Guest guest Posted December 11, 1998 Report Share Posted December 11, 1998 Respected Gunamani Mataji, Namonamaha. Jaya Srila Prabhupada! > Dear Prabhu. > Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. > >> According to my information Srila Prabhupada did ask two of his women > >> disciples to be GBC. I have no reason to doubt that. > >Neither I... But the facts of history... He did not appoint them. > >Simple. > Facts of history, he asked them. OK. > However when we see the accusations and harsh words put against Malati > Prabhu it is understandable that Srila Prabhupada accepted their desire > not to take up the challenge. Some men have indeed been very violent in > their attempts to keep power. Historical fact too. I fully agree with you that harsh words were indeed used against Malati Mataji & it is regrettable in view of the fact that she is sincerely endevoring to propagate the Krishna Consciousness movement. Both Bhakti Vikas Maharaj & myself (I speak/write for him at this time because we discussed this issue last month) appreciate that and feel that she is a very sincere soul. We do not approve of the any public denegration of her. No. Writing this, there is also a valid concern that for a lady (or if she was even a male) with a past such as her's, it might not be prudent for her to accept a leadership position. It might set the wrong precedent for society. The fact is that she did leave the path of Bhakti & engaged in certain reprehensible activities that we need not remember here, nay the should be forgotten in the sense that since she sincerely regrets those activities she has already distanced herself from them. But "others", & that means both devotees in the institution & those outside the institution may not fully understand that. Therefore the verse in Gita, "sa yat pramanam kurute" comes into effect, when we are talking about a leadership position. Hope you understand my point. I fully respect Malati Mataji & can state that I had found her most co-operative (in corresspondence we had about some ISKCON "work" earlier this year). Since she is working in full co-operation with ISKCON I hold her in high esteem. How can I prove my sincerity to you on this issue any more? Radhanath Maharaj knows who I am & what my activities are, and I am sure that Malati Mataji can check my bona fides with him anyday, if that is the question here. As Guru Krishna Prabhu has pointed out nicely in several texts he has posted in this discussion, our aim as an informal "think tank" was a concern for the direction of the movement. No a campaign to villify or demonize anyone - despite the fact that, as you rightly point out, certain contributors to the GHQ conference did appear to indulge in doing so. Some of it was just that they went a little overboard in their passionate zeal of idealism. Since we really don't know each other (many of us, that is) to be fully judgemental would be a mistake. If anyone wants to continue to harp on that - fine. It can be brought up to the ISKCON authorities, as Bhakti Vikas Maharaj had written & we all will accept their judgement. > Allthough for many years the quotes where Srila Prabhupada encourages both > men and women to give class have been there, the surroundings these women > have found themselves in have been very counterproductive to achieve this. You see, women ought to give classes, yes. But to other women. Why? Because, first of all Prabhupada also taught separation of the sexes in society as far as possible (which goes "against the grain" of western society). The "butter & fire" analogy is not unrelated here. Secondly, it was/is not a part of Vedic tradition or culture for ladies to lecture either publicly or to men. Ladies lecture privately to other ladies. Are there exceptions to this tradition & to Prabhupada's stated desire/outlook on separation of the sexes? Yes. Jahnava Mata. But exceptions remain just that. Exceptional. exceptional (îk-sèp¹she-nel) adjective 1. Being an exception; uncommon. 2. Well above average; extraordinary: an exceptional memory. See Usage Note at EXCEPTIONABLE. (From the American Heritage Dictionary) > A devotee is naturally humble, thats why others should encourage the > devotee to speak, if they want to make progress. What the women in ISKCON > needs today is encouragement. For so many years they have been told that > they were nothing worth, that they were simply maya and if they raise > their voice it was simply to attract the men. A compassionate father would > naturally not throw his welltrained and humble daughter into such > circumstances. However if the men behaved in a cultured and respectful > manner, seeing the women as mothers like Srila Prabhupada told them to, > there would be a place for them in all parts of the society. And this > would benefit the society greatly. Here you are perfectly correct & I agree with you in toto, in consonance with what I have written above. > > But why make it a rule? Especially when the role of ladies was one of > >shyness & the role of a manager is quite opposite - mixing with society > >freely. > I dont think that very many ladies would really go for that position. > Mostly we are shy, want to be protected and becomes easily hurt. Thats why > I think Grhastacouples would be a good idea, actually it is vedic is it > not? A king and a queen. Law and order but also compassion. > The seven mothers how and where are they today? Today everything IS upside down - at least according to the Vedic conception. Yes, the queen did assist the King; we have the example of Draupadi. But if you go deeply Mataji, you will see that the principle of separation of the sexes was in place during the Mahabharata times. > > All I say is that we should *strive* to shift our behavior to those > >standards. It *is* a gradual process. It should be volunatry. No > >force. > > >Understanding & implementation. For the good of society. Those were > >Prabhupada's recommendations. Like wearing a Sari or a Dhoti. > > >Why all the "hue & cry"; because we (not you subjectively Mataji, but > >society objectively) DO NOT WANT TO CHANGE. > > Those that you indicate do not want to change, might be the same ones who > have given their lifes to spread the teachings of Srila Prabhupada under > the most adverse difficult and lifethreathening circumstances. That may be true & they will be blessed by Prabhupada & Mahaprabhu for their sincere services. Of that I have no doubt. But anyone can deviate philosophically. I feel constrained by Raktambara Prabhu's instructions to not indulge in critizing a leader of ISKCON who recently gave up his sannyas vows & is in the process of marrying one of his ex-disciple's wife. The point is that spiritual life is like the razor's edge & we must all be careful at every moment to follow the path of vedic literatures, Gita & Bhagavatam. > Vedic standard is a king who will cut off his own flesh to simply save a > pigeon in his kingdom. So yes, gradual process. > The process for this age will save even the most fallen. > When the mood of godness increases, varnasrama-dharma or sanatana-dharma > will manifest. Good. Yes, it is hard to be a Maharaj Sibi... > "The degradation of the brahminical power started, when they stressed > birthright more than culture." > (S.B.1.18.33.Purp.) That's why I am endeavoring to point out Srila Prabhupada's