Please don't discuss the guru issue in the Varnasrama conference

[Guest guest]

On 19 Aug 1998, Jatukarnya das wrote:

 

> > Always keep the Varnasrama goal in your mind, and keep the discussions

> > about Gurus related to Varnasrama. That will automatically exclude

> > discussions about actions done by the current gurus, since we currently do

> > not have a Varnasrama society.

 

 

Thank you for your proper management of this auspicious conference. I hope it

doesn't stifle the enthusiasm to keep the discussions going. It shouldn't.

 

It is my humble opinion that we need not discuss the

qualifications/disqualifications of those people who currently have the title

"guru" living now anywhere in the world in order to discuss the practical

plans of implementing VAD in our communities. Those discussions can, and

should, take place in other conferences. They are very important issues as

well.

 

We have the good fortune that Srila Prabhupada left us his Books and other

compiled teachings which tell us everything we need to know, right now, about

how to start the process of dividing our society into the four orders and

statuses of social and spiritual life. He is, in the opinion of most learned

devotees, scholars and Vedic cultural academicians, a pure devotee of the

Lord, a pure Vaisnava, a mahabhagavata and a paramahamsa. This should be

sufficient for our needs I think!

 

As we map out the roads to future practicable implementation of VAD

principles, Vedic culture and lifestyles and devotional service to the Lord,

we will very likely simultaneously develop a keen understanding of the true

qualifications necessary for fulfilling titles such as sannyasa, brahmana,

guru, etc.

 

Let's maintain what Srila Prabhupada gave us in its purest form, the Books,

and move forward with confidence and enthusiasm that what he told us will

rectify all of our other troubles. VAD is truly the medicine for what ails us.

 

 

 

> If it is obvious that a discussion related to Gurus in a Varnasrama society

> is not motivated in finding faults with the present Gurus, I think it could

> be quite a nice discussion.

 

 

I agree. I think we can talk about the roles of the gurus of Vedic times like

Drona, Bhisma, Narada, Sandipani, Dhaumya, Gargamuni, etc., and their

important roles in teaching the principles of VAD to the citizens. We need not

stray to any questionable situation of present day affairs in this conference

because we know that we definitely have the pure guidance of Srila Prabhupada

for our needs. If there are other people teaching VAD in accordance with Srila

Prabhupada's teachings they can be accepted as siksa gurus - this is certainly

Vedic and will continue eternally.

 

yfs,

jd

[Guest guest]

>

>

> I agree. I think we can talk about the roles of the gurus of Vedic

> times like

> Drona, Bhisma, Narada, Sandipani, Dhaumya, Gargamuni, etc., and their

> important roles in teaching the principles of VAD to the citizens. We

> need not

> stray to any questionable situation of present day affairs in this

> conference

> because we know that we definitely have the pure guidance of Srila

> Prabhupada

> for our needs. If there are other people teaching VAD in accordance

> with Srila

> Prabhupada's teachings they can be accepted as siksa gurus - this is

> certainly

> Vedic and will continue eternally.

 

One little problem. Gurus in Vedic times lived in a mature VAD culture

in Dwarpara uga. We live in ugrakarmic cultures , while trying to

establish VAD. While I certainly agree that discussions of current

events that are still unfolding and unresolved can easily get off

track, I do think that the zone of historical study should include

recent as well as distant history. To think about establishing VAD, and

not to be able to benefit from the mistakes of someone like Bhaktipada

is to artificially handicap us.

 

I know to many people, they simply categoize him as evil or "off" and

therefore don't take the time to analyse what really happened, but,

trust me, it's not that simple. He was the first devotee who actually

moved into the temple, he was the first devotee Srila Prabhupada gave

sannyasa to, and he was the first devotee to protect cows, all pretty

pivotal events in the establishment of VAD.

 

At present, his fanatic disciples that may have been a physical threat

are no longer an issue, and all his disciples (except a tiny minoruty)

have made healthy adjustments in their relationship with him, so it is

not an ongoing and developing situation with all kinds of delicate

interactions. It is historical, and highly useful

 

Another example would be of the Dallas and Vrindaban gurukulas. I think

we do need to consider those events in any theorizing or decision making

we do.

 

>

>

> yfs,

> jd

[Guest guest]

>

> One little problem. Gurus in Vedic times lived in a mature VAD culture

> in Dwarpara uga. We live in ugrakarmic cultures , while trying to

> establish VAD. While I certainly agree that discussions of current

> events that are still unfolding and unresolved can easily get off

> track, I do think that the zone of historical study should include

> recent as well as distant history. To think about establishing VAD, and not

to be able to benefit from the mistakes of someone like Bhaktipada is to

artificially handicap us.

>

>

 

 

I don't want to start dragging things to a place we don't want to go, but a

more ordinary difference between Srila Prabhupada and his disciples attempting

the service of diksa guru, is that Srila Prabhupada went throught the entire

course of the ashramas. Further, he didn't present himself as a 'super guru'

until he was well into his seventies. In comparison, his followers found

themselves offering diska while still in their thirties (sometimes, I believe,

even their late twenties.) The standard they found themselves attempting to

follow was Srila Prabhupada's example as a world acarya, mostly because that

was all they knew. But another reason might be is that the other devotees

(their god-brothers included) expected such behaviour in order to feel

reassured everything was still bona-fide. After all, that was all they knew as

well, and people were looking for ways to fill the feeling of Srila

Prabhupada's absence in their individual lives, and as leader of the movement.

It was Prabhupada who said imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

 

I am only bringing this up in order to suggest that a more mature culture of

devotional service, which obviously includes VAD, would create an enviroment

much more friendly to devotees who find themselves in a position to give

shelter to others. Unfortunately, such things often take time, and sometimes

painful experiences, in order to reach a balanced standard.

 

I hope this is not too far out of line. I do believe dealing with our current

situation, whatever it may be, is always an important part of our Krsna

consciousness.