Guest guest Posted June 4, 1998 Report Share Posted June 4, 1998 >>important than any other *class*. Just different in purpose. > >An intelligent person does not ignore his legs and feet thinking, you are >>so low and I don't want to be involved with you or have anything to do >>with you. > >If a person does not take care of their feet they will surely be in >trouble. Feet are very important if you want to go anywhere. Of course sudras are needed. Of course feet are important and each part of the whole body of the society is as important as the other. However for a devotee who wants to dedicate his life to the preaching of the Holy Name of the Lord in Prabhupada's movement and following his footsteps and the footsteps of the liberated acaryas it is wrong to think that he should remain shudra. Not only that, but to consider the devotee to be a sudra is an apparadha. Even if one is so fallen that he remans a sudra he should be given all the facilities to raise to the higher position in the regulations of bhakti, cleanleness, education etc., Of course sudras are needed, there are plenty sudras in the world. Also devotees can play the role of a sudras or do sudras work, but PLEASE 'never think that he is a sudra'. ys ccd ------------ Room Conversation Mayapur, February 14, 1977 ============================= 'SMALL SCALE' and 'BIG SCALE' ============================= Prabhupada: Everywhere, wherever, Mayapura or anywhere. Question is that here it is clearly said, sve sve karmany abhiratah. Brahmana has his duty, ksatriya has his duty, vaisya has his duty, sudra has his duty. And if he performs his duty nicely, then he also becomes perfect. So why artificially he should be called a brahmana? Let them do, according to sastra, the work of sudra, or vaisya. He'll get the perfect. Perfection is not checked. But why artificially he should be made a brahmana or he should be made a sannyasi and fall down and become a ludicrous? That is the point. Better let him live in his position and become perfect. That's good. That looks very nice. And that is possible. That is possible. Varnasramacaravata purusena parah puman visnur aradhyate. Visnu, Lord Visnu, can be worshiped if you perfectly follow the rules and regulation of four varnas and four asramas. Here it is also said, sve sve karmani. You work as a perfect brahmana or a perfect ksatriya, perfect sudra; you get perfection. The perfection is available in your natural life. Why should artificially you become unnatural and fall down and become ludicrous? Perfection is not checked. Satsvarupa: But in most of our temples, the duties are either Deity worship, brahmana... Prabhupada: Brahmanas are available. Why you are bothering about this? Brahmanas are also available, sudras are also available. Why sudra should be artificially become a brahmana? Satsvarupa: What will the sudras do in the big city temple, in all the temples? Prabhupada: Why you are bringing our temples? I am talking of the principle. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Satsvarupa: Oh. Hari-sauri: The principle we follow. We're just thinking how it can be implemented. You were saying that it should be started in our society. Prabhupada: Yes, that is a very broad idea. Now we are speaking of some of them, training them. That is another thing. That is small scale. Hari-sauri: The principle we're following. Prabhupada: Yes. In the... FOR THE BIG SCALE, THIS IS THE REQUIRED. In big scale you cannot make all of them as brahmanas or sannyasis. No. That is not possible. THIS IS A SMALL SCALE. How many percentage of people of the world we are controlling? Very insignificant. But if you want to make the whole human society perfect, then this Krsna consciousness movement should be introduced according to the Krsna's instruction, if you want to do it in a large scale for the benefit of the whole human society. NOW WE ARE PICKING UP SOME OF THEM, BEST. That is another thing. But Caitanya Mahaprabhu said para-upakara. Why a certain section should be picked up? The whole mass of people will get the benefit of it. Then it is required, systematic. Sve sve karmany abhiratah samsiddhim labhate narah. Para-upakara means mass benefit, not there is certain section. Then we have to introduce this varnasrama-dharma. It must be done perfectly, and it is possible and people will be happy. =================================================================== EVERY PART IS IMPORTANT. 'WHAT ABOUT THE HEAD? WHAT ABOUT THE ARMS?' =================================================================== Just like the body. Head is important; the arm is important; the belly is important. They must be kept in order. Just like I am in trouble because my belly is not working. Digesting power is not good. So in spite of brain, hand, and leg, I am diseased. If an part of the society remains diseased, the whole society will suffer. Therefore they must be maintained in correct order. You cannot say if there is some trouble in the leg, "Neglect the leg. Take care of the brain." No. Brain will be taxed due to the pain in the leg. This is nature. Therefore everyone should be kept in order. Then things will g on. That is varnasrama. They do not know that. Sometimes they are giving stress... That communist is giving stress to the sudra class, and the capitalist are giving to the belly class. And what about the head? What about the arms? And therefore topsy-turvied. ============================== WE ARE NOT GOING TO BE A SUDRA ============================== Satsvarupa: But the people are not at our disposal to organize. Hari-sauri: We are thinking of "we" because actually we only have our own society at the moment to organize. Satsvarupa: We cannot approach the masses to organize. Hari-sauri: It can't be implemented on such a big scale. Prabhupada: I do not follow what you say. Satsvarupa: Just like... Prabhupada: Ideal. We are giving the ideal. Satsvarupa: But no one's listening and no one's taking it up except a few... Prabhupada: But you take. You show them. Hari-sauri: That's why we say, "we." Prabhupada: That "We said" means not we are going to take them, but we are simply giving the ideas. We are not going to be a sudra. But to show the... Just like you play in a drama. You are playing the part of a king. You are not a king. ========================== 'NO. NO. NO. I DON'T WANT' ========================== Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, "Srila Prabhupada wants some to be sudra..." Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don't want. I want everyone to become Vaisnava. But because he's a sudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brahmana, or Vaisnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system must be. But even if he remains a sudra, he's a Vaisnava. Hari-sauri: So we'd have to completely revise the whole system that we have now. Prabhupada: No. Whatever we have, that is all right. But we see by experience that they're falling down. ============================== SUDRA CANNOT GET THAT POSITION ============================== Bhubaneswar, January 23, 1977 Vaisyas also. Sudras also. Satsvarupa: You were saying that last night in your talk. Prabhupada: Yes. Everyone is required. But he must be a Vaisnava. That's all. Actually none of us belong to any group. They are servant of Krsna, and for Krsna's sake he can act as a brahmana, as a ksatriya, as a vaisya or a sudra. It doesn't matter. It is all Krsna's service. Just like he is giving massage. That does not mean he's a sudra. This is actual sudra's business, servant. But he's not a sudra. Similarly, we can act for Krsna in any position. We do not belong to this material occupation or platform. Sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate. This is to be dwelled on. He's above all this nonsense. Brahma-bhuyaya means liberated. Jivan-mukta sa ucyate.... he may act in this life as a ksatriya, brahmana, sudra. It doesn't matter. But he's liberated. He's not going to take birth again. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti. A sudra cannot get that position. So try to understand our philosophy thoroughly and distribute it. ================================ FOR SUDRA THERE IS NO INITIATION ================================ Sastra says that: "Accept everyone as sudra." Kalau sudra sambhava. There is no more brahmana, ksatriya or vaisya. All sudras. We have to accept. Because no Vedic culture, no Garbhadhana samskara. They are born like cats and dogs. So where is this division? There cannot be. Therefore, accept them as sudra. Varna sankara is less than sudra. So at least, sudra they should be. So there is no Vaidic diksa. For sudra, there is no diksa, there is no initiation. Initiation is meant for the persons who are born in brahmana family, ksatriya family, or vaisya family. The sudra has no initiation. So in India there are professional gurus. They initiate sudras, but do not eat foodstuff touched by the disciple. So there are so many things, that ... if he's initiated, how he can remain sudra? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Sritatva by Bhaktivinoda Thakura Sutra 44 Neophyte, materialistic devotees should follow varnasrama-dharma, but advanced devotees, who are situated on the spiritual platform and are free from the grip of the modes of material nature have no use for varnasrama-dharma. This pure devotional service is described by the Lord in these words (Bhagavad-gita 7.19 and 7.17): "He who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me."* "Of these, the wise one who is in full knowledge in union with Me through pure devotional service is the best."* In Srimad Bhagavatam (11.18.28) the Supreme Personality of Godhead declares: "A learned transcendentalist dedicated to the cultivation of knowledge and thus detached from external objects, or My devotee who is detached even from desire for liberation, both neglect those duties based on external rituals or paraphernalia. Thus their conduct is beyond the range of rules and regulations."* In Bhagavad-gita (18.66) the Supreme Personality of Godhead declares: "Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear."* === Manu explains: "A brahmana should: 1. study, 2. teach, 3. worship the Lord, 4. convince others to worship the Lord, 5. give charity, and 6. accept charity. "A ksatriya should: 1. protect the citizens, 2. give charity, 3. worship the Lord, 4. study scripture, and 5 not become attached to material sense-objects. "A vaisya should: 1. protect cows, 2. give charity, 3. worship the Lord, 4. study scripture, 5. engage in banking and commerce, and 6. engage in farming. "A sudra has one duty: without envy he should faithfully serve the other varnas. ======== In the Vedanta-sutra (1.3.34) it is said: "Because he approached impelled by unhappiness from hearing an insult, the word 'sudra' here means 'unhappy'." This sutra is explained by the passage that begins with these words of Chandogya Upanisad (4.1.1): "There was a man named Janasrutir Pautrayana...." The following explanation is seen in a sutra of Vyasa (Vedanta-sutra 1.3.35): "That he is a ksatriya is understood from the clue related by the caitraratha." In other sutras (Vedanta-sutra 1.3.36-37) it is said: "This is also so because the scriptures state both the necessity of undergoing the samskaras (rituals of purification) and the exclusion of the sudras from these rituals."* "This is so because care is taken to determine that a student is not a sudra." ========================= SUDRA CANNOT BE A TEACHER ========================= Prabhupada's Lectures Srimad-Bhagavatam 1973 Paricaryatmakam karyam sudra-karma svabhava-jam. And those who are neither brahmana... They have no brain to become brahmana or to become ksatriya or vaisya, they are called sudras. And sudra's business is to serve the other upper three classes, laborer, worker classes, and satisfied with some service.... here it is said that tatah pariksid dvija-varya-siksaya: ``He was educated and trained up by the best class of the brahmanas,'' not by the sudras. Sudra's training, what he can become? He can become a rascal, that's all. The training was entrusted to the first-class brahmana, who is himself trained up to speak truth, satya sama dama, to remain clean, to become very simple in habit, to become master of knowledge, and practical application. Such person should be the trainer, should be the teacher. Not a third-class rascal becomes a teacher and professor. ======================= VAISNAVA IS NEVER SUDRA ======================= Madhya-lila: 8, Text 128 One who is actually advanced in spiritual knowledge of Krsna is never a sudra, even though he may have been born in a sudra family. Prabhupada's Lectures Nov 18, 1968 Of course, a Vaisnava is never sudra, but in social standard they belonged to the ksatriya or sudra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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