teachings & vedic cultural standards & habits to my fellow mlecchas & yavanas (I being born in a beef-eating mleccha & yavana family in Chicago, USA...) No claim to any status of "birthright" here. dasanudas, Basu Ghosh Das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 1998 Report Share Posted December 11, 1998 > > > According to my information Srila Prabhupada did ask two of his women > > > disciples to be GBC. I have no reason to doubt that. > > > > Neither I... But the facts of history... He did not appoint them. > > Simple. > > He never used the internet, so as a strict advocate of only doing what he > did, you need to log off and stay off. You need to set the example so that we less intelligent souls can learn our lessons! Example is greater than precept, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 1998 Report Share Posted December 11, 1998 >But "others", & that means both devotees in the institution & those outside >the institution may not fully understand that. Therefore the verse in >Gita, >"sa yat pramanam kurute" comes into effect, when we are talking about a >leadership position. >Hope you understand my point. I fully respect Malati Mataji & can state >that I had found her most co-operative (in corresspondence we had about >some >ISKCON "work" earlier this year). Since she is working in full >co-operation >with ISKCON I hold her in high esteem. How can I prove my sincerity to you >on this issue any more? Radhanath Maharaj knows who I am & what my >activities are, and I am sure that Malati Mataji can check my bona fides >with him anyday, if that is the question here. Dear Prabhu. Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. I am simply a mother with four children, and my reason for taking part in this discussion have been my worry for the future of them and others in Srila Prabhupada`s movement and on this earth. I have heard your points with interest and would not dare to become somewhat even close to a judge on your or anybody elses personal life, since I am without a doubt not the person for it. I think it is good that these things are discussed openly and seen from different angles of vision. However I will withdraw for the moment, since I value human relations more than political ones. Offence are never eradicated by offence, but by appology and forgiveness. So kindly if you prabhu or anyone else have felt offended or disturbed by my words and thoughts, please forgive me. Your servant Gunamani d.d. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 1998 Report Share Posted December 11, 1998 Prabhupada: These are all imagination. When woman, when she is misguided, she becomes dangerous. There is no question of love. But one thing, according to Vedic conception life, that women and children are on the same level, so they should be given protection by men. In childhood the protection is from the father, in youthhood the protection is from the husband, and in old age the protection is from the grown-up sons. So they should never be given independence. They should be given protection, and their natural love for father or for husband or for children, then that propensity will grow very smoothly, and that will establish the relationship with woman and man very happy, and both of them will be able to execute their real function, spiritual life, by cooperation. The woman is known as his better half, so if she looks after the comfort of the man, a man is working and he is looking after the comfort, then both will be satisfied and their spiritual life will progress. Woman is meant for certain duties; man is meant for... Man is meant for hard working, and woman is meant for homely comfort, love. So both of them, if they are situated in their respective duties under proper training, then this combination of man and woman will help both of them to make progress in spiritual life. Prabhupada to Hayagriva in their discussions on philosophy. "Here is a difference between male and female that exists even in the higher statuses of life -- in fact, even between Lord Siva and his wife. Lord Siva could understand Citraketu very nicely, but Parvati could not. Thus even in the higher statuses of life there is a difference between the understanding of a male and that of a female. It may be clearly said that the understanding of a woman is always inferior to the understanding of a man. In the Western countries there is now agitation to the effect that man and woman should be considered equal, but from this verse it appears that woman is always less intelligent than man." (Srila Prabhupada in Srimad Bhagavatam SB 6:17:34-35, Purport) "But we have to pick up the order of the shastras. Tasmad shastra-vidhanokta As the shastra gives regulative, we have to accept that. And if we do not accept that, yah shastra-vidhim utsrjya vartate kama-karatah, if we do whimsically, then na siddhim avapnoti, you cannot get any perfection of life, na sukham, neither you’ll be happy." Srila Prabhupada on 27-9-76 at Vrindavan in a lecture on SB 1.7.32-33. "So those who are not following the authorized instructions, they are simply creating disturbance, and by such process one cannot be happy, neither perfect, and what to speak of going back to home, back to Godhead? We do not therefore accept anything which is not authorized by the disciplic succession. We reject immediately. There is example that in India there is a tree, sagu, sagu(?) tree. I do not know whether it is in your country. That, that tree has a very, I mean to say, thick trunk. But a little jerking, it will break. A little jerking. Sagu. And there is another tree which is called tamarind tree. So even a fingerlike stem, you cannot break. It is so strong. So our policy should be that when we are falling down, we must take shelter of this tamarind tree, not that sagu tree. The tamarind tree is Vedic instruction, infallible, without any mistake. As I have given you several times the example that Vedas says that stool of animal is impure, and in another place it says that stool of cow is pure." Srila Prabhupada From a lecture on SB 2.3.24 at Los Angeles on 22-6-72. Similarly, a devotee, an unflinching devotee, without any other desires, who is dedicated to the service of the Lord, he is Sadhu. So we have to take shelter of such Sadhu. Adau gurv-ashrayam. And Sadhu will instruct you. Not by whims, but through Shastra. He is Sadhu. Sadhu will never speak to you anything which is not in the Shastra. Sadhu, Shastra, and guru. And guru is bona fide spiritual master who follows Sadhu and Shastra. Who follows his bona fide spiritual master and who follows the instructions of Shastra, he is guru. Sadhu-Shastra-guru-vakya, tinete kariya aikya. Narottama dasa Thakura says that you have to act by accommodating the instruction of Sadhu, instruction of Shastra. And you have to distribute. Because Caitanya Mahaprabhu says that these ignorant people who are being defeated repeatedly, such persons, they are being entangled in this materialistic way of life, in this material world. Krishna bhuliya jiva. He said, Krishna bhuli' sei jiva anadi -bahirmukha. Anyone who has forgotten Krishna, he is anadi bahir mukha. He is enamored by this external energy, material world. Just like in Bombay city everyone is working hard, very hard. Their mission is, "How I shall be able to construct a skyscraper building." That's