Vedic versus Varnasrama

January 11, 1999

Hare Krsna dasi

**************************************

The question has been raised: Since Srila Prabhupada based his

instructions on varnasrama upon instructions found in the Vedas, why not

just refer to those scriptures directly, rather than simply accepting

Srila Prabhupada's presentation of them? What could be the harm?

In particular, recently a number of devotees have taken an interest in

various passages they have found in the Manu Samhita. The danger is, from

what I can see, that Srila Prabhupada has gone to the Vedas, taken those

parts which can helps us, and then modified them to be appropriate to the

present age. Then he has administered them to us in conjunction with

practices which will be most effective in aiding our spiritual

advancement. When we attempt to jump over Srila Prabhupada and decide

what parts we like without referring to his instructions and his personal

example, we run the risk of becoming distracted from the major tasks he

has set for us, at the least, and at the worst, in creating a society

which is the opposite of what he intended - one which will lead us away

from devotion to Krsna and will repel others from our movement, rather

than attracting them in.

Although our movement is founded on the Vedas, we should not just go to

the Vedas and pick and choose what we think we need. We can compare the

Vedas with a drugstore. The Vedas contain some antidotes to our sickness

of materialism. Similarly, in a drugstore, we may find some remedies to

different physical ailments we suffer from. But when we have a serious

illness, we don't wander up and down the stocks on the shelves trying

different medicines to see if they will help us. Instead, we ask our

doctor. The doctor prescribes the type and quantity of the medication

that we need. In addition the doctor may prescribe other things that will

help the medicine work better, such as specific diet advice and exercise

program. All my medicine comes from the drugstore, but I take it under

the guidance of my doctor.

Similarly, all our instruction comes ultimately from the Vedic literature,

but we take it under the guidance of Srila Prabhupada. Sometimes doctors

have some medications which they find effective in many of the cases they

treat. "Take two aspirin and go to bed." Or they may have certain

antibiotics they frequently prescribe. Srila Prabhupada has determined

that the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad Bhagavatam and a few other texts will

improve the spiritual health of all patients.

Therefore he has translated these texts for us, and encouraged us to

imbibe from them liberally. But other texts, such as the Manu Samhita, he

has given us in very small and select doses. Large doses, and randomly

selected could impede the progress of our Krsna conscious movement,

especially at this immature stage. To me, the risk seems especially great

in the matter of beginning a varnasrama society. Whether because of the

poor translations we have access to, or because people are different now

than they were perhaps 10,000 years ago, or whatever the reason, the mood

of some of the specific instructions of the Manu Samhita is so different

than that put forward by Srila Prabhupada that for us to attempt to follow

them directly in the current day and age, would no doubt drive people away

from our movement and destroy our chances of establishing the kind of

varnasrama society that Srila Prabhupada envisioned.

For one thing, the emphasis is different. Two fundamental principles

emerge when one studies Srila Prabhupada's vision of varnasrama

**********************

1. Visnu aradhyate. Society should cooperate to please the Supreme

Personality of Godhead:

**************************************

varnasramacaravata

purusena parah puman

visnur aradhyate pantha

nanyat tat-tosa-karanam

"The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Visnu, is worshiped by the

proper execution of prescribed duties in the system of varna and asrama.

There is no other way to satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead."

(Visnu Purana 3.8.9) One must ultimately worship Lord Visnu, and for that

purpose the varnasrama system organizes society into brahmanas, ksatriyas,

vaisyas, sudras, brahmacaris, grhasthas, vanaprasthas and sannyasis.

-Srimad-Bhagavatam 8.20.11 PURPORT

****************************************

2. Sarve sukhino bhavantu. Make everyone happy.

*************************************

It may be, due to circumstantial changes in the country, the Muslim

religion may be little different from Hindu religion so far the

ritualistic ceremonies are concerned, but actually we want to see whether

you have advanced in the matter of loving God. Not that "Superficially I

am very advanced in religion, but I do not know how to love." This is the

test. Sarve sukhino bhavantu. This is the test. A devotee wants to see

that everyone is happy. It doesn't matter whether he is a Hindu or a

Muslim or a Christian. It doesn't matter. We want to see that everyone is

happy.

