Hand Grain grinders on back order

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Just a note to Y2K conference members. I suppose many of you are planning to

> stock whole grains as part of your Y2K provisions -- since they will keep

> longer than flour, and can also be used as seeds if necessary. So naturally,

> you will need some type of non-electric grain mill to grind your grains,

> chickpeas, corn, etc.

>

> Well, the news is, a lot of other people are also thinking like you.

 

I was just reading where a dried foods survivalist place has doubled their

production and is still 2 months backlogged.

 

> Lehman's website is http://www.lehmans.com Also "Learn more about

gardening,

> baking bread, making cheese, living without electricity, homesteading and

much

> more at http://countrylife.net ."

>

 

Love Lehmans. Although they are not cheap, and with a bit of endeavor it is

possible to find many of the things they sell cheaper in other places, if it

is

nonelectric, they have it. Over the years, we have picked up many old

fashioned

things at farm auctions at a fraction of Lehman's prices, and would advise

anyone

starting out to haunt the auctions, but now we have a lot of stuff already,

so

going to the auctions now is time we usually can't afford, although I still

enjoy

them. The last auction I was at was a supermarket that went out of busines,

and I

got a lot of baskets to use for display on our roadside stand.

 

We bought our woodcook stove at Lehmans - got it a little cheaper as it was a

floor

model. As a matter of fact, the most recent catalogue I have from them still

had

it's picture in it.

 

> For anyone who is interested I ordered "our best grain mill" with stone

burrs

> C-17A for $149.00. You can also get this with Cast Iron burrs, for same

price

> C-17B (for tahini, nut butters, etc.)

 

I looked this up and noticed that you can get a conversion for $39 so you can

use

it both as a cast iron or stone mill. Trust me, they aren't making it up when

they say you can't grind nuts in a stone mill.

 

We bought ours from them also, but I notice they don't stock the one we got

anymore. We also paid about $150 for ours. It has the type of handle like on

the

one they call the Rolls Royce of Grain mills($465), that can be used as either

a

hand mill, or by removing the wood handle, it is also a pulley for using with

electric motors.

 

Before I became a devotee, I bought one that was pictured in the catalogue for

under $95. Take my advice, spend the extra money for the beter ones. The

difference in grind is noticeable, both in the finest attainable, and in the

time

spent in grinding. As a young, pumped up farm boy, I could grind about 5

pounds

an hour with the cheaper one. It takes less effort to get that with the

better

quality.

 

If you are serious and have the money, or are buying for a buyers club or a

temple, consider the most expensive one. The fact that it can be used both as

electric and as a hand grinder mean not only would it be vaulable in a post

cataclysmic event scenario, but it could be useful for a day to day tool now.

We

have done experiments with grinding a batch of wheat, then immediately making

pancakes with half the flour, then waiting 24 hours and using the same recipie

with the other half. There was a dramatic difference in sweetness, as fresh

flour

oxidizes rapidly . In NV, we used to store grains and ground fresh flour

daily as

part of a rotation of stocks regimen. The chapaties and breads that came from

the

kitchen in those days, where the wheat was ground just immediate to use, were

of

superior quality.

 

If you can buy grains direct from a farmer (or better yet, grow them

yourselves),

then grind them, you can even save a little money on flour costs that if you

are

grinding for more than just one family, can repay the investment in the

grinder

fairly quickly. The absolute minimum for any community dreaming about self

reliance is the ability to grind grains.

[Guest guest]

WWW: Bhakti Yoga Dasa (Toronto - CAN) wrote:

 

> [Text 2016379 from COM]

>

> HAND GRINDERS??

>

> How long do you expect these Y2K problems to last??

 

How long can you go without eating?

 

Incidentally, 1998 was the warmest year on record, eclipsing the old

record set 1 or 3 years ago depending on whose stats you read. The last

twenty years have all been above historic norms. Personally, I think

weather related problems are going to dwarf Y2K.

[Guest guest]

On 14 Jan 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

> How long can you go without eating?

 

Hoping to be in India. I wouldn't have to worry about going without food.

 

> Personally, I think weather related problems are going to dwarf Y2K.

 

You're not kidding. We've had over 100cm (40 inches) of show in the last 12

days and are expecting another 30cm (12 inches) by Saturday. That will be

about 130cm (52 inches) in two weeks. They say this is a record breaker for

January and month isn't even half over.

 

All glories to Lord Indra!

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 14 Jan 1999, WWW: Bhakti Yoga Dasa (Toronto - CAN) wrote:

 

> [Text 2016379 from COM]

>

> HAND GRINDERS??

>

> How long do you expect these Y2K problems to last??