all. Why they are working so hard? Their mission is that I must have a skyscraper house and good apartment and nice wife, nice children and bank balance, then happy. (chuckles) But he does not know how long these things will continue. Ten years, twenty years, fifty years, hundred years, then finished. Your skyscraper building, your nice wife, your apartment, your friends, everything that you have made(?), you do not know where you are going. That you do not know. There is risk. Yam yam vapi smaran loke tyajaty, at the time of death everything will be examined. What are you going to be next? You have to accept another body. So that body will be created in this life. Yam yam vapi and that bodily structure will be formed at the time of your death. Just like if you leave this apartment, you'll have to go another apartment. So you have to select another apartment, good or bad. That will depend on your capacity, how much rent you are able to pay. Then you leave this apartment. Similarly, at the time of death by the superior arrangement, another apartment will be given to you, and immediately that is settled up, you leave this body and enter into that body. Daiva-netrena, karmana daiva-netrena. That will be considered by your work. If your works are nice... That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita... Srila Prabhupada in a Lecture on TLC at Bombay 17-3-71. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 1998 Report Share Posted December 11, 1998 > Offence are never eradicated by offence, but by appology and forgiveness. > So kindly if you prabhu or anyone else have felt offended or disturbed by > my words and thoughts, please forgive me. > Your servant Gunamani d.d. You also please kindly excuse me for any offences I might have committed to you. It was not my intention. And believe me, I too am here for the discussion & not for politics. Again I thank you very much for your sincere inquiries and the humble tone in which you have so kindly & thoughtfully adopted in your corresspondence. You have set an important example here which is highly appreciated. dasanudas, Basu Ghosh Das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 1998 Report Share Posted December 12, 1998 WWW: Bhuta-bhavana (Dasa) ACBSP (Incline Village NV - USA) wrote: > [Text 1924978 from COM] > > On 10 Dec 1998, Madhava Gosh wrote: > > > > > He never used the internet, so as a strict advocate of only doing what he > did, > > you need to log off and stay off. > > > That is SO immature and ILLOGICAL, I don't know why I waste bandwidth > responding. Since you CANNOT defeat Jivan Mukta or Sita with guru, sadhu or > shastra, you simply say SHUT-UP. What a farce. Excuse. I don't say shut up. I say be consistent. Either apply the logic that Srila Prabhupada didn't do it it therefore it shouldn't be done in all cases, or else acknowledge that the GHQers themselves are doing things that Srila Prabhupada idn't do. Illogical is to state in a medium Srila Prabhupada didn't use that we shouldn't do what Srila Prabhupada didn't do. As far as being SO immature, here is some immaturity. I'm rubber, you're glue Bounce off me, stick to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 1998 Report Share Posted December 12, 1998 > > > You see, women ought to give classes, yes. But to other women. Why? > Because, first of all Prabhupada also taught separation of the sexes in > society as far as possible (which goes "against the grain" of western > society). The "butter & fire" analogy is not unrelated here. " I do not know why these things inventions are going on. That is our only business, to invent something new program? We have already got our Vaisnava standard. That is sufficient for Madhvacarya, Ramanujacarya, it was sufficient for Lord Caitanya, six Goswamis, for Bhaktivinoda Thakura, for my Guru Maharaja Bhaktisidhanta Sarasvati, for me, for all big, big saints and acaryas in our line-why it shall be inadequate for my disciples so they must manufacture something? That is not possible. Who has introduced these things, that women cannot have chanting japa in the temple, they cannot perform the arati and so many things? If they become agitated, then let the brahmacaries go to the forest, I have never introduced these things. If the brahmacaries cannot remain in the presence of women in the temple, then they may go to the forest, not remaining in New York City, because in New York there are so many women, so how they can avoid seeing? Best thing is to go to the forrest for not seeing any women, if they become so easily agitated, but then no one will either see them and how our preaching work will go on?" (SPL to Ekayani, 3rd december, 1972) > > > Secondly, it was/is not a part of Vedic tradition or culture for ladies to > lecture either publicly or to men. Ladies lecture privately to other > ladies. "So far as girls or boys lecturing in the morning, that doesn`t make anydifference. Either girl or boy devotees may deliver lecture if they choose to do. We have no such distinction of bodily designations, male or female. Krsna consciousness is on the spiritual platform. As such anyone who is a devotee of the Lord, following in this line of disciplic succession, can deliver lecture on the teachings of Bhagavad Gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, etc." (SPL to Syama dasi, 21st October, 1968) > So once again you are correcting Srila Prabhupada? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 1998 Report Share Posted December 12, 1998 > As far as being SO immature, here is some immaturity. > > I'm rubber, you're glue > Bounce off me, stick to you. \o/ \o/ \o/ o __#__ o __#__ o __#__ /#\ /#\ /#\ _II_ _II_ _II_ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 1998 Report Share Posted December 12, 1998 > So once again you are correcting Srila Prabhupada? Or is it you - time & again?! "Unnecessary association with women, even with one’s mother, sister or daughter, is strictly prohibited. This is human civilization. A civilization that allows men to mix unrestrictedly with women is an animal civilization. **In Kali-yuga, people are extremely liberal**, but mixing with women and talking with them as equals actually constitutes an uncivilized way of life." (Srila Prabhupada in SB 7.12.18 Purport) "**" Supplied by me. "Because modern society sanctions unrestricted mixing of men and women, its citizens cannot possibly achieve peace; rather, the regulation of conflict becomes the basis of social survival. This is the symptom of an ignorant society falsely accepting the material body as the highest good, as described here by the words vishayeshu gunadhyasat." (H.H. Hridayananda Maharaj in the Purport of SB 11.21.19) (Who said he was pro-feminist?) "To understand Brahman is not the business of tiny brain. Alpha-medhasam. There are two Sanskrit words, alpa-medhasa and su-medhasa. Alpa-medhasa means having little brain substance. Physiologically, within the brain there are brain substance. It is found that the brain substance in man is found up to 64 ounce. They are very highly intellectual persons. And in woman the brain substance is not found more than 34 ounce. You’ll find, therefore, that there is no very great scientist, mathematician, philosopher, among women. You’ll never find because their brain substance cannot go. Artificially do not try to become equal with men. That is not allowed in the Vedic shastra. Na striyah svatantratam arhati. That is called shastra." Srila Prabhupada (not Basu Ghosh there Madhava...) in a lecture on Gita 16.7 (read the purport sometime, MGP...) at Hawaii on Feb 3, 1975. Now, let's review to my words that you quoted in the last text... > You see, women ought to give classes, yes. But to other women. Why? > Because, first of all Prabhupada also taught separation of the sexes in > society as far as possible (which goes "against the grain" of western > society). The "butter & fire" analogy is not unrelated here. > Secondly, it was/is not a part of Vedic tradition or culture for ladies to > lecture either publicly or to men. Ladies lecture privately to other > ladies. I suggest YOU stop the twisting & start the understanding... But from the way this discussion is going... highly unlikely. Anyway, I keep hoping against hope. Liberalananda Maharaj ki jaya!!! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 1998 Report Share Posted December 12, 1998 To Basu Ghosh Again I don't understand it in which context you are quoting all that quotes. I don't see this quotes to be contradictory with anything I wrote you till now, and you are citing them to me with the desire: "Kindly note/understand" What?? Dear Prabhu, really no need to waste your valuable time (which is not even your nor mine), to answer my letters, especcially if you didn't read them! At least to me it appears so by sending me this kilometers of quotes with the desire to pruve me something with what I never dissagreed: > Kindly note that **Srila Prabhupada** not Basu Ghosh Das, GHQ, XYZ, ABC or > whomsover, clearly says that "women are meant for certain duties". >.... respectively with your long quotes ..... ...... > Woman is meant for certain duties; man > is meant for... Man is meant for hard working, and woman is meant for > homely comfort, love. My duties since I fellt into Iskcon are hard fisicaly and mentaly and are the best to build my spiritual intelligence, as told to me by my Master. Before joining Iskcon I never performed so "non vedic" dharma for a "woman". My duties were and now are hard, and probably they will be so for at least some good period of future and where were the "hard working men", where are they now and where they will be in that good period of future-? I don't know and I don't bother eader about them- I have what to do and there is also much nectar around me so I don't need to waste time on you and those similar to you. If I would write you more about this "hard"/makes "harsh" jobs that I got in Iskcon, than it would look as I would complain about it and that would not be truth, because I love/d all the services and the responsibility I got from my Guru and my authorities, and it pleases them. Srila Prabhupada really blessed me by giving me the possibility to serve his mission under my authorities in *that* way - non vedic after ypur purporting. And Srila Prabhupada thanked me personally for doing so, you may belive it or not. And once again I have no problem with your quotes AS THEY ARE and not "As you would like them to be". So there is no use that you quote to me personally any more with that spirit, because I have strong immun system agains it, this kind of quotationing can not touch my heart, or stone, however you like. I respect your "mood", but I live it aside without desire to touch it any more too. Please accept my renouncing you. As gran/father says: Even in the spiritual world gives parties, what to speak of the world manipulated by the tree modes of nature. I enjoy cooking, I enjoy washing clothes, I enjoy beeing at home in the temple and singing devotional songs while cleaning(especially when outside is -15), I love make myself nicly dressed in a colourfull sari rather than in cold jeens, I love to not have to worry if we will get it together to pay a rent for the temple, I love to be protected and taken care of rather than to show around like a "man"............................... I love it, I love it, I love it ...................... but my Guru doesn't alow me doesn't alow me doesn't alow me to retire unther the excuse of beeing vedic Even when I begg him in the times when womenly weakness owerpowers me But he kindly puls my mind together and I follow him in a way he wants it from me, because Srila Prabhupada aprooved it to me to do so, and because I know that he wants me to come to Krsna prema and that is for me my dharma. And if I would get vedic in your way, and get merried and accept a "comfortable homely life", we would have to close down the temple here in Berlin, because our big, big,"men" (just big big mouth) misteriously dissappiared when the difficult time visited us a few years ago, (the only *men* who stayed are: my Guru Maharaja and Srila Prabhupada tempel presidents wife and my godsister.) Please note: Kindly note "Prabhu" - I have no problem with this scenario, it is just a foto for your info, about my dharma given to me by my Trinity mentioned to you abowe. With all respects to you and your quotes. And you don't have to wory that much about myself, I ashure you that I am in the best hands, and life showed me too what my dharma is. - First not to follow the blind uncle ideed, while Krsna provided me a father and grandfather with healty eyes. **Please kindly don't write to me any more** because you have nothing sane to say, even if you try to hide your limited understanding behind the quotes of your Master. That was my last non vedic touch to you mio Maestro Superiore Just leave me a prostitue, why you bother that much? I am paid by my Masters much more than I deserve it for my job. And how about you, your job, your healt? If you are in need, I can help you, but please don't try to convert me. I don't like to fight with Jehova witnesses, I prefer to go to another street, although they are so much into converting me with their quotations of truths of the ultimate day and my duty. I respect them, but they have their mission and I got mine by my Prabhu. I would give you advice for your next time quotationinginginging: As my Guruji told me:"People don't by books (or *quotes* that you didn't digested), they buy you, your personality - *as you are* made by Krsna, that is what is atractive." And not as you *think* you *should * be for Krsna. Dharma, artha and kama they have enough, but Krsna they don't have. I tryed it out and it really works! Books go out like anything. People don't say anymore:Buu, log off, close the shop, go home with your books and "quotes". Prabhuji, please try to understand, no taste in you an your world-view, so I hope this time you understand me and the next time when I go into conference, I'll not see a quotes from you for me "so kindly". Thank you. Hare Krsna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 1998 Report Share Posted December 12, 1998 Basu Ghosh prabhu wrote: > > So once again you are correcting Srila Prabhupada? > > Or is it you - time & again?! > > "Unnecessary association with women, even with one’s mother, sister or > daughter, is strictly prohibited. This is human civilization. A > civilization that allows men to mix unrestrictedly with women is an animal > civilization. **In Kali-yuga, people are extremely liberal**, but mixing > with women and talking with them as equals actually constitutes