Ceremony Speech Excerpt

Vrndavana, August 18, 1974

Parasparartham means mutual help. The brahmanas should give advice to the

ksatriyas, to the government, and the government, according to the nice

good advice, should maintain the state. In this way there will be peaceful

condition of the society. Therefore there is the institution of

varnasrama. Catur-varnyam maya... Krsna says, "I have made this varnasrama

for the benefit of the whole human society, although I don't belong to any

varna, asrama." Krsna has nothing to do, but to maintain the human society

very peaceful, advancing in spiritual knowledge, this varnasrama is

required. Therefore sometimes I become very eager to start a varnasrama

college. We have nothing to do with varnasrama, we Krsna..., But we want

to see that the whole human society is peaceful. That is our mission.

Sarve sukhino bhavantu. This is the desire of the Supreme Personality of

Godhead, and those who are servants of the Supreme Personality of Godhead,

they should also desire how to do good to the whole human society.

-Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.12

Los Angeles, June 25, 1975

****************************

Prabhupada refers to this injuncton a number of times: Sarve sukhino

bhavantu - Make everyone happy. And, many times he specifically refers to

it as a Vedic injunction. This is the essence of the Vedas that he wants

to give to us - how to organize society so that everyone is serving the

Surpreme Personality of Godhead and that everyone is feeling happiness by

doing that service.

But is that what we will produce if we go to Manu Samhita directly? First

of all, in Manu Samhita there is a great emphasis on punishment.

In ISKCON we may be frustrated by unchaste women, unworthy brahmanas, and

adulterous men. But consider Manu's remedies of these problems. Are we

really prepared to employ them? Are we qualified, are we authorized? And

if we did, what would the public think of us? How many people could we

attract to our movement? What kind of people would they be?

And finally, can we realistically imagine Srila Prabhupada applying any of

these measures?

Here's one of Manu's punishments for an unchaste woman:

VIII, 371 If a wife, proud of the greatness of her relatives or (her

own) excellence, violates the duty which she owes to her lord, the king

shall cause her to be devoured by dogs in a place frequented by many.

A punishment for an adulterous man:

VIII, 372 Let him cause the male offender to be burnt on a red-hot iron

bed; they shall put logs under it, (until) the sinner is burned (to

death).

A punishment for a brahmana:

XI, 100-101 A Brahmana who has stolen the gold (of another Brahmana)

shall go to the king and confessing his deed, say, "Lord punish me!"

Taking (from him) the club (which he must carry), the king himself shall

strike him once, by his death the thief becomes pure...

A punishment for a sex offender:

XI, 171 He who has had sexual intercourse with sisters by the same

mother, with the wives of a friend, or of a son, with unmarried maidens,

and with females of the lowest castes, shall perform the penance,

prescribed for the violation of the Guru's bed.

(XI, 104-105 He who violates his Guru's bed, shall, after having

confessed his crime, extend himself on a heated iron bed, or embrace the

red-hot image (of a woman); by dying he becomes pure; Or, having himself

cut off his organ and his testicles and having taken them in his joined

hands, he may walk straight towards the region of the Nirriti (the

south-west), until he falls down (dead.))

*****************************

Offenses need punishment, but it is difficult to imagine that Prabhupada

would ever have sanctioned such gruesome and extreme punishments in the

modern age.

****

One the other hand, some of Manu Samhita's recommendations seem to involve

dangerously familiar mixings of the opposites sexes. Srila Prabhupada has

conveyed to us Manu Samhita's injunction that one must never remain alone

with any woman except his wife:

II. 215 One should not sit in a lonely place with one's mother, sister,

or daughter; for the senses are powerful, and master even a learned man;

But it is difficult to imagine him advocating the next two verses,

especially the 217:

216 But at his pleasure a young student may prostrate himself on the

ground before the young wife of a teacher, in accordance with the rule,

and say, "I, N. N., (worship thee, O lady)."

217 On returning from a journey he must clasp the feet of his teacher's

wife and daily salute her (in the manner just mentioned) remembering the

duty of the virtuous.

