Vedic

[Guest guest]

>In Vedic Dvaraka there were so many things going on which would appear to be

>non-Vedic. Certainly if Jivan Mukta dasa was present then he would be very,

>very busy fault-finding all the inhabitants there.

 

Not at all. I have no problem with prostitutes. I was the one who

suggested that ISKCON formally recognize them and establish a Prostitute

Ministry. They can be vaisnavi like everyone else and even attain pure

love of Godhead as did those whores of Dvaraka. My point, which for some

reason seems to evade your comprehension, is that whores didn't mix with

chaste and faithful wives and daughters. There was a social distinction

and restriction between the two categories of women. Is that a little

clearer?

 

>There is something obviously going on "between the lines" in Dvaraka. They

>were engaged in all these things which a person like Jivan Mukta would be

>screaming about constantly,

 

Not me! I think whores have a real important role to play in society. My

only concern is that we don;t allow them to become our daughters' role

models. Now what to speak of whores, even chaste women weren't leaders in

Dvarka. So please don't think I have a problem with that ancient

profession. The problem in ISKCON is that we refuse to clearly

distinguished between the two types of women. Hence a Prostitute Ministry

is a good idea. it is part of varnasrama culture, Vedic culture. I'm all

for it.

 

>Advancement breeds advancement. Once we taste even a little bit of the mercy

>of the Lord we enjoy the taste and want to VOLUNTARILY progress in our service

>to the Lord. It's extremely personal. No force - it would be useless. It must

>be with real care and choice in love of the service. That will come to all of

>us IF WE JUST KEEP ON TRYING to move towards the Lord!

 

Very nice.

 

 

Ys. JMd

[Guest guest]

>Hence a Prostitute Ministry is a good idea.

 

How we can call a minister a whore?

[Guest guest]

PAMHO. AGTSP.

 

> >In Vedic Dvaraka there were so many things going on which would appear to

> >be non-Vedic. Certainly if Jivan Mukta dasa was present then he would be

> >very, very busy fault-finding all the inhabitants there.

>

> Not at all. I have no problem with prostitutes. I was the one who

> suggested that ISKCON formally recognize them and establish a Prostitute

> Ministry.

 

So you would probably do the same in Dvaraka.

 

> They can be vaisnavi like everyone else and even attain pure

> love of Godhead as did those whores of Dvaraka.

 

The first, your perverted insinuations about existing prostitutes in ISKCON

seem to not help even Vaisnavis to attain pure love of Godhead, what to

speak about whores themselves. The second, who are you to estimate the

purity of love of Godhead we may possess?

 

> >There is something obviously going on "between the lines" in Dvaraka.

> >They were engaged in all these things which a person like Jivan Mukta

> >would be screaming about constantly,

>

> Not me! I think whores have a real important role to play in society.

 

Therefore you focus on *finding*, or perhaps more accurately -- *making*,

them by any means in order to help the society to prosper better. Indeed,

it's worth of applauding!

 

> The problem in ISKCON is that we refuse to clearly

> distinguished between the two types of women. Hence a Prostitute Ministry

> is a good idea. it is part of varnasrama culture, Vedic culture. I'm all

> for it.

 

So what would be your practical guidelines? What should be the criteria to

classify a Vaisnavi as a prostiture? What should be the qualifications of a

person who would be the judge?

 

Above all, if a Prostitute Ministry and the recognition of whores in ISKCON

played an essential role in our varnasrama development why Srila Prabhupada

would not implement it himself? Any references in Srila Prabhupada's books,

letters???

 

Ys Vdd

[Guest guest]

>

> > The problem in ISKCON is that we refuse to clearly

> > distinguished between the two types of women. Hence a Prostitute Ministry

is a good idea. it is part of varnasrama culture, Vedic culture. I'm all for

it.

> >

>

 

 

 

Sounds ridiculously bureacratic. Maybe we should have a whore hunters union as

well.