an > uncivilized way of life." (Srila Prabhupada in SB 7.12.18 Purport) Srila Prabhupada did **NOT** categorized ladies and men performance of spiritual activities together in the temple room (chanting, listening to the classes, *lecturing*, discussing..) to be the **extreme liberalism** or **unrestricted mixing**. The point brought up by Madhava Gosh prabhu is very, very clear and simple. You are correcting Srila Prabhupada on this obvious point, and in response you simply counteract by merely saying (and supplying an irrelevant quote), "Not me, but you." This tactic you use all the time, as I've noticed it. Sorry to make you upset again, but it is the way the stubborn children act. No matter what you say to them, they simply shoot back, without much deeper consideration, "Aha, aha, not me but you, tralalalala, tralalala..." Please supply the clear evidence from Srila Prabhupada that will support you claim that the performance of the mentioned spiritual activities are considered to be the form of extreme liberalism and unrestricted mixing of women and men.On the other hand, we have seen the obvious statements by Prabhupada that speak directly against your claim. If you can't then please be quiet on this point and stop accusing others for your blunder that you did. > I suggest YOU stop the twisting & start the understanding... > > But from the way this discussion is going... highly unlikely. *Hopeless, hopeless*... not just "highly unlikely". That you will be able to so easily dismiss ("correct") Srila Prabhupada's clear approval of women and men being together in the temple, performing the mentioned activities. Well, you may try. But none here is to be that easily fooled by your rhetoric and by using the quotes on the way a jongleur would use his balls, throwing them up and down, here and there so that one doesn't know where is what and which is which. ys mnd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 1998 Report Share Posted December 12, 1998 COM: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN) wrote: > [Text 1929397 from COM] > > > So once again you are correcting Srila Prabhupada? > > Or is it you - time & again?! > > "Unnecessary association with women, even with one’s mother, sister or > daughter, is strictly prohibited. This is human civilization. A civilization > that allows men to mix unrestrictedly with women is an animal civilization. > **In Kali-yuga, people are extremely liberal**, but mixing with women and > talking with them as equals actually constitutes an uncivilized way of > life." (Srila Prabhupada in SB 7.12.18 Purport) You have miscited the reference here. It is actually verse 8. here it is in it's entireity. "TRANSLATION If the wife of the spiritual master is young, a young brahmacäré should not allow her to care for his hair, massage his body with oil, or bathe him with affection like a mother. PURPORT The relationship between the student or disciple and the wife of the spiritual master or teacher is like that between son and mother. A mother sometimes cares for her son by combing his hair, massaging his body with oil, or bathing him. Similarly, the wife of the teacher is also a mother (guru-patné), and therefore she may also care for the disciple in a motherly way. If the wife of the teacher is a young woman, however, a young brahmacäré should not allow such a mother to touch him. This is strictly prohibited. There are seven kinds of mothers: ätma-mätä guroù patné brähmaëé räja-patnikä dhenur dhätré tathä påthvé saptaitä mätaraù småtäù These mothers are the original mother, the wife of the teacher or spiritual master, the wife of a brähmaëa, the king’s wife, the cow, the nurse and the earth. Unnecessary association with women, even with one’s mother, sister or daughter, is strictly prohibited. This is human civilization. A civilization that allows men to mix unrestrictedly with women is an animal civilization. In Kali-yuga, people are extremely liberal, but mixing with women and talking with them as equals actually constitutes an uncivilized way of life." So I certainly agree with the point of the verse that the wife of the guru shouldn't be massaging his brahmacaries, which is the main and direct point. Such mixing is uncivilised. As for indirect points, this supports that women should be involved, as in civilised society the guru and the king have wifes. In the emergency situation that we have been operating under for the last 20 years, the unbalanced male energy has lead to situations of abuse. This needs to be balanced by the presence of women in leading roles in the institution, just like it always has been in civilised society. Also, to speak to women like they are equals is uncivilised, they are to be respected as one would respect one's own mother. Of course, in the Western society, the mother has not been respected so it is understandable that Western born devotees would not be able to understand what it is to respect their mothers. Women not not be talked to unrestrictedly. Interacting in a capacity in an institution is not unrestricted, it is bound by the protocols of the position. > > > "**" Supplied by me. Yes, we understand that you empahasis things without reference to the larger context. > > > "Because modern society sanctions unrestricted mixing of men and women, its > citizens cannot possibly achieve peace; rather, the regulation of conflict > becomes the basis of social survival. This is the symptom of an ignorant > society falsely accepting the material body as the highest good, as > described here by the words vishayeshu gunadhyasat." > > (H.H. Hridayananda Maharaj in the Purport of SB 11.21.19) (Who said he was > pro-feminist?) Only the GHOers have made that claim. I am glad that you are starting to realise that it is possible to support women in management and not be a feminist. To protect women, there definitely needs to be restrictions. No one has ever argued there shouldn't be. It is simply a GHQ straw man argument. > > > "To understand Brahman is not the business of tiny brain. Alpha-medhasam. > There are two Sanskrit words, alpa-medhasa and su-medhasa. Alpa-medhasa > means having little brain substance. Physiologically, within the brain there > are brain substance. It is found that the brain substance in man is found up > to 64 ounce. They are very highly intellectual persons. And in woman the > brain substance is not found more than 34 ounce. You’ll find, therefore, > that there is no very great scientist, mathematician, philosopher, among > women. You’ll never find because their brain substance cannot go. > Artificially do not try to become equal with men. That is not allowed in the > Vedic shastra. Na striyah svatantratam arhati. That is called shastra." > > Srila Prabhupada (not Basu Ghosh there Madhava...) in a lecture on Gita 16.7 > (read the purport sometime, MGP...) at Hawaii on Feb 3, 1975. > Therefore çästra says, acintyäù khalu ye bhävä na täàs tarkeëa yojayet. Acintya, which is inconceivable, beyond your sense perception, don’t try to argue and understand it and speculate. This is foolishness. It is not possible. Therefore we have to go to the guru. Tad-vijïänärthaà sa gurum eväbhigacchet, samit-päëiù çrotriyaà brahma-niñöham [MU 1.2.12]. This is the process. But the demons, they do not know, this process. They speculate; they manufacture. Simply by jugglery