********************************

Then again some injunctions in Manu Samhita exclude spiritual

opportunities to certain groups of people:

IX, 18 For women no (sacramental) rite (is performed) with sacred texts,

thus the law is settled; women (who are) destitute of strength and

destitute of (the knowledge of) Vedic texts, (are as impure as) falsehood

(itself), that is a fixed rule.

But in adapting the scriptural injunctions for the present age, Srila

Prabhupada did offer sacramental rites for women: both first and second

initiation. Women in Srila Prabhupada's movement were not "destitute of

the knowledge of Vedic texts." He expected them to understand

Bhagavad-gita and Srimad Bhagavatam as well as the men disciples. He

requested them to distribute books and give Bhagavatam classes.

*********************************

Manu Samhita also prohibits spiritual instruction for certain classes of

people:

IV, 82 Let him not give to a Sudra advice, nor the remnants (of his

meal), nor food offered to the gods; nor let him explain the sacred law

(to such a man), nor impose (upon him) a penance.

81 For he who explains the sacred law (to a Sudra) or dictates to him a

penance, with sink together with that (man) into the hell (called)

Asamvrita.

If we attempted to follow this, there would be no book distribution and no

prasadam distribution. How would Srila Prabhupada have spread Krsna

consciousness? Once again, where Manu Samhita excludes people from

participating in Krsna consciousness, Prabhupada opens the door and

invites them to participate completely in spiritual life.

***********************************

But to me, one of the most dangerous parts of Manu Samhita is its extreme

hierarchical nature combined with its harsh treatment and disdainful

regard for the lower ranks of society. If we attempt to institute such

behavior, it will annihilate the possibility of establishing varnasrama as

envisioned by Srila Prabhupada. Consider the following, regarding how to

name a baby:

II. 33 Let (the first part of) a Brahmana's name (denote) something

auspicious, a Ksatriya's be connected with power, and a Vaisya's with

wealth, but a Sudra's (express something) contemptible.

First of all, these are names that are to be given to a child at birth.

In other words the assumption is being made that a child's varna is known

immediately at birth, i.e., the hereditary caste system. Srila Prabhupada

taught us again and again that the hereditary caste system no longer has

any relevance in the current age. Rather, the child should be guided by

the guru or teacher to get varna training according to character, not

according to birth.

But secondly, Srila Prabhupada definitely did not believe in expressing

contempt for those who occupy occupations on the lower rungs of society.

Just the opposite, he taught that everyone should be valued and

*respected* for the type of devotional service they do for the Supreme

Lord:

*********************************

The Vedic system does not condemn anyone. "You are a potter. Oh,

you are lower." No. You are as good as a priest because you are doing your

duty. That's all right. Never condemns.

This is development of later age when the so-called brahmanas

became, I mean to say, treacherous. They began to condemn so-called lower

class. There was disruption, the whole social system. But in the beginning

it was not.

So they have got respectable terms. Just like a brahmana is

addressed as pandita maharaja. A ksatriya is addressed thakura saheb,

thakur. And a merchant is addressed: sethji. And the laborer class

addressed as chouddhari, means leader. In this way everyone has got

respectable position. Why? Because the test of their success was one,

Visnu. Success... sva-karmana tam abhyarcya siddhim vindati manavah. [From

Bg 18.46: "{By worship of the Lord, who is the source of all beings and

who is all-pervading} a man can attain perfection through performing his

own work."] Whatever your occupation may be, that doesn't matter. But if

you worship the Supreme Lord by your occupation, then you are successful.

-Montreal, July 16, 1968 _ Room Conversation

*****************************

And he states that when the lower classes are not valued and respected,

the whole social system is torn apart:

**********************

[bg 9.32]

Krsna says, `Even those who are low-born, papa-yoni_the striya, vaisya and

sudra, they are also included - but by accepting Me, accepting my shelter,

they are also elevated to the transcendental position.' Now, why the

higher class of Hindu society, they neglected this injunction of

Bhagavad-gita? Suppose one is papa-yoni. Krsna says that `They can be

elevated to the transcendental position if they accept Me.' Why this

propaganda was not done by the higher class people so that the so-called

papa-yoni could be elevated? Why you rejected them? The result was that

the Mohammedans... Instead of accepting them, you rejected them, and they

have partitioned, and they have gone away, and they have become eternal

enemy of India." You see?