[Guest guest]

COM: Jivan Mukta (das) TSI (Back to Basics) (Ontario - CAN) wrote:

 

> [Text 1933769 from COM]

>

> >In Vedic Dvaraka there were so many things going on which would appear to be

> >non-Vedic. Certainly if Jivan Mukta dasa was present then he would be very,

> >very busy fault-finding all the inhabitants there.

>

> Not at all. I have no problem with prostitutes. I was the one who

> suggested that ISKCON formally recognize them and establish a Prostitute

> Ministry. They can be vaisnavi like everyone else and even attain pure

> love of Godhead as did those whores of Dvaraka. My point, which for some

> reason seems to evade your comprehension, is that whores didn't mix with

> chaste and faithful wives and daughters. There was a social distinction

> and restriction between the two categories of women. Is that a little

> clearer?

>

 

Hare Krsna dasi

 

Jivan Mukta: This is a completely offensive post. You believe that you can

get

away with it by hiding behind a veil of impersonalism. If you specifically

named

even five devotee women whom you regard as prostitutes that would run such a

"ministry," you would probably be blasted off COM in a minute.

 

You are hiding behind impersonalism -- and impersonalism is your fundamental

philosophy. Tons of Vedic rules for abstract women, never carrying what the

actual

devastating effects of your proposals would be on a personal level, never

caring

how it would practically stop the spread of Krsna consciousness, never caring

that

when you say that ISKCON women who are dedicating their lives to spreading

Prabhupada's movement you are whores you are paving the way for the abuse of

devotee women around the world, never caring that you are commiting incredible

blasphemy.

 

This is the true agenda of the Vedics: heirarchy, oppression and impersonalism

--

not spreading love of Krsna.

[Guest guest]

>How we can call a minister a whore?

 

Prabhupada called Indira Gandhi, the Prime Minister of India a prostitute

(whore).

 

Ys. JMd

[Guest guest]

> Hare Krsna dasi

>

>Jivan Mukta: This is a completely offensive post. You believe that you can

>get

>away with it by hiding behind a veil of impersonalism. If you specifically

>named

>even five devotee women whom you regard as prostitutes that would run such a

>"ministry," you would probably be blasted off COM in a minute.

 

What's wrong with prostitutes? They were in Dvaraka weren't they. They

were devotees weren't they? Do you really think that prostitutes were

present in Krsna's own city, while ISKCON in Kali yuga has no such class of

vaisnavis? Let's get serious for a moment. If women don't like being

called prostitutes, then they should behave like chaste and faithful wives

and mothers. Any woman who seeks independence is a prostitute.

 

"She is not leader, she is a prostitute. Woman given freedom means prostitute."

(Room Conversation April 5, 1977, Bombay)

 

"A woman who has no husband declares herself independent, which means that

she becomes a prostitute." (SB 6.5.14)

 

"Women should be taken care of-as daughter, as wife, as mother, bas. No

freedom. Then prostitution. Then spoiled the whole thing. Unwanted

children, contraceptive, abortion. Very dangerous. In our society there are

girls. They should live separately. They should be given full engagement,

taken care of. No mixing. Then it will spoil. Both of them will be... We

see big, big workers, sannyasis. (Name withheld) fell victim. The example

is given: fire and butter. (laughs) You cannot say the butter will not melt

even in fire. Woman is like fire, and man is like butter." (Morning

Conversation April 30, 1977, Bombay)

 

About co-education and intermingling of the genders:

 

"Prabhupada: So our gurukula should be ideal. Not all these boys... You

should take care of these things from the very beginning-if you want

actually spiritual life. If you want to progress like animals, that is

different thing, as the whole world is doing. We want to maintain an ideal

institution. People may see. In Christian idea also, the nuns were

separate."(Morning Conversation April 30, 1977, Bombay)

 

Incredibly, what were the femininst just demanding? The right to associate

with sannyasis. Isn't this mixing? Simply outrageous. And the silence

from the sannyasis with whom these women want to associate with was simply

deafening.

 

>You are hiding behind impersonalism -- and impersonalism is your fundamental

>philosophy.