of words they manufacture their truth. Also from the same lecture. SB lecture 8-3-68 So far spiritual life is concerned, it does not depend on the material brain substance. It is different thing. It is spiritual platform. It has nothing to do with this bodily construction. You must remember. We don’t make any distinction that a man can be better Krsna consciousness than woman. No. A woman can be better Krsna consciousness because they are very simple. They can accept any religious system. Generally the women, they accept it because they are very simple. They have no crooked mind Srila Prabhupada (not Madhava Gosh there Basu...) > Now, let's review to my words that you quoted in the last text... > > > You see, women ought to give classes, yes. But to other women. Why? > > Because, first of all Prabhupada also taught separation of the sexes in > > society as far as possible (which goes "against the grain" of western > > society). The "butter & fire" analogy is not unrelated here. > > > Secondly, it was/is not a part of Vedic tradition or culture for ladies to > > lecture either publicly or to men. Ladies lecture privately to other > > ladies. > > I suggest YOU stop the twisting & start the understanding... What twisting did I do? I simply quoted Srila Prabhupada where he says women can give classes and be be in the temple and that if the brahmacaries are agitated they can go to the forest. How is that twisting? You say women can't give classes, Srila Prabhupada says they can, if accepting Srila Prabhupada's understanding over yours is twisting, well, then, "Twist and shout!". " I do not know why these things inventions are going on. That is our only business, to invent something new program? We have already got our Vaisnava standard. That is sufficient for Madhvacarya, Ramanujacarya, it was sufficient for Lord Caitanya, six Goswamis, for Bhaktivinoda Thakura, for my Guru Maharaja Bhaktisidhanta Sarasvati, for me, for all big, big saints and acaryas in our line-why it shall be inadequate for my disciples so they must manufacture something? That is not possible. Who has introduced these things, that women cannot have chanting japa in the temple, they cannot perform the arati and so many things? If they become agitated, then let the brahmacaries go to the forest, I have never introduced these things. If the brahmacaries cannot remain in the presence of women in the temple, then they may go to the forest, not remaining in New York City, because in New York there are so many women, so how they can avoid seeing? Best thing is to go to the forrest for not seeing any women, if they become so easily agitated, but then no one will either see them and how our preaching work will go on?" (SPL to Ekayani, 3rd december, 1972) > > > Secondly, it was/is not a part of Vedic tradition or culture for ladies to > lecture either publicly or to men. Ladies lecture privately to other > ladies. "So far as girls or boys lecturing in the morning, that doesn`t make anydifference. Either girl or boy devotees may deliver lecture if they choose to do. We have no such distinction of bodily designations, male or female. Krsna consciousness is on the spiritual platform. As such anyone who is a devotee of the Lord, following in this line of disciplic succession, can deliver lecture on the teachings of Bhagavad Gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, etc." (SPL to Syama dasi, 21st October, 1968) > > > But from the way this discussion is going... highly unlikely. > > Anyway, I keep hoping against hope. > > Liberalananda Maharaj ki jaya!!! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 1998 Report Share Posted December 12, 1998 > > > Kindly note that **Srila Prabhupada** not Basu Ghosh Das, GHQ, XYZ, ABC > > or whomsover, clearly says that "women are meant for certain duties". Hemalata Thakurani dd wrote: > > Kindly note that **Srila Prabhupada** not Basu Ghosh Das, GHQ, XYZ, ABC > > or whomsover, clearly says that "women are meant for certain duties". > >.... > respectively with your long quotes ..... > ..... > > Woman is meant for certain duties; man > > is meant for... Man is meant for hard working, and woman is meant for > > homely comfort, love. What Basu Ghosh refuses to accept is Srila Prabhupada who himself clearly states "IT IS A NEW THING IN THE HISTORY OF SANKIRATANA MOVEMENT". It is SRILA PRABHUPADA (I have to use the capitals, for Basu Ghosh who loves to capitalize Srila Prabhupada's name as the one he says to adore to wholeheartedly) who did it, and who tells himself what he did: "In India all the acaryas and their descendents later on acted only from the men's side. Their wifes were at home because that is the system from old times that women are not required to go out. But in Bhagavad-Gita we find that women are equally competent like the men in the matter of Krsna Consciousness movement." But Basu Ghosh insists to ignore. Basu Ghosh insists to "implement" his own model of the life style (having illiterate wife that is at home for his "homely comfort, love") on the rest of the world. There is nothing wrong in his personal choice of the life style in KC, but it is all wrong to ignore Srila Prabhupada's "new thing in the history of sankiratna movement" and go on correcting him (Srila Prabhupada). I got to know that there is the proposal (that is most likely to be accepted) to name the Sampradaya by adding Prabhupada's name: Brahma-Madhva-Gaudhiya-Bhaktivedanta sampradaya. Because Srila Prabhupada did implement "NEW THING IN THE HISTORY OF SANKIRATANA MOVEMENT" (not only concerning the women, of course but men as well). According to Basu Ghosh, apparently, Srila Prabhupada was - wrong. Ironically, that part of the NEW THING IN THE HISTORY, the one that refers to us, Westerners Kali-yuga mellechas *men* that according to "Hindu dharma" and the Manu Smriti would not be allowed to even touch Bhagavata Purana, what to speak of everything else, that part Basu Ghosh does not mind. Only when it comes to women. > My duties since I fellt into Iskcon are hard fisicaly and mentaly and are > the best to build my spiritual intelligence, as told to me by my Master. > Before joining Iskcon I never performed so "non vedic" dharma for a > "woman". My duties were and now are hard, and probably they will be so for > at least some good period of future and where were the "hard working men", > where are they now and where they will be in that good period of future-? > I don't know and I don't bother eader about them- I have what to do and > there is also much nectar around me so I don't need to waste time on you > and those similar to you. .... the continuation of the quote (the letter to his *lady* disciple): "Please therefore carry on these missionary activites, and prove it by practical example that there is no bar for anyone in the matter of preaching work for Krsna Konsciousness." My comment: I think you are fully correct in your assertation that you got no need to waste time on those persons who pretend to be more wise than Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada is clear in his instrunctions, no matter how much some "adorents of Prbhupada's philosophy and teachings" will try to "smoke" them over with their "kindly note that **Srila Prabhupada** says..." Yes, he said *both* things, and he left us *both* alternatives. But some will never