So this is the first time that we are trying to elevate to the highest

position of Krsna consciousness, even one is in the papa-yoni. It doesn't

matter because soul is pure. Asango 'yam purusah. The Vedas says, "The

soul is untouched by any material contamination." Simply, temporarily, he

is covered. This covering should be opened. Then he becomes pure. That is

the mission of human life, to uncover ourselves from this material

envelopment and come to the spiritual understanding, surrender to Krsna.

Moscow, June 22, 1971

Conversation with Professor Kotovsky

********************************

The reader will note that in some of these passages, Srila Prabhupada uses

the word "Vedic," but it's not the kind of Vedic that we will find if we

make our own unguided tour through the Vedas. Without Srila Prabhupada

what we will find will be harsh, gruesome, hierarchical laws which focus

on crushing certain segments of the population. But with Srila

Prabhupada, we will find a varnasrama society in which all members are

valued, all members are protected, and all members are encouraged in their

devotional service.

We need to strive for the version of varnasrama society as presented by

Srila Prabhupada and not jump over him and let our self be confused by the

"flowery language of the Vedas." Rather let's be guided by his

instruction and his example and work to develop a varnasrama society

founded on the two principles he has given us:

1. Visnu aradhyate - pleasing Lord Visnu

2. Sarve sukhino bhavantu - making everyone happy in their service.

your servant,

Hare Krsna dasi

January 13, 1999

Dear Mataji,

please accept my obeisances.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Thank you very much for your posting. Thank you very much for

all your endevour in pushing forward Varnasrama, farming,

and Internet preaching. I personally very grateful for

your articles in BTG about rural communities, small farms

and etc. Your letter contains many important questions,

however not everything is clear for me and with some topics

I disagree.

> Hare Krsna dasi

> Vedic versus Varnasrama

Maybe it should be called "Hare Krishna dasi versus Manu Samhita",

to be more correct?

> In particular, recently a number of devotees have taken an interest in

> various passages they have found in the Manu Samhita. The danger is, from

> what I can see, that Srila Prabhupada has gone to the Vedas, taken those

> parts which can helps us, and then modified them to be appropriate to the

> present age. Then he has administered them to us in conjunction with

> practices which will be most effective in aiding our spiritual

> advancement. When we attempt to jump over Srila Prabhupada and decide

> what parts we like without referring to his instructions and his personal

> example, we run the risk of becoming distracted from the major tasks he

> has set for us, at the least, and at the worst, in creating a society

> which is the opposite of what he intended - one which will lead us away

> from devotion to Krsna and will repel others from our movement, rather

> than attracting them in.

In extension of your point here, it's also dangerous to read scientific

magazines about modern agriculture, education so on. It's dangerous

to read newspapers on current events, it's dangerous to do even a single

step in our lives without asking permission from our spiritual masters,

it's dangerous at all to perceive any information by our sense organs,

'cause we can deviate from Srila Prabhupada's path.

> Although our movement is founded on the Vedas, we should not just go to

> the Vedas and pick and choose what we think we need. We can compare the

> Vedas with a drugstore. The Vedas contain some antidotes to our sickness

> of materialism. Similarly, in a drugstore, we may find some remedies to

> different physical ailments we suffer from. But when we have a serious

> illness, we don't wander up and down the stocks on the shelves trying

> different medicines to see if they will help us. Instead, we ask our

> doctor. The doctor prescribes the type and quantity of the medication

> that we need. In addition the doctor may prescribe other things that will

> help the medicine work better, such as specific diet advice and exercise

> program. All my medicine comes from the drugstore, but I take it under

> the guidance of my doctor.

When I go in drugstore, I'm not trying all different medicines. I

already

know what is my disease, and I read presciption, which is written on

almost every medicine - from that and that disease, take after lunch

so and so. Of course, when I see that my intelligence and common sense

is not enough, I go to a doctor with my doubts. Anyway, this analogy

doesn't seem to be good.

> Similarly, all our instruction comes ultimately from the Vedic literature,

> but we take it under the guidance of Srila Prabhupada. Sometimes doctors

> have some medications which they find effective in many of the cases they

> treat. "Take two aspirin and go to bed." Or they may have certain

> antibiotics they frequently prescribe. Srila Prabhupada has determined

> that the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad Bhagavatam and a few other texts will

> improve the spiritual health of all patients.

