Guest guest Posted January 3, 1999 Report Share Posted January 3, 1999 On Sat, 2 Jan 1999, COM: Jatukarnya (das) HKS (Cintamani Intl, Oslo - N) wrote: > > HKDD comments: > > > > Not to me. If Srila Prabhupada didn't give it to us directly, I think it > > might be dangerous for us to even touch it. As regards vaisyas, Srila > > Prabhupada recommended that they should pay 25% of their produce (not > > profits) to the ksatriya. > > > Regarding the 25 % of their entire produce, are you sure about this? I seem > to remember that we discussed this earlier, and that we agreed that it was > 25 % of the profit. Otherwise, it would be very hard to make profit. I think > it would bankrupt almost any business nowadays to have to pay 25 % of its > produce to the king or state. > > Ys > Jkd ====================================== Hare Krsna dasi responds: Well, from all the quotes that I have read, it seems pretty clear that Srila Prabhupada is talking about 25% of total production, not 25% of the profit. The very, very important point that is almost impossible for us to grasp is that Srila Prabhupada is talking about this taking place in the varnasrama society that he envisions, which is a subsistence-oriented society, not a market-oriented society. This kind of tax is not at all possible in our current market-oriented society. Say a farmer has a 400 acre grain farm. If he had to give all the production of 100 acres as taxes, he would have to go out of business. How would he pay the shipping on his grain? How would he pay for seeds and fertilizers? How would he make his mortgage payments, or rent payments on the land? How would he pay his insurance? How would he pay for expensive planting and harvesting equipment? How would he pay his fuel bill? But in a localized varnasrama society, he would have practically none of those expenses. He would give 25% of his production to the king. Then he would take whatever he needed for his family and any other workers. Then he would donate to the brahmanas. Then he would sell the excess, if there was any. That is the picture that emerges when you study Prabhupada's instructions on the matter. But we can't get alarmed and say, "Wait a second, this will never work. How can I give 25% of all I produce to a kstriya?" Don't worry. Srila Prabhupada knows that no one can do this in the current situation, when we are living in a market-oriented society, and people have to pay land payments, equipment payments, insurance payments, etc. He's talking about the future. He's talking about a varnasrama society, a society in which the ksatriya would protect the farmer from all of these artificial expenses. The other thing to remember is that Srila Prabhupada was always practical. I'm sure that if we really had a varnasrama community, one in which members of all the varnas were thoroughly trained in their duties, and we found this system unworkable after sincerely trying it for a few years, we could modify it to something that worked. But why not try it first, see if it works, then change it. I don't think we should just reject this idea out of hand. We should try it. Of course, the whole thing is probably a long way down the road. Do you know of any ksatriyas who are offering farmers training and land? Do you know of any brahmanas who are advising them about how to set this up? I don't. Anyway, below are some quotes that I hope will clarify things. your servant, Hare Krsna dasi ************************** TAXES This is the Vedic system, that if I grow something, first of all twenty-five percent to the king, then to the temple, to the brahmanas, to the poor. And then balance, I shall take. Morning Walk June 29, 1975, Denver Actually, human life is meant for that purpose to understand God and His potencies and to revive our old (own) relationship with Him. That is the main business. But unfortunately, they are being engaged in factories, in other work, to work like hogs and dogs, and their whole energy is being spoiled. Not only spoiled, but their characters, they are working so hard, so after working so hard they must drink intoxication. Then after drinking, they must eat meat. After this combination, they require sex. So in this way, they're kept in the darkness. And here, these verses of Rsabhadeva, he says warning. He's warning, He's speaking to his sons, but we can take the lesson. That he says: nayam deho deha-bhajam nrloke kastan kaman arhate vid-bhujam ye. Kaman means the necessities of life. You can get your necessities of life very easily. By tilling the field, you get grains. And if there is cow, you get milk. That's all. That is sufficient. But the leaders are making plan, that if they are satisfied with their farming work, little grains and milk, then who will work in the factory? Therefore they are taxing so that you cannot live even simple life_this is the position_even if you desire. The modern leaders will not allow you. They force you to work like dogs and hogs and asses. This is the position. But still, we have to refrain from such unnecessary hard labor. It may be that government may take action against me because I'm speaking something revolutionary. Yes. But that is the fact. Why you should work? God has made provision for the birds, beasts, animals, ants, and if I'm devotee of God, He'll not give me food? What I've done wrong? So don't be agitated in that point. You will have all your necessities of life, but you remain fixed up in your determination in Krsna consciousness. Don't be agitated by this nonsense belief. Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.5.1-8 Stockholm, September 8, 1973 So ksatriya's income is to take some tax. What is that tax? Not in money. But people are engaged in agricultural work, so whatever he has produced, he gives twenty-five percent to the ruler. That's all. That includes income tax, this tax, that tax. No more tax. "Take. Whatever I have got, you take twenty-five percent." Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.22 Chicago, July 6, 1975 Yes inflation is due to paper currency. As for land ownership, in the Vedic civilization the land was given to the people for cultivation not for ownership, and a tax was collected which was 25% of the person's income. The land belonged to the state and the man would cultivate it and pay 25% to the state. If he has no income then he doesn't have to pay. If he doesn't pay tax he may be disowned of the land. One cannot get land from the government unless he agrees to produce something and if everyone produces food then there is no scarcity. At least he has his own food produced by himself. Letter to: Balavanta Tirupati 28 April, 1974 For livelihood, one has to work. That is material world. So you work. And what is that work? If one, one works for three months on the field, he can get his whole years' food. That is economically fact. How many mounds of grains we can produce per acre? Do you know that? We know, in our Indian calculation, we can produce at least ten mounds of grain per bigha. So if one has got ten bighas of land, he can produce hundred mounds of grains. So how much you can eat daily. Just compute it. Utmost two pounds. Utmost. So if you eat two pounds grains per day. In a month, sixty pounds. And eighty-two pounds makes one mound. You are getting one thousand mounds. One thousand mounds. Then? Ten bighas of land... Bhagavan: One hundred mounds. Prabhupada: One hundred. Guru Gauranga: Mounds. Prabhupada: So you get enough food by working three months. But they'll not work in the field. They'll work in the factory. The... Now the world situation is there that they have invented so many artificial work. So people are embarrassed with this kind of work. He doesn't find any time. Room Conversation with Anna Conan Doyle, daughter-in-law of famous author, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle August 10, 1973, Paris Raja-dharma is a great science, unlike modern diplomacy for political supremacy. The kings were trained systematically to become munificent and not merely be tax collectors. SB 1.9.27 PURPORT Maharaja Yudhisthira was not a mere tax collector. He was always conscious of his duty as a king, which is no less than that of a father or spiritual master. The king is to see to the welfare of the citizens from all angles of social, political, economic and spiritual upliftment. SB 1.9.49 PURPORT Dhruva Maharaja, as an ideal king, practically emptied his treasury by giving charity. A king is not meant simply to realize taxes from the citizens and accumulate wealth to spend in sense gratification. World monarchy has failed ever since kings began to satisfy their personal senses with the taxes accumulated from the citizens. Of course, whether the system is monarchy or democracy, the same corruption is still going on. At the present moment there are different parties in the democratic government, but everyone is busy trying to keep his post or trying to keep his political party in power. The politicians have very little time to think of the welfare of the citizens, whom they oppress with heavy taxes in the form of income tax, sales tax and many other taxes_people sometimes have eighty to ninety percent of their income taken away, and these taxes are lavishly spent for the high salaries drawn by the officers and rulers. Formerly, the taxes accumulated from the citizens were spent for performing great sacrifices as enjoined in the Vedic literature. At the present moment, however, almost all forms of sacrifice are not at all possible; therefore, it is recommended in the sastras that people should perform sankirtana-yajna. SB 4.12.10 PURPORT TRANSLATION To give protection to the general mass of people who are citizens of the state is the prescribed occupational duty for a king. By acting in that way, the king in his next life shares one sixth of the result of the pious activities of the citizens. But a king or executive head of state who simply collects taxes from the citizens but does not give them proper protection as human beings has the results of his own pious activities taken away by the citizens, and in exchange for his not giving protection he becomes liable to punishment for the impious activities of his subjects. PURPORT The question may be raised here that if everyone engaged in spiritual activities to attain salvation and became indifferent to the activities of the material world, then how could things as they are go on? And if things are to go on as they ought to, how can a head of state be indifferent to such activities? In answer to this question, the word sreyaLord Visnu advised Maharaja Prthu that a king is not enjoined to give up his kingdom and the responsibility of protecting the prajas, or citizens, to instead go away to the Himalayas for liberation. He can attain liberation while executing his royal duties. The royal duty or the duty of the head of state is to see that the prajas, or the general mass of people, are doing their respective duties for spiritual salvation. A secular state does not necessitate a king or head of state who is indifferent to the activities of the prajas. In the modern state the government has many rules and regulations for conducting the duties of the prajas, but the government neglects to see that the citizens advance in spiritual knowledge. If the government is careless in this matter, the citizens will act whimsically, without any sense of God realization or spiritual life, and thus become entangled in sinful activities. An executive head should not be callous to the welfare of the general mass of people while he simply goes on collecting taxes. The king's real duty is to see that the citizens gradually become fully Krsna conscious. Krsna conscious means completely free from all sinful activities. As soon as there is complete eradication of sinful activities in the state, then there will be no more war, pestilence, famine or natural disturbances. This was actually prevailing during the reign of Maharaja Yudhisthira. If a king or head of the government is able to induce the citizens to become Krsna conscious, then he is worthy to rule over the mass of people; otherwise, he has no right to levy taxes. If the king looks after the spiritual interests of the citizens, he can levy taxes without difficulties. In this way both the subjects and the king will be happy during this life, and in the next life the king will be able to share one sixth of the pious activities of the citizens. Otherwise, by levying taxes on the sinful citizens, he will have to share the reactions of their sinful activities. SB 4.20.14 PURPORT TRANSLATION For a brahmana there are six occupational duties. A ksatriya should not accept charity, but he may perform the other five of these duties. A king or ksatriya is not allowed to levy taxes on brahmanas, but he may make his livelihood by levying minimal taxes, customs duties, and penalty fines upon his other subjects. PURPORT Although the ksatriyas are almost as qualified as the brahmanas, even they cannot accept charity. This is strictly prohibited in this verse by the word apratigraha. What to speak of the lower social orders, even the ksatriyas must not accept charity. The king or government may levy taxes upon the citizens in various ways_by revenue duties, customs duties, realization of fines, and so on_provided the king is able to give full protection to his subjects to assure the security of their life and property. Unless he is able to give protection, he cannot levy taxes. SB 7.11.14 Formerly, there was no democracy. The so-called democracy. Democracy means that there was one king only; now there are hundreds of kings. One king and few ministers. Now one governor, one, I mean to say, three dozen secretaries, and three dozen... So many things... It is overburdened. The tax, tax is overburdened because there are so many officers. They have to be sumptuously paid. So tax is required. So in this age, Kali-yuga, by, I mean to say, finishing the monarchical system, people have accepted the democratic system, but it is not very much improvement. Because the state expenditure has very much increased and people are very much overburdened with taxes. Bhagavad-gita 2.12 Hyderabad, November 17, 1972 Rajarsi means king; at the same time, saintly person. Not the king and robber, dasyu-dharma, imply exacting taxes, "Come on, give me tax, and you go to hell." That is not king. That is not government. It is government's duty to make... The government should be Krsna conscious, and it is government's duty to see that everyone is Krsna conscious or God conscious_you say "Krsna" or "God"; it doesn't matter. If you think that "Let the people go to hell. It doesn't matter. Bring taxes and let us enjoy, and you go to hell..." It is very horrible condition. Pandal Speech and Question Session Delhi, November 10, 1973 Prabhupada: That was perfect in Vedic system, that you... The land is supposed to belong to the government or to the king. The king gives you the land that "You make production and give me tax, one-fourth. That's all." So there is no question of profit. If you have produced one kilo, give one-fourth kilo to the king as tax. That is real social system. Actually, according to our Vedic system, everything belongs to God and the king is supposed to be representative of God to manage things. So for his managerial work he requires some money. Therefore I have taken some land for my livelihood. ***So whatever production is there, I pay one-fourth to the king for management.*** This is nice system. As soon as the tax is realized in terms of pound, shillings, pence, whole difficulty arises. I have produced ten mounds of rice and out of that one-fourth I give to the government or to the king. So I have no anxiety. If I produce twenty mounds, I give one-fourth. If I produce ten mounds, I give one-fourth. If I don't produce I don't give. This is perfect system. Pancadravida: So if I give one quarter to the king that's the representative of God, what if the brahmana and the spiritual master... Prabhupada: That we shall talk later on. Syamasundara: This Mao Tse Tung believes in using a constant ideological struggle as an accepted... Prabhupada: No, no. This ideology has no struggle. Whatever is produced, you pay one-fourth. There is no question of struggle. If I have to pay some fixed tax, ten rupees, for this land I have secured, but if I don't produce, I have no ten rupees, there is struggle. Where I get this ten rupees? Then I have to take loan from somebody else. That brings(?) my anxiety. But if this system is accepted, then I, if I produce, I give you one-fourth; if I don't produce, I have no anxiety. That is perfect system. Discussions with Syamasundara dasa Mao Tse Tung ....According to Vedic injunction, the king if he levies tax from the subjects who are sinful, then he has to partake of the sinful action and he'll have to suffer. So, this rascal became the president of India, it is the position of king and on the (indistinct) of him he supported the slaughterhouses and levied taxes and he took high salary, enjoyed it. Now he is suffering the effect, sinful effect. Now in his living condition he has lost his brain. He, practically dead but living condition, it is very precarious condition. Conversation Excerpt June 21, 1972, Los Angeles Yogesvara: In the Vedic culture, was the land divided, in the sense that some people would receive land free or...? Bhagavan: This is nice here, this ground. Yogesvara: The land in the Vedic culture, some of it was...? Prabhupada: Land belongs to the king, and you take land for cultivation, and you pay 25% tax to the king. That's all. All taxes. If you don't produce, then don't pay tax. Yogesvara: Oh, it wasn't forced that you had to pay so much. Prabhupada: No. Atreya Rsi: You pay 25% of what you have produced. Prabhupada: What you have produced, that's all. Very simple thing. Everyone was engaged producing. There was no necessity. And here the rascals are advising, produce bolts and nuts, tire, and drill petrol. They are not producing food. And the so-called government men, they are levying taxes, and they are enjoying. Morning Walk at Villa Borghese May 25, 1974, Rome So when you know who is the proprietor, then this Isopanisad.... Tena tyaktena bhunjitha. Isavasyam idam sarvam. Everything, God's property. You enjoy for livelihood what is given to you. That's all. That is perfect philosophy. "I am the proprietor." That was the system in Vedic civilization. God is proprietor. King is the representative of God. He knows.... He gives you some land, that "You take this land, produce your livelihood, utilizing this land, and whatever you produce, one fourth give me." Not a fixed tax. "If you produce, one fourth is mine. If you don't produce, there is no tax." This was the system. And that includes all tax. No botheration. So people were God-fearing, honest, simple-dealing. So "I have produced a hundred mounds of rice. The king, you can take twenty-five mounds. That is my obligation." And king is also satisfied. By distributing that grain, he maintains the whole government. The real difficulty is all these rascals, they are not sufficiently educated. Morning Walk and Conversation on Roof December 26, 1975, Sanand Between two parties of king or political, they may fight. Citizens, they have nothing to do who is the victorious. "You fight and one of you will become victorious. So you take taxes. I am concerned with paying tax. And tax, tax means whatever I have grown, you take one-fourth. You see this I have grown. Now you can take away one-fourth." No income tax, no sale tax, no this tax or that tax. And if some year, by chance, he has not grown anything_no tax. "I have not produced, I could not produce anything." Very simple. Soldiers, they were not paid. They were given land by the king. "You enjoy this land without any price. But when there is fight you have to come out." Fight is not going every day. It may take place after some years. So they are living peacefully. Garden Conversation September 3, 1976, Vrndavana So the florist is given a certain tract of land free, and let him produce flower and make business. But the quantity of flower I require for my temple, he must supply daily. Similarly, the bandsman, he should come and play band. Everything was on land distribution. That was the system. And tax was paid to the government. Not by assessment. Uh, assessment... Whatever your land production is there, you give to the government one-fourth. That's all. If you have produced 1,000 mound grains, you have to give to the government 250 mounds. And if you have produced 100, then you give 25. So there is no question of harassment. Room Conversation July 16, 1968, Montreal Everything, God's property. You enjoy for livelihood what is given to you. That's all. That is perfect philosophy. "I am the proprietor." That was the system in Vedic civilization. God is proprietor. King is the representative of God. He knows.... He gives you some land, that "You take this land, produce your livelihood, utilizing this land, and whatever you produce, one fourth give me." Not a fixed tax. "If you produce, one fourth is mine. If you don't produce, there is no tax." This was the system. And that includes all tax. No botheration. So people were God-fearing, honest, simple-dealing. So "I have produced a hundred mounds of rice. The king, you can take twenty-five mounds. That is my obligation." And king is also satisfied. By distributing that grain, he maintains the whole government. Morning Walk and Conversation on Roof December 26, 1975, Sanand In modern days the people in general occupy the administration by the strength of manipulated votes, but they are never trained in the primary duties of the king, and that is also not possible for everyone. Under the circumstances the untrained administrators play havoc to make the subjects happy in all respects. On the other hand, these untrained administrators gradually become rogues and thieves and increase the taxation to finance a top-heavy administration that is useless for all purposes...The thieves and dacoits were punished in an exemplary way so that in the future no one would dare commit such nuisances in an organized form. Such thieves and dacoits were never meant for administration as they are now. The taxation law was simple. There was no force, no encroachment. The king had a right to take one fourth of the production made by the subject. The king had a right to claim a fourth of one's allotted wealth. One would never grudge parting with it because due to the pious king and religious harmony there was enough natural wealth, namely grains, fruits, flowers, silk, cotton, milk, jewels, minerals, etc., and therefore no one was materially unhappy. The citizens were rich in agriculture and animal husbandry, and therefore they had enough grains, fruits and milk without any artificial needs of soaps and toilets, cinemas and bars. The king had to see that the reserved energy of humanity was properly utilized. Human energy is meant not exactly for fulfilling animal propensities, but for self-realization. The whole government was specifically designed to fulfill this particular purpose. As such, the king had to select properly the cabinet ministers, but not on the strength of voting background. The ministers, the military commanders and even the ordinary soldiers were all selected by personal qualification, and the king had to supervise them properly before they were appointed to their respective posts. The king was especially vigilant to see that the tapasvis, or persons who sacrificed everything for disseminating spiritual knowledge, were never disregarded. The king knew well that the Supreme Personality of Godhead never tolerates any insult to His unalloyed devotees. Such tapasvis were trusted leaders even of the rogues and thieves, who would never disobey the orders of tapasvis. The king would give special protection to illiterates, the helpless and widows of the state. Defense measures were arranged previous to any attack by the enemies. The taxing process was easy, and it was not meant for squandering, but was for strengthening the reserve fund. The soldiers were recruited from all parts of the world, and they were trained for special duties. 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