the higher castes."

 

Prabhupada: It will not become higher caste. They do not know. Economic

independence, who is checking now? There is no such check all over the

world. Just like in Bombay. Everyone can do business. So why they cannot do?

 

Tamala Krsna: Because they are not intelligent enough.

 

Prabhupada: That means they have no intelligence.

 

Tamala Krsna: That means they are sudra. And if someone is a sudra, how can

you let him have his own money?

 

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, everything requires intelligence. If you

haven't got that standard of intelligence, how you can do it? Nowadays,

suppose if you do some business, is there a hindrance that "You are low

class, you cannot do this business." Neither the government nor the society.

You can do it. Why you cannot do it? Just like in Bengal, the Marwaris are

rich and Bengalis are... It is your incapability. Why don't you admit that?

 

Tamala Krsna: Look at this question, Srila Prabhupada. It says "Who are

these harijanas? What is their origin? What sins did they commit?"

 

Prabhupada: Then you answer that.

 

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, we can answer these questions. Yes, they did commit

sins. Therefore they are in this position.

 

Prabhupada: Don't say... Harijana means the person associated with God.

 

Tamala Krsna: But these men are... I mean their position... Everyone is

getting what he deserves. So if they are in a downtrodden...

 

Prabhupada: Yes. That is prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani.

Sad-asad-janma-yonisu. Karanam guna-sango 'sya. This is the science.

 

Tamala Krsna: Yes. If they are in a downtrodden condition, it's due to their

past activities.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Now you can rectify it.

 

Tamala Krsna: Right, it can be reversed.

 

Prabhupada: It is not that you shall remain... Then, mam hi partha

vyapasritya ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah. If you accept Krsna consciousness,

even you are born in low-grade caste or family, you can be elevated. That is

to be done. What is done is done. Now we can elevate from this position.

That is our capacity.

 

Tamala Krsna: Says, "They desire freedom from the age-old shackles of

superstition..."

 

Prabhupada: Where is the shackle? Age-old shackles. Where is the shackle?

 

Tamala Krsna: There is nothing keeping them down but their own inability.

Prabhupada: You are keeping yourself in shackle. If you want to be educated,

there was... Dr. Ambedekhar, he belonged to the harijana. How he became a

law member? Where is the shackle?

 

Prabhupada: Where is the shackle?