 

 

Hare Krsna dasi

*********************************

How long do I expect problems to last? They may last some time. Think of

it like this: It's January, in the middle of winter, with all the usual

winter storm crises. A phone company goes out, and a power company goes

out. Also a few other local companies have problems. How will they

communicate even to tell each other what the problems are? On top of that

weather conditions make roads impassable. On top of that maybe you can't

get gas to even run snow plows. Okay: Bring on the computer programmers

to fix everything up. But where are the computer programmers going to

go?: they will go to the place where they make the most money (unless they

are conscripted by the government, which has also been discussed). Keep

in mind when our communities have a crisis, they normally call in help

from out of state - like last year's ice storm when the State of Maine

shipped in electrical linemen from North Carolina. But in this kind of

crisis that might not be possible. North Carolina might be having its own

crisis. So it's probably going to take a lot longer to fix things than in

a normal crisis, because there is the potential for so many different

kinds of problems going on in so many different places at the same time.

 

Personally, I am trying to use the Y2K event as an excuse to push myself

and my family more towards self-sufficiency. How long do I expect to be

without food? The thing I find amazing is that so many people seem to be

pretty sure of what to expect. Either they won't be without food at all,

or they will be without food for two weeks, or they will be without food

without two years. For myself: I DON'T KNOW.

 

And, living on a very low income, and pretty much locked into a

job-family-writing situation, I'm not in such a good position to do

anything dramatic to prepare myself. Also, not all of my family is really

into this, so I'm not inclined to make waves. I think in our families and

communities and in ISKCON, we need to acknowledge what a potentially

volatile topic this is. The best thing is to try to respect others' point

of view, whether they want to head for the hills, or do nothing.

Naturally, we will talk to them, but if at all possible, we really need to

avoid making this a life-or-death type argument. We just have to do the

best we can to follow the direction we believe we are getting from

Supersoul, and then leave the result up to Krsna. In this situation, we

need to cultivate as detachment. We're not going to be able to control

the results. Krsna's going to control the results.

 

So, no, I don't know how long I will be inconvenienced by Y2K. From the

things I read, it seems like that the aftershocks from Y2K could be as

serious as the problems next January, if not more so. Two of the things I

am concerned about are the USDA and petroleum.

 

We hear a lot about banks, and we hear a lot about power companies. They

are big and can afford to spend lots of money on computer programmers.

But, they are also small enough that if they mess up, they can lose

customers, especially banks. So they have incentive to make timely

repairs to their programs. I'm thinking that many of them might be all

right, except for possibly the nuclear power plants, which seem to have

too many layers of ancient code to fix.

 

But what about the US Department of Agriculture? Ever since I read that

the USDA doesn't plan to be Y2K compliant until 2002, I haven't read

anything more. Maybe people just don't appreciate the implications of

such a statement. What happens when the American government doesn't

support its farmers? - They become extinct. That has been demonstrated by

the plight of black farmers in the US. It's almost like a scientific

experiment. In about 1900, blacks were 13% of the population, and they

owned 13% of the farms. After the depression, the government got more and

more into subsidizing farms. BUT, especially in the South, the programs

for USDA subsidies and loans were administered by local white citizens who

generally denied loans to black farmers, or granted them too late in the

growing season. As the farms of the black farmers went broke as a result,

the whites bought them out. As a result, out of 250 million people in the

US and more than 10 million black citizens, there are fewer than 20,000

black farmers. Under the capitalist system, they simply went broke

without government support. (That's why the USDA is finally giving them a

little compensation.)

 

But the issue of race discrimination is not the point I'm trying to call

attention to. Instead, I'm trying to call attention to the fact that

American capitalist agriculture, as we know it today, cannot continue

without the timely input and support of the USDA. Yes, I know the $11

billion price support plan is supposedly being abolished, but some of it

still exists, and there are many, many other ways that the government

helps the farmers.

 

Now, if the USDA finds itself in too much of a tangle to help farmers, I

wonder how many are going to get their crops planted on time? How many

will be able to maintain their dairy cows? Historically, recessions and

depressions are always times for increased cow slaughter, because feed

becomes too expensive. So I find the silence that we hear from the USDA

to be worrisome. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe they have everything under

control, since that remark in the Senate. But if they have everything

under control, why aren't we hearing about it? Every other department

that is making progress is advertising it all over the place. Why aren't

we hearing from the USDA?

 

My second worry is about petroleum. Even if the USDA gets its own act

together, what about petroleum? I'm always worried about petroleum-based

agriculture, and this situation makes me even more concerned. If

petroleum does not have its act together, fuel prices are going to spike

up. That will really impact agriculture, because agriculture is one of

the most petroleum-dependent industries there is - and it can't shift over

to coal or windpower if gasoline gets too expensive. There is no such

thing as a coal-powered tractor or windpowered tractor. And that farm

equipment burns up a lot more fuel than your car does. Maybe Madhava Gosh

could tell us how much fuel it takes to run a combine harvester for one

day during harvest season.

 

But petroleum does not sound like it's in very good condition at all. I

worry about the fact that so much of our petroleum is imported. (I guess

the Norwegians don't have to worry about that.) Our petroleum is coming

from countries where institutions are not very upfront about their

short-comings. Some of those countries are known for corrupt

infrastructure. I don't feel confident that those factors will lead to

honest self-assessment and a timely treatment of the problem. Victor

Porlier's commentary on the President's Council Reports on Y2K

[Westergaard Year 2000 website] undermined my confidence even further.