Please, mataji, don't mix these scripture with Manu Samhita. They are

on completely different levels. Bhagavatam is upasana kanda, and

Manusmriti is karma kanda. They are not equal, and they never were

equal. The danger is to consider them equal.

> To me, the risk seems especially great

> in the matter of beginning a varnasrama society. Whether because of the

> poor translations we have access to, or because people are different now

> than they were perhaps 10,000 years ago, or whatever the reason, the mood

> of some of the specific instructions of the Manu Samhita is so different

> than that put forward by Srila Prabhupada that for us to attempt to follow

> them directly in the current day and age, would no doubt drive people away

> from our movement and destroy our chances of establishing the kind of

> varnasrama society that Srila Prabhupada envisioned.

Ok, since you made your analogy with medicine, I'll make my SF analogy.

In distant desert some American arheologists were searching an ancient

city of

unknown civilization. They've found a prototype of machine, which was

resembling

a flying soucer. In fact, it was that. So they brought many technicians

and

technologists to understand and replicate it. After extensive research,

they came to result that it cannot be replicated, since engine was made

of metal, which is not possible to find on the Earth, and fuel was made

of Elerium 157, plasma with unstable protons, which also cannot

be replicated with modern technology. But they've found that many

details

are understandible and could bring much benefit for the humanity - to

reduce pollution, save oil and other earthen resourses. And then came

FBI, took everything away. Why? Because producing of new fuel, and

computer elements would

cause instability in American monopolies and syndicates, such as Shell

and IBM.

But to common people they said that the machine was radioactive and

dangerous,

and it was on the way to explode.

> For one thing, the emphasis is different. Two fundamental principles

> emerge when one studies Srila Prabhupada's vision of varnasrama

>

> **********************

>

> 1. Visnu aradhyate. Society should cooperate to please the Supreme

> Personality of Godhead:

>

> **************************************

>

> 2. Sarve sukhino bhavantu. Make everyone happy.

>

> *************************************

You are absolutely right here. (But we don't want to

make thieves, child abusers and fascists happy, do we?)

> Prabhupada refers to this injuncton a number of times: Sarve sukhino

> bhavantu - Make everyone happy. And, many times he specifically refers to

> it as a Vedic injunction. This is the essence of the Vedas that he wants

> to give to us - how to organize society so that everyone is serving the

> Surpreme Personality of Godhead and that everyone is feeling happiness by

> doing that service.

>

> But is that what we will produce if we go to Manu Samhita directly?

My idea was was not to apply Manu Samhita directly. I guess in ISKCON

there are no fools, who would like to do it. My point was to make

scientific research of Manu Samhita from historical point of view,

to find what could be applied in new varnasrama, and what is not

desirable. Srila Prabhupada's intructions should be priorities,

of course.

Anyway, do you know what will be a result of varnasrama

without laws? Anarchy. We will need a written "Code of Laws" there.

I hope that you are agree here.

> First

> of all, in Manu Samhita there is a great emphasis on punishment.

Like in any law book. Try to find a country, where is no punishments.

However, Manu Samhita also has a great emphasis on JUST punishment,

and on qualifiaction of court.

> A punishment for a sex offender:

>

> XI, 171 He who has had sexual intercourse with sisters by the same

> mother, with the wives of a friend, or of a son, with unmarried maidens,

> and with females of the lowest castes, shall perform the penance,

> prescribed for the violation of the Guru's bed.

>

> (XI, 104-105 He who violates his Guru's bed, shall, after having

> confessed his crime, extend himself on a heated iron bed, or embrace the

> red-hot image (of a woman); by dying he becomes pure; Or, having himself

> cut off his organ and his testicles and having taken them in his joined

> hands, he may walk straight towards the region of the Nirriti (the

> south-west), until he falls down (dead.))

>

> *****************************

>

> Offenses need punishment, but it is difficult to imagine that Prabhupada

> would ever have sanctioned such gruesome and extreme punishments in the

> modern age.

Well, I also agree with you, but I read some statements of several

devotees in the conference, who are desiring to castrate child

molesters.

