Guest guest Posted January 8, 1999 Report Share Posted January 8, 1999 On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, WWW: Srila (Dasa) ACBSP (Berkeley CA - USA) wrote: > [Text 1996409 from COM] > But as Madhusudani Didi has rightly pointed out, yours is not > the kind of relationship to hold out as the example for everyone else. > > Srila dasa Dear Srila Betaji, Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. I greatly appreciate your soberly thought out comments on the need for being up-front with our definition of "duty." But, I would like to humbly point out that the word "Didi" means "elder sister," and Srila Prabhupada specifically mentioned on numerous occasions that he did not approve of addressing women as "sister." Srila Prabhupada offered two choices as ways of addressing or refering to women: They may be called "prabhu" or they may be called "mother" or a variant such as "mataji" or "mata." Another devotee has recently brought to our attention the fact that the Manu Samhita recommends addressing women as "sister." This is an example of a Vedic practice that Srila Prabhupada changed to suit our age. I appreciate your polite intentions, but I think it would be better to follow Srila Prabhupada rather than try to follow the traditional Vedic or Hindu practice of addressing women as "sister." Below is my earlier research on the topic. Your servant (and well-wishing mother), Hare Krsna dasi ------------ Subject : Prabhupada vs. Manu: Not your sister! ----- Message Text ----- On Sat, 2 Jan 1999, COM: (Bhakta) Oleg Demtchenko (Nikolaev - RU) wrote: {quoting Manu Samhita} > 129. But to a female who is the wife of another man, and not a > blood-relation, he must say, 'Lady' (bhavati) or 'Beloved sister!' ************************ Hare Krsna dasi comments: Once again, we will lose the benefit of Srila Prabhupada's advice if we jump directly to Manu. At the time when Manu wrote this law, in polite society perhaps there could be no thought of having sexual relations with a person seen as "sister." Things have changed. And Srila Prabhupada has adapted the rules to respond to our degraded standards. Prabhupada very strongly objected to the idea of addressing women as "sister." And he expressed this on many occasions. As a spiritual master, Srila Prabhupada of course saw most of the women he had to deal with as "daughters" not "mothers." But when we search the folio carefully, we do find several instances where he refers to women outside ISKCON (usually spiritual leaders from other Vaisnava movements) as "Mother" but never "Sister." On one occasion, he even refers to his own female disciples as his "little mothers." I have not found one example where he refers to women (other than his own birth sisters) as "sister." In one quote he indicates that if he is a stranger, an unknown woman should see even him as her son -- he does not say the woman should see him as her brother. So we have a choice: Do we want to follow Srila Prabhupada, or do we think that by going directly to Manu, we can achieve a level of "Vedic" practice which is higher than what he demonstrated for us? We are neophytes. It is dangerous for us to attempt to follow Manu directly. We do not realize the subtle dangers that await us. Let Srila Prabhupada guide us to using the parts of Manu that are appropriate for our age, and in doing so, let us look both to his words and to his practical examples as "acarya" -- "one who teaches by example." ************************************** Bhagavad-gita 4.14 Vrndavana, August 6, 1974 Brahmananda: In your lecture you quoted Canakya Pandita that a man must see every woman other than his own wife as mother. How should a woman see other men? Prabhupada: As son. (laughter) Brahmananda: That was my idea. Prabhupada: Yes. If I see woman as mother, she must see me as son. That's all. That is the system. The brahmacari, the sannyasi go to beg alms from door to door. "Mother, give me some bhiksa, alms." And it is the duty of the grhastha to treat brahmacari and sannyasi as their son. As they maintain their children with food, shelter, cloth, similarly the brahmacaris and sannyasis, they are dependent on the society. They should be treated as the sons of the society. And they must supply their necessities, bare necessities. A sannyasi, brahmacari, does not want more than what they need. They should not collect more than what they need. Bhiksa nirvahana. Not collect more and enjoy at others' cost. No. That is not the business of sannyasi. They can collect so much as they need. That's all. Devotee: When you address a woman, do you... Prabhupada: Hm? Devotee: When you address a woman do you use the word "Mataji"? Is that the right, proper word for her? Prabhupada: Mataji. Yes, very good. "Mother." ************************************************** Evening Darsana January 7, 1977, Bombay Guest (1): She's... That is the... Now, that is on one point I must tell you one small thing, that... Prabhupada: One lady... She is Subash Bose's niece, Lalita Bose. You see? Because these family are very intimately..., Subash Bose's family and Nehru family. So she calls Indira "Didi," means "elder sister." ************************************ SB 4.27.30 The King of the Yavanas continued: Here is my brother Prajvara. I now accept you as my sister. I shall employ both of you, as well as my dangerous soldiers, to act imperceptibly within this world. PURPORT Kalakanya was sent by Narada Muni to Yavana-raja so that she might become his wife, but instead of accepting her as his wife, Yavana-raja accepted her as his sister. Those who do not follow the Vedic principles are unrestricted as far as sex life is concerned. Consequently they sometimes do not hesitate to have sex with their sisters. In this age of Kali there are many instances of such incest. Although Yavana-raja accepted the request of Narada Muni to show respect to him, he was nonetheless thinking of illicit sex. ************************************************* Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.8.24 Mayapura, October 4, 1974 The woman is respected everywhere. So in India, especially, women are still respected. Therefore Canakya Pandita says, matrvat para-daresu: "Any woman who is not your wife, she should be treated as your mother." This is moral instruction. Matrvat. At the present moment, they have invented the word bahinaji, "sister." No. In the Vedic culture, there is no such thing as "sister.Mother," that is Vedic culture. Because mother is always respected, so any woman, if she is called "Mother..." ************************************************ Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.23 Los Angeles, July 13, 1974 Then second mother, the guroh patni. Guru means teacher or spiritual master. His wife, she's also... Actually, according to strict moral instruction... Why strict? Ordinary. Any woman except his own wife is mother. Any woman. It doesn't matter whether she is elderly or young. No. That is the way. Still in India, any woman by unknown person, he can address any woman "Mother." The first relationship is mother. Now they have introduced "Sister,Bahinaji." No, that is not Vedic etiquette. No bahinaji. Bahinaji means sister. Mother. Everyone should be addressed. We should learn this. Except one's one wife, all women should be addressed as "Mother." This is civilization. Then there will be no corrupt relation. If you, from the very beginning, you establish your relationship with other women as mother, then there is no question of other relationship. ********************************************* Bhagavad-gita 4.14 Vrndavana, August 6, 1974 Even in moral principle, as Canakya Pandita said, matrvat para-daresu. "All women should be treated just like mother." Not like the present society. Formerly, every woman should be addressed as "mother," Mataji. And now they have invented "Bahinji." No. Woman should be addressed as "mother." Matrvat para-daresu. ********************************************** Morning Walk November 2, 1975, Nairobi Devotee (9): Prabhupada, sometimes I've seen devotees say that they did not like to chant in the temple room with the opposite... Prabhupada: Then that is a rascal. He is not a devotee. He is a rascal, when a devotee says... How you become devoted? If he does not like the temple and he thinks to be happy outside, what is he? What kind of devotee he is? He is not a devotee. Devotee (9): What I meant to say is he does not want to chant with women in the temple room. I have seen this before. He says, "I do not want to chant in a room with women. I would rather be away from the women." Prabhupada: That means he has got distinction between men and women. He is not yet pandit. Panditah sama-darsinah. He is a fool. That's all. He is a fool. So what is the value of his words? He is a fool. Indian man (4): So he'll go first to make... Prabhupada: He should always consider, "There is woman, that's all. She is my mother." That's all. Matrvat para-daresu. Then what is the...? Suppose you sit down with your mother and chant. What is the wrong? But he is not so strong; then he should go to the forest. Why he should live in the Nairobi city? On the street there are so many women. He will walk on the street closing the eyes? (laughter) This is all rascaldom. They are rascals. They are not devotees, simply rascals. Indian man (4): Some of our devotee goes to the other temple like Swami Narayana and they want to see the ladies there, so then they are taking these instruction from them. Prabhupada: Our devotees go to Swami Narayana? Indian man (4): Yes, they go. Here our devotees, they went to Mombassa for, after Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. When I was not there, all of them went to Swami... Prabhupada: These things should be stopped. They leave their own temple and go to Swami Narayana temple? Stop. Indian man (4): They likes their lunch. They goes for lunch. Yes, that's true. All of them went without asking me. About five, six devotees, immediately from here went to Swami Narayana. Prabhupada: So this should be rectified. Indian man (4): And their theory is that... I asked Vipramukhya Swami [not from ISKCON] that "Why you have put this? Why you say to your disciple that we should not see the face of the woman?" He said that, "We should avoid." But I said, "Well, okay, when you are walking on the road automatically you will see the ladies." He said, "We turn our face to one side." I said, "First you have seen the woman. Then you are turning." (laughter) "You will look further. You have not seen the women. You have no sense, you know." Prabhupada: These are all bogus things. One should train himself that matravat para-daresu, all women, "my mother." Then it will be possible to live... Therefore the etiquette is to address every woman, "Ma, ma, mother." That is the etiquette... They should be addressed, "Mother." That will train. Indian man (4): In our Indian culture they don't call the name of the mother never, children don't. Prabhupada: No. "Mother," simply "mother," that's all. And if the woman treats man as son, then it is all right. It is safe. Indian woman: We got a very sweet sound. Everything we use "ji.Mataji", "Pitaji,Brataji,Bahinji." Prabhupada: Or... And the woman says, "Beta." ["son"] That's all right. *************************************************** Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.10 Los Angeles, January 7, 1974 That is the system still in India, any unknown woman who has no introduction with you, (s)he is addressed "Mataji." Address her. ***She may be just like daughter or granddaughter, but one would address, as a respect to the woman, as "Mother, Mataji."*** This is Indian system. Now some rascals have introduced "Bhaginiji, sister." But that is not shastric. In the sastra, all the woman, except one's wife, should be addressed as "Mother." **************************************************** **************************************************** Letter to: Yamuna, Malati, Janaki Los Angeles 20 February, 1969 My Dear little mothers, Yamuna, Malati, Janaki, Please accept my blessings. I lost my mother when I was only 14 years old. So I didn't get much of my mother's affection in my childhood. But in my old age, Krishna has given me so many young mothers to take care of me. Another mother Govinda Dasi is there in Hawaii. She is always asking me to go there. So I will go there within this month. But my one appeal is to my fathers and mothers [TEXT MISSING] *************************************** Letter to: Yamuna Hawaii 13 March, 1969 69-03-13 ....Another news is that Mother Syama dasi came to L.A. with some of her Gujarati devotees. She appeared to be nice Vaisnavi. And she wants to work in cooperation with me. I have told her that I have no objection but how we shall cooperate, that is to be formulated when we meet next. In the meantime, she has said that she has collected some money from the Indian community in London, perhaps 10,000 pounds, and she is anxious to start a temple there. So you can think over this matter, how we can cooperate with her. ************************************************* Letter to: Bapi Los Angeles 15 February, 1970 You will be glad to learn that our Sankirtana Movement in the Western world is going on very successfully. Your fathers Spiritual Teacher, Mother Anandamayee, is very much fond of Sankirtana. So I wish that your father may send us mrdanga (Khol) and karatalas for this great Sankirtana Yajna. Mother Anandamayee has got many rich followers, if some of them send us this khol and karatalas for our different centers all over the world--Europe, American, Canada, Japan, Australia then it will be a great cooperation. *************************************** Letter to: Caru Mayapur February 28, 1977 Berkeley Dear Caru, Please accept my blessings. I have received your letter of January 24, and examined the contents. Regarding your standing in the book distribution as number three in the world, I am very pleased that you have worked so hard to help me in carrying out the order of my Guru Maharaja. Be convinced that you are doing the highest service for your fellow countrymen by distributing books of Krsna Consciousness. Actually in the west there is now no culture, and no brain even for what is the purpose of life. American civilization is finished, except that it can be saved if it takes to Krsna Consciousness....I have accepted Mother Debbie for first initiation and her spiritual name is Divyadrsti dasi. ****************************************** ****************************************** I hope these statements from Srila Prabhupada will remind us that his standard was that men should regard all women except their wives as "mother" not as "sister" - regardless of what we may find in Manu Samhita. your servant, Hare Krsna dasi ================================================= Recently, Visaka Prabhu posted a very informative text containing Srila Prabhupada's quotes using "Prabhu" to address and refer to women. It would be helpful if this could be re-posted. But the bottom line is, if we want to follow Srila Prabhupada, "Prabhu" and "Mother" are accepted terms to refer to women. "Sister" is not. your servant, Hare Krsna dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 1999 Report Share Posted January 8, 1999 HKdd wrote: >Dear Srila Betaji, Does Prabhupada say somewhere that in women should address men by their name followed by betaji? >But, I would like to humbly point out that the word "Didi" means "elder >sister," and Srila Prabhupada specifically mentioned on numerous occasions >that he did not approve of addressing women as "sister." Was Prabhupada's objection to using "bahinji" (a modern invention) rather than "didi" or both? >> 129. But to a female who is the wife of another man, and not a >> blood-relation, he must say, 'Lady' (bhavati) or 'Beloved sister!' Does someone know what is the Sanskrit for "beloved sister"? >As a spiritual master, Srila Prabhupada of course saw most of the women he >had to deal with as "daughters" not "mothers." But when we search the >folio carefully, we do find several instances where he refers to women >outside ISKCON (usually spiritual leaders from other Vaisnava movements) >as "Mother" but never "Sister." Prabhupada did use the term "didi" as a child: Room Conversation, September 9, 1976, Vrndavana Prabhupada: I have seen that young woman who was married with that gentleman... In our childhood we used to called her didi. Didi means elder sister. So the relationship was very thick and thin. But that old man, not less than sixty-five, and this young woman, utmost twenty to twenty-five. She was serving the husband like anything. We have seen it. There is no question of changing or being dissatisfied. -- Conversation about Old Days in Calcutta July 1, 1977, Våndävana 770701r5.vrn Prabhupada: Then we began to... I used to call his wife didi, as my sister, eldest sister. That man was old. At that time he was at least seventy years old. And his wife died, so he had no children, so he married again. Old husband, young wife, but the relationship was so nice, great devotee and the wife devoted. Your servant, Sita dd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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