accept, never agree. Nothing to do about. ys mnd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 1998 Report Share Posted December 12, 1998 Mataji, Namonamaha. Jaya Srila Prabhupada! You wrote me & I'm sorry that it's been quite some days now...; > I just wanted to make some points on your very nice letter. Just to > clarify some misunderstanding I have towards some of the issues you've > addressed here. > > > For your kind information & the information of other sincere devotees > > reading the postings in this conference (who's hearts are free from > > malice, envy, etc.) both Bhakti Vikas Maharaj & I were discussing > > possible common ground between our views & those of Malati Mataji (who I > > believe is doing very sincere service to ISKCON & Srila Prabhupada), > > etc., when a shameless immoral coward, using the alias "Ardhabuddhi das" > > sent the GHQ texts to VNN. > > Why is "Ardhabuddhi das" shameless immoral coward? He just provided > informations. This issue was to big and to important to stay hidden from > devotees. We cannot hide problems within ISKCON, from rtviks or envious > people. We have to face them. And to say you were just "fixing" the > problem, is not a excuse. This problem should not be there at the first > place. I agree with your statement. But his is Kali yuga & lady devotees are now struggling for equality with men against Srila Prabhupada's instructions: Srila Prabhupada in a Lecture on TLC at Bombay 17-3-71. Prabhupada: "These are all imagination. When woman, when she is misguided, she becomes dangerous. There is no question of love. But one thing, according to Vedic conception life, that women and children are on the same level, so they should be given protection by men. In childhood the protection is from the father, in youthhood the protection is from the husband, and in old age the protection is from the grown-up sons. So they should never be given independence. They should be given protection, and their natural love for father or for husband or for children, then that propensity will grow very smoothly, and that will establish the relationship with woman and man very happy, and both of them will be able to execute their real function, spiritual life, by cooperation. The woman is known as his better half, so if she looks after the comfort of the man, a man is working and he is looking after the comfort, then both will be satisfied and their spiritual life will progress. Woman is meant for certain duties; man is meant for... Man is meant for hard working, and woman is meant for homely comfort, love. So both of them, if they are situated in their respective duties under proper training, then this combination of man and woman will help both of them to make progress in spiritual life." > > Earlier *I* had written that women CAN be gurus! But of other women. > > And managers - like Malati Mataji & Laxmimoni Mataji. > > I completely agree with you. It should be our goal to create daiva > varnasrama in our society. We desperately need social structure. Because > lack of above mentioned, we have so many problems. We expect from devotees > to behave like they're properly situated but everything around them is in > havoc. In the similar way, you cannot expect from female devotees to meet > vedic standard when nothing around encourage them. Very often, ladies are > more qualified than man (due to influence of kali-yuga), they're asked to > do men job(like collecting), rarely can find person ready and qualified to > protect them, and it is natural that you cannot surrender and submit > yourself to somebody materially and spiritually inferior than yourself. Am > I wrong? Person with healthy eyes will never ask blind man to show him the > way or seriously consider his description of the Michelangelo's paintings. Mataji, you must have heard of a famous Vedic literature named, "Valmiki Ramayana". Yes? There it is written (in a conversation between Anasuya Mata, the wife of Atri Muni and Sita devi, the incarnation of Mahalakshmi, the eternal consort of Lord Vishnu in the Ayodhya Kanda, Chapter 117, Verses 23/24) "Worlds that are attended with great prosperity await those women to whom their husband is dear, no matter whether he lives in a city or in a forest, whether he is propitious or adverse. In the eyes of women who are blessed with a noble dispositon the husband is the highest deity, no matter whether he is ill-mannered or licentious or entirely devoid of riches.... Those evil women, however, whose hearts are swayed by desire, who lord it over their husband, having no sense of virtue and vice, and move about at will , do not follow him in the aforesaid manner. Indeed, fallen a prey to concupiscence, women who belong to that category, O Sita, meet with a fall from virtue and also reap infamy. (26/27) > I don't agree that ladies should be stopped giving classes or leading > kirtanas. If they're qualified there should be no obstacles, except > natural shyness. That shyness would naturally lead them to give classes for other ladies. Remember there is butter & fire - for householders or sannyasis... > I don't see anything wrong in appointing mataji Malati as GBC. She has all > qualifications. She has intelligence, managerial skills, ability to that > service, even she is in a woman body, this life time. And you cannot > expect people to be perfect or pure in everything they did in this > lifetime. Most of the devotees, especially coming from west, came to KC > doing all kind off nonsense(just the fact that 99.9% of us ate meat of > Mother Cow, is enough), and due to shaky history of our > movement(questionable leaders etc) some of us did nonsense even in KC (in > this particular case it was done for Krishna, I believe), so if we want to > judge people that way, than who is really qualified? Very, very few. But > we have to manage somehow, so if someone is qualified now, accept it, use > it, don't throw it away. It's rare and precious. Kindly consider: (Bhagavad-gita 3.21) yad yad acarati shreshthas tat tad evetaro janah sa yat pramatma kurute lokas tad anuvartate SYNONYMS yat yat—whatever; acarati—he does; shresthaha—a respectable leader; tat—that; tat—and that alone; eva—certainly; itarah—common; janah—person; sah—he; yat—whichever; pramanam—example; kurute—does perform; lokah—all the world; tat—that; anuvartate—follows in the footsteps. TRANSLATION Whatever action a great man performs, common men follow. And whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world pursues. *In vedic civilization ladies never took leadership roles.