Guest guest Posted September 7, 1998 Report Share Posted September 7, 1998 >>My conclusion is VAD is an impossible reality in an atmosphere of envy >>and lack of honesty. Who will honestly admit they are sudra?. Brahmanas will. Are you there? The only test of the brahmana according to sastras is honesty. Without brahmanas there is no varnasrnama. This is the main reason that britishers made brahmins in India bankers:-) How othewise you can destroy varnasrama? I belive to determene who is sudra the honesty test it the main thing. I belive it is from Chandoghya Upanishad 4.4.4 (can anyone confirm?). Also in Bhagavad-gita Prabhupada brings this example (Srila Prabhupada initiation lecture 1969): >So this question was asked, "Which family you belong to?" So he said, >"I do not know what is my classification." "Now, who is your >father?That I do not know.Ask your mother." Then he went to his >mother, "Who is my father?My dear boy, I do not know." So actually >his mother was maidservant. So maidservants have so many men, and by >whom she was pregnant she cannot remember. She also told the truth. >And this Satyakam, he also came to Gautama Muni, he said, "Sir, my >father, my mother also do not know who is my father." "Oh, that's >all right. You are a brahmana. Because you are truthful. You do not >hide yourself, that 'I am a prostitute's son. You say this is the >position. I am plainly speaking that my mother does not know who is my >father. I do not know!" So because he was truthful... That is the >symptom of brahmana." He accepted, "Yes, I'll accept you as my disciple." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 1998 Report Share Posted September 8, 1998 > After all in the outside world you also don.t expect from a construction > worker to show the qualities or intelectual expertise of a professor of a > university, or would you? > Still he can make a valuable contribution in helping to bild a house or a > temple, what we would appreciate surely, or? Yes. Some speak of the horrification of varnasrama, where we have different "castes" of people, like in India. But don't we actually have different castes in the society already now? We have professors, construction workers, politicians, business men, etc. etc. Varnasrama, as I see it, just means that we say: Yes, there are different classes of people. Let's build a society which takes that into account, and train the different classes to become better and work together for the best of society. your servant Prsnigarbha das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 1998 Report Share Posted September 9, 1998 > In a modern capitalistic society, to some degree people hold the belief > that a person can pursue a carear according to his own talents and > ambition. In other words, a person can succeed according to his natural > abilities. I thought that was the idea with Varnasrama also, that you can persue a carear according to your own talet and ambition. Some devotees here have actually said that they don't want varnasrama because it becomes another caste society. That was I was bringing out the point of casts in the western society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 1998 Report Share Posted September 17, 1998 > their service to Krsna, no matter what varna they work in. Seems like > Prabhupada Village has a good start on creating the right environment to > begin varnasrama. That sounds fantastic. Maybe that is the way. That everyone declares themselves sudras, but then as time progresses the other varnas materializes themselves. It sounds better than everyone declares themselves brahmanas. your servant Prsnigabha das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 1998 Report Share Posted September 18, 1998 >> Harikesa: Pick out. >> >> Prabhupada: Pick out. And rest who is neither brahmana, nor ksatrya, nor >> vaisya, then he is sudra. That's all. Very easy thing. If he cannot be >trained >> up as engineer, then he remains as a common man. . . . . This is the way >> of organizing society. > >Sounds like working from the bottom up to me, albiet in a different sense >from what we have discussed before. Sounds that someone should PICK OUT. Isn't it the trained one who can pick out? Or was it 'stick out'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 1998 Report Share Posted September 19, 1998 >> >Sounds like working from the bottom up to me, albiet in a different >> >sense from what we have discussed before. >> >> Sounds that someone should PICK OUT. Isn't it the trained one who can >> pick out? Or was it 'stick out'? > >Yes, pick out. In the context, Srila Prabhupada was saying to assume >everyone as sudra, then offer the opportunity to be trained for more >complex tasks. Those who are capable of receiving the training , pick >out and continue >to train upwards. That is why he said every center should have a VAD >college. > >Not that we only give brahminical training to everyone we can lure into >the bhakta program and hope that by concentrating on the top, everyting >will somehow work out and if they fall away it was because they were in >maya. Yes. It is so. But first you need the brahmanas to PICK UP and TRAIN. Anyone who trains devotees I belive should be a brahmana. So to teach people how to manage the society is one of the uncovered functions of ISKCON. This why we should organize VA colleges (as you rightly pointing out and as Srila Prabhupada wanted). Now will it be logical to keep it outside of the jurisdiction of ISKCON rules for initiated devotees? What you think? Should someone who kills as a profession be a ISKCON member? Don't have to be but he can be linked up and he should follow the brahmanas. I know that you have a painful experience of brahmanas who where too idealistic etc. etc. but real teachers of varnas should be ISKCON brahmanas isn't it? So be a brahmana (simple truthful KC etc) or follow the brahmanas... >This we must follow. That is human civilization. Therefore he >prescribes that brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. Either you become >brahmana or _follow the instruction_ of the brahmanas, then your life is >perfect. Both things are there. If you like to be brahmana, that you >can become also. Mam hi partha vyapasritya. This is Krsna consciousness >movement. Prabhupada's Lectures Bhagavad-gita 1974 ============================================= CCD: Yes it is true that it is very difficult to give VASINAVA training in the bhakta programs and we CAN expand our society by training people for ksatriyas etc, BUT it is not that the ISKCON (brahmana) training will become secondary to that. When Prabhupada was talking that we should introduce VA 'among our members' he (i firmly belive) wanted the expansions so that more and more devotees could come to KC and become prefect (gradually or even more gradually). Not that one who is 10 years in the movement and serving in some temple will one day be classified as a sudra and when someone will meet him on the street in Calcutta and ask him: "Baba, I see you have tread, are you a Brahmin?" Opps. he will turn red and say proudly: "No, I have been classified as a sudra!" Expand, use the trained devotees to train others. Not that we have to invite someone to train our brahmanas how to be sudras... it is difficult but not impossible to be trained as a vaisnava: >... It is very very difficult to train them to become purified by >training. These status of life were different status of >training so that ultimately one can become brahmana and when he's >fully trained up as a brahmana then he transcends the brahmana's >position and he becomes a Vaisnava. So to become Vaisnava is not so >easy thing. One has to become brahmana. Then when he surpasses the >stages of becoming brahmana then he becomes a Vaisnava. >Suddha-sattva. Sattvam visuddham vasudeva sabd itam. Then Krsna is >born. When one comes to the Vaisnava stage then he can understand >what is Krsna. Just like Krsna was born of Vasudeva. Similarly when >one comes to the stage of Vasudeva... Vasudeva means perfect. Prabhupada's Lectures Srimad-Bhagavatam 1976 ============================================= Yes one can archive perfection of Human life but one cannot have Krsna residing in his heart if he not pure brahmana. One a new bhakta can be a pure brahmana and he may loose it too if not careful. Haribol. Your servant, Caitanya candrodaya dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 1998 Report Share Posted September 20, 1998 >Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, "Srila Prabhupada wants some to be >sudra..." > >Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don't want. Here Prabhupada clearly stated that that he don't want it. He don't want to have his disciples to be sudras, he wants everyone to be a vaisnava. I want everyone to become Vaisnava. >But because he's a sudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to >the platform of brahmana, or Vaisnava. So to expand the movement you can invite MORE people and they may not immidiately (or even in this life) get to the level of brahmanas or vaisnavas, but becouse they follow the instructions they are still vaisnavas. There is not instance that Prabhupada whould take his disciples and tell them: ok I think you are vaisya and this fellow is sudra. he was talking about expansion, and that would include the ones who may fell down as he stresses many times in this discussion on the verandah in Mayapur. Also forive me if anything, I don't write is so often but still... Your servant, Caitanya candrodaya dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 1998 Report Share Posted September 21, 1998 >>There is not instance that Prabhupada whould take his disciples >>and tell them: ok I think you are vaisya and this fellow is sudra. > > >Clearly Srila Prabhupada wanted his society of disciples divided into the >four varnas and asramas. I'm asking if ever Prabhupada tell anyone --" you are vaisya" and "your are sudra"? And also where are the gurus who told it to their initiated disciples? >Ask your senior >Godbrothers Abhirama and Hari Sauri Prabhus (if you respect their >authority). Well I can ask the same question Abhirama today when I see him. I understand that Prabhupada wanted VA and that he wanted us to teach varnas and build VA communities etc, but did he tell anyone that he is sudra now or vaisya now? I hope I will hear clear fact and the date when it happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 1998 Report Share Posted September 21, 1998 >For a humble devotee, who is secure in the position of being a servant >of Krsna and deriving their sense of self worth from being a servant, the >external designation will be secondary and nonthreatening, as you have so >correctly stated. Talking about fear. It seems true. I have seen this type of fear you describe. Now there are other fears. Fears that we might do not in the exact same way Prabhupada wanted and run in trouble (just like with gurus, Prabhupada wanted his disciples to be gurus, now almaost everyone agree that it was not implemented rightly especially in the early days after the Prabhupadas departure). What you think about this type of fear? I have it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 1998 Report Share Posted September 22, 1998 So as I promised I went to see Abhiram Pr and asked him whether Prabhupada ever told any of his disciples: Ok you are sudra, or from now on you are vaisya etc. So I got a very clear answer: no. I asked it a few times... He also said that Prabhupada was the most sensible man he ever meet. Also it was him that Srila Prabhupada said that 50% of his work wasn't finished and it is VA. (He is not sure when exactly it happen and he has to refer to his diary in that time.) >> I hope I will hear clear fact and the date when it happened. > >Someone with folio can look it up, but I know that sometime some place >he said >if devotees fell asleep in SB class they should go to the Plow Department. ??? (where is this one coming from?) > But regardless if he did it himself, he did give clear instructions that >you need to recognise people's qualities and engage them accordingly. The >main point being to engage everyone, and not just that if someone is not >a brahman then there is no place for that person. I agree agree. There should place for everyone whether a person is a disciple, friend, follower or a supporter. VA is a great tool for that. Also I belive that voluntarily one can take a role he likes: You can move to a land and live of the land and become sudra or vaisya if you like, but you need a brahmana-vaisnava to show you HOW TO LIVE OFF THE LAND. Your servant, Caitanya candrodaya dasa ****************************** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 1998 Report Share Posted September 23, 1998 >>I'm asking if ever Prabhupada tell anyone --" you are vaisya" and "your >>>>are sudra"? > >He did tell some devotees to run a business (spiritual sky), didn't he? He >>may also have told someone to be a temple driver or temple cleaner or >>vegetable cutter. And he told some to do intellectual or scholarly work >>(e.g BBT or BTG). That is some kind of division of society. Caitanya >>Mahaprabhu did the same. He gave different services to different devotees. Exactly the same point I'm making. Services should be applied accord to the nature of a devotee. Srila Prabhupada didn't initiate the disciples into vaisyas for example, but he gave vaisya services to a devotees to do and that was nessesary a permanent situation, them may take sannyas too right? This why I feel insecure when someone comes forward and tells me: Prabhu, all this (during Prabhupadas presence) was wrong and now we have to label devotees as sudras, vaisya, brahmans etc. I don't agree. Moreover varna aspect of the varnasrama is BASED on the economy (and sati-dharma BTW). It naturally grows from the agrarian economy. So if any farm will work economically adn there is cow protection the varnas will automatically be exposed. If it's a KC farm it will be KC VA system. There is no need for every center to divide its members into classes, social system is based on economy and family tradition. >So dividing your community according to psycho physical inclination is >>natural and there is nothing wrong with it. You cannot avoid it Maybe it is natural. it should be natural. I'm not against dividing the community if its done based on Prabhupadas instructions. I'm against the inventions and mistakes that we are so capable to make and has already proven it in the guru worship system that was established after the Prabhupada's departure. It took years to understand that and only in 1987 or so it started changing adn is still almost the same in many places. We cannot afford same mess in the social experiments. Your servant, Caitanya candrodaya dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 1998 Report Share Posted September 23, 1998 >>What I'm asking is who among Godbrothers will be condescendingly assign >>other godbrother as sudra. > >Prabhu, you clearly have a caste consciousness about the varnas when you >make such statements. You automatically suggest that a sudra is low. Why? I wasn't saying that. I don't think that work of sudra is low or that sudra's position is less important then brahmana or that sudra is automatically lower then others (was it you who said that sudras can follow some other principles or that they can eat meat (of the goat) or go to prostitutes) in ISKCON. However there are such statements in Prabhupadas books and you cannot just ignore them. I don't have a cast consciousness otherwise I would have to be thinking that I'm a mlecha by birth;-) and there is nothing else for me. Your servant, Caitanya candrodaya dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 1998 Report Share Posted September 23, 1998 >I was just wondering if you recieved the following reply to your letter >from Anantarupa Prabhu. It appears that it was just sent to me and >varnasrama development. I did. I liked and I commented on it. Thank you prabhu. Your servant, Caitanya candrodaya dasa PS there is no need to foward the messages that you recive, since eveyone will recive them if they are to: Varnasrama development. This conference has a few hundereds of recivers so there is no need to post anything twice. If you cannot do WinCOM just get the mail forwarded from the COM (account that you have to get from sysop (AT) com (DOT) bbt.se) to your e-mail, for example on hotmail.com ? Just an idea... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 1998 Report Share Posted September 24, 1998 > >There are devotees in our movement who aren't just talking about >varnasrama but are practically doing something very substantial. E.G. >Radhanath Swami's Hospital in Mumbai. This is an example of how we can >use the talents of devotees and serve the society at large by such a >facility, provide remuneration for those devotees and then, some >stability. A hospital employs not only doctors and nurses but cooks, >administrators, cleaners, chemists etc etc. All varnas co-opertate >together to make a sucessful operation. (no pun intended) Training is >carried out at such a facility also, so the next generation are educated >and employed. This is very nice point. Instead of waiting for something isn't it better to at least learn from the Chowpati temple in Mumbay. The way they made management rotate and the standard of 'temple' devotees and especially the community support groups and how it all operates based on VA principles but applied very intelligently and in line with Prabhupadas instructions. Very nice example. I almost feel that the other leaders of communities in ISKCON should have a special training course there to see it for themself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.