 

Actually feminism is impersonal because it says we are all equal on ever

level. This is exactly why impersonalists are not interested in VAD. We

are all one dada dada dada. This is hippie consciousness: dejavu all over

again.

 

>Tons of Vedic rules for abstract women, never carrying what the

>actual

>devastating effects of your proposals would be on a personal level,

 

This is not at all on an abstract level, dear mata though it may seem that

way to those who do not want to accept and surrender to the reality of this

wonderful Vedic culture.

 

>never caring how it would practically stop the spread

>of Krsna consciousness,

 

Really? How do you figure that?

 

>never caring that

>when you say that ISKCON women who are dedicating their lives to spreading

>Prabhupada's movement you are whores you are paving the way for the abuse of

>devotee women around the world, never caring that you are commiting

>incredible

>blasphemy.

 

I didn't say this at all. A woman doesn't have to prostitute herself to

spread Prabhupada's movement. A woman doesn't even have to leave her home

to spread this mission. The fact is that if more women uunderstood the

significance of their roles as mothers and wives instead of trying to

impress other males with their *preaching* skills, our movement would be a

formidable cultural force.

 

>This is the true agenda of the Vedics: heirarchy, oppression and

>impersonalism

 

Too bad you have such a negative view of varnasrama dharma.

 

>not spreading love of Krsna.

 

I understand this is a very emotional topic for you. But I am sure we can

find some coommon ground if you apply a little more philosophy in your

responses.

 

Ys. JMd

[Guest guest]

> >

>

> Sounds ridiculously bureacratic. Maybe we should have a whore hunters union

as

> well.

 

We could have a website "Guide to ISKCON Whore Houses" with directions and

pricing information. :-)

[Guest guest]

On 14 Dec 1998, Jivan Mukta wrote:

 

> >How we can call a minister a whore?

>

> Prabhupada called Indira Gandhi, the Prime Minister of India a prostitute

> (whore).

 

 

Yes. This is the defect in Jivan Mukta - because Srila Prabhupada said

something he thinks he is as good as Srila Prabhupada if he imitates him. We

should all take note and NOT follow in Jivan Mukta's footsteps. ONLY Srila

Prabhupada can speak like he did. The rest of us are very fallen, low souls

who need to always be positive, non-offensive, compassionate, respectful, etc.

 

What's worse is that Jivan Mukta thinks he is better than Srila Prabhupada and

can change Srila Prabhupada's words to something he thinks is more accurate by

substituting "whore" for "prostitute". If Srila Prabhupada meant to say

"whore" I think he would have said it. Of course, Srila Prabhupada is worlds

beyond Jivan Mukta in his ability to speak.

[Guest guest]

On 14 Dec 1998, Jivan Mukta wrote:

 

> Too bad you have such a negative view of varnasrama dharma.

 

 

I hope all participants in this fine conference are not at all duped by this

snake of the name - Jivan Mukta. He knows very little about varnasrama-dharma.

He has never practically contributed anything related to varnsrama-dharma to

Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON or the Krsna consciousness movement. He is envious

of everyone. If we feed him he will only increase his poison. He does not have

a positive bone in his body and were he to offer anything of constructive use

in a person's spiritual development it would be conditioned upon a myriad of

obstacles which he calls "Vedic".

 

He must consider himself liberated and a pure devotee otherwise how could he

point his finger at everyone else whilst not seeing his own fingers pointing

at himself?

 

He is of no real use on this conference and I for one vote to remove him from

it as soon as possible. We have nothing to gain from his "contributions".

Indeed, we can only be disturbed and angered. I do not want to see our women

being offended any longer. Be rid of him.

[Guest guest]

>

> What's wrong with prostitutes? They were in Dvaraka weren't they. They

were devotees weren't they? Do you really think that prostitutes were present

in Krsna's own city, while ISKCON in Kali yuga has no such class of vaisnavis?

Let's get serious for a moment. If women don't like being called

prostitutes, then they should behave like chaste and faithful wives and

mothers. Any woman who seeks independence is a prostitute.