Read this slowly and carefully, maybe even out loud:

 

*****************

>>Embedded in the [report's] text are such revelations as, "International

failures are likely. Lack of progress on the international front may lead

to failures that could affect the United States, especially in areas that

rely on cross-boarder networks as finance, telecommunications, and

transportation.

 

>>With regard to transportation - air, highway, transit, rail, and marine

- assessments forms were sent to 83 key trade associations in November.

Only three responded. Is it any wonder that there are, "concerns about

the readiness of the international maritime industry" and further that

"the oil and gas industry is concerned about international production and

shipping"? Given that the U.S. imports 53 percent of its crude oil and

seven percent of the refined oil it consumes, perhaps someone should be

concerned. Yet The Summary tells us that industry representatives are

"cautiously optimistic." One should remember that these are unaudited self

reports made to the oil and gas associations. When the industry said it

is "making good progress, but the rate needs to increase," does this mean

that they are on schedule?

 

>>Of the petroleum industry The Summary says, "Potential Y2K problems

range from incorrect financial transactions, oil field production outages,

refinery and pipeline stoppages, product flow disruption, as well as

potential environmental and safety hazards."

 

*******************

 

If the U.S. imports 53 percent of its crude oil, and that is coming

substantially from countries which have done little to address the Y2K

problem, that seems like a warning to me that we may be in for some

long-term problems with petroleum - not so much that we can't get any, but

that supplies will be restricted to such an extent that the prices will be

jacked up very high. In that situation, it's going to be rough on farmers

planting their crops. Not to say no one will be able to plant crops, but

when prices of inputs are spiked way up, it always increases the number of

farms that close down.

 

And, in that situation, it may be suddenly very expensive to ship things

like grain grinders, woodstoves, looms and animal-powered farm equipment

or even to load it into a truck and drive it 200 miles back to my home.

That's why I think it's good to get a lot of that kind of equipment now.

It may still be available after the year 2000, but I might not be able to

afford it if the shipping costs per pound are doubled or tripled. So

that's one reason for ordering a grain grinder now.

 

But another reason is that something like a grain grinder is manufactured

by a very, very small company. How do I know that Y2K won't wipe them

out? Small businesses are especially vulnerable to Y2K problems. We tend

to think, what's the big deal - just buy a new computer. But the problem

is that they don't have much fat to fall back on if they run into banking

snags, telecommunications snags or, especially, shipping snags that

interrupt their relations with their customers. One senator noted, "We

may say no big deal. When the Galaxy IV satellite interfered with pager

communications, everything was back on line the next day. But we forget

that several small companies went out of business when that happened.

What if the interruption was not for just one day, but for several weeks?

How many small businesses could afford that?"

 

So that's another reason for ordering that type of equipment this year.

Partly, so I won't miss out, and partly to help their business so they can

weather the Y2K storm and keep providing their products to other people -

especially spiritually minded people - who want to develop simple living.

 

In a separate file I have sent the Wall Street Journal article about

Lehman's Non-Electric. It would be interesting if devotees had a business

like this.

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

[Guest guest]

On 16 Jan 1999, Samba das wrote:

 

> Regardless of Y2K we should start living more simply in the way Srila

> Prabhupada wanted us to. Y2K is a good enough reason to start. You can get

> grain mills which can serve a small family or for the needs of a temple

> community.

 

Thanks for the advice prabhu, I'll do it. I've decided I'll move to India in

September and start trying to live that simple life. Mill ground grains here I

come.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> My second worry is about petroleum. Even if the USDA gets its own act

> together, what about petroleum? I'm always worried about petroleum-based

> agriculture, and this situation makes me even more concerned. If

> petroleum does not have its act together, fuel prices are going to spike

> up. That will really impact agriculture, because agriculture is one of

> the most petroleum-dependent industries there is - and it can't shift over

> to coal or windpower if gasoline gets too expensive. There is no such

> thing as a coal-powered tractor or windpowered tractor. And that farm

> equipment burns up a lot more fuel than your car does. Maybe Madhava Gosh

> could tell us how much fuel it takes to run a combine harvester for one

> day during harvest season.

 

My brothers plant about 1600 acres a year, and use a total of 9-10,000

gallons of diesel, and 7-8,000 gallons of gas a year. They have storage for

about a thousand gallons each, which he is planning on having full come

Christmas. He would have storage for the whole year if he could, and figures

he could make money by buying in the off season and storing, but over a

thousand gallons, all kinds of EPA regulations kick in that make it

prohibative.

 

More of a crisis then Y2K in agriculture is the lack of young farmers. My one

brother is 47 and the other is 41, and the younger one and a few others

between him and the 47 year old are the youngest farmers still working. There

are virtually none younger than that. This is in Walsh county North Dakota,

which in the 70s when I was still there was the second largest tonnage potato

producing county in the US, behind only Aroostook county , Maine.

 

Incidentally, this info is quite up to date as I did call him to commiserate

about the Vikings loss in the NFC conference championship :-(