* > We need to create proper environment for both man and ladies. But we > cannot, in the name of it, lock ladies in the... somewhere, " don't even > know where, don't have facilities yet", and not allow them to preach. And > on the other side encourage man, like they're all automatically fitting > vedic description of a man. And that's whats happening. Sorry, Mataji, but I think you misunderstand the situation. For the *welfare of all*, as Prabhupada has clearly instructed *women have certain duties*. Of course, so do men. But why should women try & imitate the activities of the men. Prabhupada said it is artificial. Consider these statements of Srila Prabhupada (& Hridayananda Maharaj): "Unnecessary association with women, even with one’s mother, sister or daughter, is strictly prohibited. This is human civilization. A civilization that allows men to mix unrestrictedly with women is an animal civilization. **In Kali-yuga, people are extremely liberal**, but mixing with women and talking with them as equals actually constitutes an uncivilized way of life." (Srila Prabhupada in SB 7.12.18 Purport) "**" Supplied by me. "Because modern society sanctions unrestricted mixing of men and women, its citizens cannot possibly achieve peace; rather, the regulation of conflict becomes the basis of social survival. This is the symptom of an ignorant society falsely accepting the material body as the highest good, as described here by the words vishayeshu gunadhyasat." (H.H. Hridayananda Maharaj in the Purport of SB 11.21.19) (Who said he was pro-feminist?) "To understand Brahman is not the business of tiny brain. Alpha-medhasam. There are two Sanskrit words, alpa-medhasa and su-medhasa. Alpa-medhasa means having little brain substance. Physiologically, within the brain there are brain substance. It is found that the brain substance in man is found up to 64 ounce. They are very highly intellectual persons. And in woman the brain substance is not found more than 34 ounce. You’ll find, therefore, that there is no very great scientist, mathematician, philosopher, among women. You’ll never find because their brain substance cannot go. Artificially do not try to become equal with men. That is not allowed in the Vedic shastra. Na striyah svatantratam arhati. That is called shastra." > I used your letter to comment other things I found connected with the > subject. Hope I didn't offend you in any way, I had no such intentions. I > respect you and appreciate your experience very much. Mataji, I am a rascal. Of this there is no doubt or argument. My intention is not to belittle ladies. But the sincere ladies in the movement should try & understand what, as Srila Prabhupada said above are "the duties of women". That's all. This doesn't mean that men have no duties. Men have MORE responsibilities. One of them is the protection of women. So we agree that women MUST be protected. But how? If you or anyone, feels that women should be independent so as to look after their own welfare... Srila Prabhupada disagrees. "Artificially do not try to become equal with men." The statement is a clear as the sky is blue. But "In Kali-yuga, people are extremely liberal". Their voices (for women's independence & equality) are loud & clear & *BEFUDDLED*, here on these conferences. I offer them my respectful obeisances - from a great distance! May Lord Krishna bless them & bless us all! Hare Krishna! dasanudas, Basu Ghosh Das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 1998 Report Share Posted December 12, 1998 At 8:50 -0800 12/12/98, COM: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN) wrote: > >*In vedic civilization ladies never took leadership roles.* True, and in vedic times they did not go out unprotected on book distribution, were not given brahmana initiation, did not live in brahmacarini asramas etc. etc. Aren't we fortunate to be in the soon-to-be-renamed Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya-Bhaktivedanta sampradaya. Prabhupada was a revolutionary who introduced never before seen opportunities for his spiritual daughters *and* sons - many of whom were of lower than sudra birth and who would certainly never have been given this extraordinary mercy in vedic times. So if you want to introduce the "good old days" for women, please think seriously about what the implications would be for yourself and other western born meat-eating men. Jaya Srila Prabhupada! He empowered all his spiritual children and gave them the opportunity to use all of their skills and talents in the service of Guru and Krsna, without discriminating on the basis of country of origin, birth culture or gender! He is indeed the most merciful and no quote wars will change that fact. Ys, Madhusudani dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 1998 Report Share Posted December 12, 1998 On 12 Dec 1998, Madhusudani Radha wrote: > At 8:50 -0800 12/12/98, COM: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN) wrote: > > > >*In vedic civilization ladies never took leadership roles.* > > True, and in vedic times they did not go out unprotected on book > distribution, were not given brahmana initiation, did not live in > brahmacarini asramas etc. etc. > > I don't mean to be doing the emporer has not clothes trip, but last I checked, we weren't living in Vedic times. We can always pretend we are, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 1998 Report Share Posted December 12, 1998 > You say women can't >give classes, Srila Prabhupada says they can, if accepting Srila >Prabhupada's > understanding over yours is twisting, well, then, "Twist and shout!". :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 1998 Report Share Posted December 12, 1998 WWW: Sthita-dhi-muni (Dasa) SDG (Alachua FL - USA) wrote: > [Text 1930500 from COM] > > On 12 Dec 1998, Madhusudani Radha wrote: > > > At 8:50 -0800 12/12/98, COM: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN) wrote: > > > > > >*In vedic civilization ladies never took leadership roles.* > > > > True, and in vedic times they did not go out unprotected on book > > distribution, were not given brahmana initiation, did not live in > > brahmacarini asramas etc. etc. > > > > > > I don't mean to be doing the emporer has not clothes trip, but last I checked, > we weren't living in Vedic times. We can always pretend we are, though. LOLSB 1.3.21 purport "Vedic language and the subject matter are very difficult for ordinary men. They are understood by the highly intelligent and self-realized brähmaëas. But the present age of Kali is full of ignorant men. Even those who are born by a brähmana father are, in the present age, no better than the südras or the women." A lot of the blah blah blah we have heard is about previous yugas when, among other things, people lived 1000 years or even more. In the Kali yuga, if we accept Srila Prabhupada's vision of the Vedas, some of the men are equal to the women. Of course,, many were born as mlecchas or yavannas, and can aspire at best to be sudras, which will equate them with women. So how VAD will manifest in this age, especially this urban oriented phase of it, is not accessible by historical study of previous yugas. Principles can be seen, but particular manifestations may be less useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 1998 Report Share Posted December 14, 1998 At 8:50 -0800 12/12/98, COM: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN) wrote: > >*In vedic civilization ladies never took leadership roles.* What about Nityananda Prabhu's wife, Jahnavi devi? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 1998 Report Share Posted December 14, 1998 > At 8:50 -0800 12/12/98, COM: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN) wrote: > > > >*In vedic civilization ladies never took leadership roles.* > > What about Nityananda Prabhu's wife, Jahnavi devi? She was a leader in principle only. But not directing and managing a vaisnava movement. She was very revered by all the vaisnavas, being a consort and energy of Lord Nityananda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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