Modern age doesn't mean more merciful age.

> One the other hand, some of Manu Samhita's recommendations seem to involve

> dangerously familiar mixings of the opposites sexes. Srila Prabhupada has

> conveyed to us Manu Samhita's injunction that one must never remain alone

> with any woman except his wife:

>

> II. 215 One should not sit in a lonely place with one's mother, sister,

> or daughter; for the senses are powerful, and master even a learned man;

>

> But it is difficult to imagine him advocating the next two verses,

> especially the 217:

>

> 216 But at his pleasure a young student may prostrate himself on the

> ground before the young wife of a teacher, in accordance with the rule,

> and say, "I, N. N., (worship thee, O lady)."

>

> 217 On returning from a journey he must clasp the feet of his teacher's

> wife and daily salute her (in the manner just mentioned) remembering the

> duty of the virtuous.

And that's it, no further instruction like "teacher's wife should

warmly embrass student in return of salute". It was a way of

showing the respect, not the lust.

> ********************************

>

> Then again some injunctions in Manu Samhita exclude spiritual

> opportunities to certain groups of people:

>

> IX, 18 For women no (sacramental) rite (is performed) with sacred texts,

> thus the law is settled; women (who are) destitute of strength and

> destitute of (the knowledge of) Vedic texts, (are as impure as) falsehood

> (itself), that is a fixed rule.

>

> But in adapting the scriptural injunctions for the present age, Srila

> Prabhupada did offer sacramental rites for women: both first and second

> initiation. Women in Srila Prabhupada's movement were not "destitute of

> the knowledge of Vedic texts." He expected them to understand

> Bhagavad-gita and Srimad Bhagavatam as well as the men disciples. He

> requested them to distribute books and give Bhagavatam classes.

Here I also agree, BTW have you ever seen texts from Brahmacarya

conference?

I've read there several times some quotes (not from Manu Samhita of

course),

which are in ten times more heavy than above mentioned.

>

> *********************************

>

> Manu Samhita also prohibits spiritual instruction for certain classes of

> people:

>

> IV, 82 Let him not give to a Sudra advice, nor the remnants (of his

> meal), nor food offered to the gods; nor let him explain the sacred law

> (to such a man), nor impose (upon him) a penance.

>

> 81 For he who explains the sacred law (to a Sudra) or dictates to him a

> penance, with sink together with that (man) into the hell (called)

> Asamvrita.

>

> If we attempted to follow this, there would be no book distribution and no

> prasadam distribution. How would Srila Prabhupada have spread Krsna

> consciousness? Once again, where Manu Samhita excludes people from

> participating in Krsna consciousness, Prabhupada opens the door and

> invites them to participate completely in spiritual life.

Your points are rights. Lord Caitanya Himself showed an example, what to

say. Our dharma is not to become casteists, we ahve to spread Krishna

consciousness and holy name in evry town and village.

> But to me, one of the most dangerous parts of Manu Samhita is its extreme

> hierarchical nature combined with its harsh treatment and disdainful

> regard for the lower ranks of society.

Hmm, I read many texts of devotees, who were complaining about

harsh treatment and disdainful regard for not elevated devotees

in ISKCON society. Manu Samhita is not a product of imagination,

people lived by these laws in Vedic times, and as we know

they had less problems and were more happy. (Please don't

misunderstand me, I'm not advocating direct implementation).

> We need to strive for the version of varnasrama society as presented by

> Srila Prabhupada and not jump over him and let our self be confused by the

> "flowery language of the Vedas."

Yes, and as I remember one of his instruction was that ISKCON is

meant for developing independent thinking in all kinds of knowledge,

not for creating bureaucracy.

> Rather let's be guided by his

> instruction and his example and work to develop a varnasrama society

> founded on the two principles he has given us:

>

> 1. Visnu aradhyate - pleasing Lord Visnu

>

> 2. Sarve sukhino bhavantu - making everyone happy in their service.

Madhava Gosh Prabhu, don't you want to add 'cow protection' point?

So that's some of my points, mataji. I hope that I didn't offend

you in my letter,

your servant,

Oleg 2.15 beta version.

January 13, 1999