>

>

 

 

I think the real problem might be a certain fixation with seeing every woman

as a prostitute, as compared to the Vedic way of seeing every woman as one's

mother. I don't suppose we could further bend the philosophy to seeing every

mother as a prostitute.

 

I wonder what the WH union would say about that.

[Guest guest]

On 14 Dec 1998, Jivan Mukta wrote:

 

> >How we can call a minister a whore?

>

> Prabhupada called Indira Gandhi, the Prime Minister of India a prostitute

> (whore).

>

> Ys. JMd

>

>

 

 

And he went to go visit her--go figure.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

>[Text 1936352 from COM]

>

>On 14 Dec 1998, Jivan Mukta wrote:

>

>> >How we can call a minister a whore?

>>

>> Prabhupada called Indira Gandhi, the Prime Minister of India a prostitute

>> (whore).

 

At 18:52 -0800 12/14/98, WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA) wrote:

 

>What's worse is that Jivan Mukta thinks he is better than Srila Prabhupada and

>can change Srila Prabhupada's words to something he thinks is more accurate by

>substituting "whore" for "prostitute". If Srila Prabhupada meant to say

>"whore" I think he would have said it. Of course, Srila Prabhupada is worlds

>beyond Jivan Mukta in his ability to speak.

 

But don't you see he *has to*. Otherwise we couldn't keep the acronym IWM

(which currently stands for the International *Women's* Ministry) for his

newly proposed ministry.

 

What does it matter that Prabhupada never called any of his daughter either

whores or prostitutes. If Prabhupada referred to Indira Ghandi that way,

it must be the way he thought of some of his own spiritual daughters too,

right?

 

It's unbelievable.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

Janesvara wrote about Jivan Mukta:

 

> He must consider himself liberated and a pure devotee otherwise how could

> he point his finger at everyone else whilst not seeing his own fingers

> pointing at himself?

>

> He is of no real use on this conference and I for one vote to remove him

> from it as soon as possible. We have nothing to gain from his

> "contributions". Indeed, we can only be disturbed and angered. I do not

> want to see our women being offended any longer. Be rid of him.

 

I have to agree with you. Prsnigarbha prabhu, what do you think?

[Guest guest]

"WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA)" wrote:

 

> He must consider himself liberated and a pure devotee otherwise how could he

> point his finger at everyone else whilst not seeing his own fingers pointing

> at himself?

>

> He is of no real use on this conference and I for one vote to remove him from

> it as soon as possible. We have nothing to gain from his "contributions".

> Indeed, we can only be disturbed and angered. I do not want to see our women

> being offended any longer. Be rid of him.

 

I just had one thought. The demons (Duryodhana etc.) in Dvapara-yuga were also

vedic, isn´t it?

 

Anyway, concerning Jivan Mukta Prabhu, I do not allow myself to judge him, I do

not

even know him personally, and the medium of e-mail is very impersonal.

 

I think like Anantarupa Prabhu. The cause is noble (trying to follow Srila

Prabhupada),

the methodology is wrong. It is just some lack of (spiritual) intelligence.

 

As Janesvara Prabhu said, there is no gain from such contributions. It is

normal

in

management-affairs, that there are only people involved which are qualified for

those

discussions. We do not allow nonsense people in management meetings, because

they

 

will just disturbe the whole meeting and the results will be not as good as

they

could be.

 

So do you want a disturbed conference, or do you want some proactive results

from

your

discussions?

 

y.s. Stoka Krsna dasa

[Guest guest]

COM: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New Vrindavan - USA) wrote:

 

> [Text 1936392 from COM]

>

> > >

> >

> > Sounds ridiculously bureacratic. Maybe we should have a whore hunters union

> as

> > well.

>

> We could have a website "Guide to ISKCON Whore Houses" with directions and

> pricing information. :-)

 

Betaji --

 

I know you are trying to point out how preposterous this whole thing is, but

please let's not continue this particular line any further. We are skating

into

maya.

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi