Who is the bona fide judge?

[Guest guest]

> Since you feel thethe standard is okay to ignore the point and mock me,

> now it's my turn.

 

Who is ignoring the point? And ignoring **Srila Prabhupada**?

 

You are mocking yourself, respected gurubhrata. Especially when you condone

changes that Srila Prabhupada warned us clearly not to make.

 

And kindly note that **Srila Prabhupada** not Basu Ghosh Das, GHQ, XYZ, ABC

or whomsover, clearly says that "women are meant for certain duties".

 

"But we have to pick up the order of the shastras. Tasmad shastra-vidhanokta

As the shastra gives regulative, we have to accept that. And if we do not

accept that, yah shastra-vidhim utsrjya vartate kama-karatah, if we do

whimsically, then na siddhim avapnoti, you cannot get any perfection of

life, na sukham, neither you’ll be happy."

 

Srila Prabhupada on 27-9-76 at Vrindavan in a lecture on SB 1.7.32-33.

 

"So those who are not following the authorized instructions, they are simply

creating disturbance, and by such process one cannot be happy, neither

perfect, and what to speak of going back to home, back to Godhead? We do not

therefore accept anything which is not authorized by the disciplic

succession. We reject immediately. There is example that in India there is a

tree, sagu, sagu(?) tree. I do not know whether it is in your country. That,

that tree has a very, I mean to say, thick trunk. But a little jerking, it

will break. A little jerking. Sagu. And there is another tree which is

called tamarind tree. So even a fingerlike stem, you cannot break. It is so

strong. So our policy should be that when we are falling down, we must take

shelter of this tamarind tree, not that sagu tree. The tamarind tree is

Vedic instruction, infallible, without any mistake. As I have given you

several times the example that Vedas says that stool of animal is impure,

and in another place it says that stool of cow is pure."

 

Srila Prabhupada From a lecture on SB 2.3.24 at Los Angeles on 22-6-72.

 

Similarly, a devotee, an unflinching devotee, without any other desires, who

is dedicated to the service of the Lord, he is Sadhu. So we have to take

shelter of such Sadhu. Adau gurv-ashrayam. And Sadhu will instruct you. Not

by whims, but through Shastra. He is Sadhu. Sadhu will never speak to you

anything which is not in the Shastra. Sadhu, Shastra, and guru. And guru is

bona fide spiritual master who follows Sadhu and Shastra. Who follows his

bona fide spiritual master and who follows the instructions of Shastra, he

is guru. Sadhu-Shastra-guru-vakya, tinete kariya aikya. Narottama dasa

Thakura says that you have to act by accommodating the instruction of Sadhu,

instruction of Shastra. And you have to distribute. Because Caitanya

Mahaprabhu says that these ignorant people who are being defeated

repeatedly, such persons, they are being entangled in this materialistic way

of life, in this material world. Krishna bhuliya jiva. He said, Krishna

bhuli' sei jiva anadi -bahirmukha. Anyone who has forgotten Krishna, he is

anadi bahir mukha. He is enamored by this external energy, material world.

Just like in Bombay city everyone is working hard, very hard. Their mission

is, "How I shall be able to construct a skyscraper building." That's all.

Why they are working so hard? Their mission is that I must have a skyscraper

house and good apartment and nice wife, nice children and bank balance, then

happy. (chuckles) But he does not know how long these things will continue.

Ten years, twenty years, fifty years, hundred years, then finished. Your

skyscraper building, your nice wife, your apartment, your friends,

everything that you have made(?), you do not know where you are going. That

you do not know. There is risk. Yam yam vapi smaran loke tyajaty, at the

time of death everything will be examined. What are you going to be next?

You have to accept another body. So that body will be created in this life.

Yam yam vapi and that bodily structure will be formed at the time of your

death. Just like if you leave this apartment, you'll have to go another

apartment. So you have to select another apartment, good or bad. That will

depend on your capacity, how much rent you are able to pay. Then you leave

this apartment. Similarly, at the time of death by the superior arrangement,

another apartment will be given to you, and immediately that is settled up,

you leave this body and enter into that body. Daiva-netrena, karmana

daiva-netrena. That will be considered by your work. If your works are

nice... That is explained in the Bhagavad-gétä...

 

Srila Prabhupada in a Lecture on TLC at Bombay 17-3-71.

 

Prabhupada: These are all imagination. When woman, when she is misguided,

she becomes dangerous. There is no question of love. But one thing,

according to Vedic conception life, that women and children are on the same

level, so they should be given protection by men. In childhood the

protection is from the father, in youthhood the protection is from the

husband, and in old age the protection is from the grown-up sons. So they

should never be given independence. They should be given protection, and

their natural love for father or for husband or for children, then that

propensity will grow very smoothly, and that will establish the relationship

with woman and man very happy, and both of them will be able to execute

their real function, spiritual life, by cooperation. The woman is known as

his better half, so if she looks after the comfort of the man, a man is

working and he is looking after the comfort, then both will be satisfied and

their spiritual life will progress. Woman is meant for certain duties; man

is meant for... Man is meant for hard working, and woman is meant for homely

comfort, love. So both of them, if they are situated in their respective

duties under proper training, then this combination of man and woman will

help both of them to make progress in spiritual life.

 

Prabhupada to Hayagriva in their discussions on philosophy.

 

"Here is a difference between male and female that exists even in the higher

statuses of life -- in fact, even between Lord Siva and his wife. Lord

Siva could understand Citraketu very nicely, but Parvati could not. Thus

even in the higher statuses of life there is a difference between the

understanding of a male and that of a female. It may be clearly said that

the understanding of a woman is always inferior to the understanding of a

man. In the Western countries there is now agitation to the effect that

man and woman should be considered equal, but from this verse it appears

that woman is always less intelligent than man." (Srila Prabhupada in Srimad

Bhagavatam SB 6:17:34-35, Purport)

[Guest guest]

> Apparently) the members were:

> * not rtvikvadis

> * not disloyal to Prabhupada in the name of following advanced Vaisnavas

> of disharmonious relationship to ISKCON * not sahajiyas, premature

> *rasika-bhaktas*, etc.

> * not politically ambitious for power, etc.

> * not advocates of mixed devotional service in preference to pure

> devotional service (Press Return)

> * not blind followers of cult leaders

> * not henpecked (!)...

>

 

 

It is really funny that you are stressing that members of GHQ are not

henpecked considering the fact that most of them are sannyasis. Besides

that, I tell you the truths, being not henpecked according to Srila

Prabhupad and Krishna is not realy a qualification. THE TRUTH IS THAT THE

HENPECKED MEN ARE THE REAL BONAFIDE ONES AND THE FALSE RENOUNCED ONES ARE

THE BOGUS. Here we go:

 

Krishna Book, chapter sixty-one

 

"All the 16108 wives of Krishna were princesses, and when each saw that

Krishna was always present in her respective palace and did not leave home,

she considered Krishna a HENPECKED husband who was very much attached to

her. Every one of them thought that Krishna was her very obedient husband,

but actually Krishna had no attraction for any of them. Although each

thought that she was the only wife of Krishna and was very, very dear to

Him, Lord Krishna, being atmarama, self sufficient, felt neither attraction

nor enmity toward any of them; He was equal to all the wives and treated

them as a perfect husband just to please them. For Him, there was no need of

even a single wife. In fact, since they were women, the wives could not

understand the exalted position of Krishna, nor the truths about Him.

All the princesses who were wives of Krishna were exquisitely beautiful,

and each one of them was attracted by Krishna's eyes, which were just like

lotus petals, and by His beautiful face, long arms, beautiful ears,

pleasing smile, humorous talk and sweet words. Influenced by these features

of Krishna, they all used to dress themselves very attractively, desiring

to attract Him by their feminine bodily appeal. They exhibited their

feminine characteristics by smilling and moving their eyebrows, thus

shooting sharp arrows of conjugal love just to aweken Krishna's lusty

desires for them. Still, they could not arouse Krishna's mind or His sexual

appetite. This means that Krishna never had any sexual relations with any

of His many wives, save and exept to beget children.

The queens of Dvaraka were so fortunate that they got Lord Sri Krishna as

their husband and personal companion, although He is ot approachable by

exalted demigods like Brahma. Lord Krishna and His queens remained together

as husband and wife, and Krishna, as an IDEAL HUSBAND, treated them in such

a way that at every moment there was an increase of transcendental bliss in

their smilling exchanges, talking and mixing together."

 

So here we have an example of ideal familly life. Husband acts as

completely henpecked, and wife is loving and chaste. Krishna came just to

show the example for common men to follow. He was henpecked and didn't mind

to show that to others for evidence, He wasn't to proud and He had enough

selfconfidence.

 

So ideal household life: henpecked husband = loving, shy and chaste wife.

A = B or,

B = A.

So, we have lots to do on both sides. That means to educate both sides.

 

So, Krishna was henpecked husband and he is setting THE STANDARD. I just

wander, WHO in ISKCON has educated quite some of our men that to be REAL MEN

means not to be henpecked. Or, in other words, to be false renounced,

arrogant and proud.

 

Yes, I am voting for many henpecked housholders on the GBC, because they

are the ones who will really take care of women's needs. I don't think that

putting falsely renounced ones would help, because they would do everything

to show how (falsely) renounced they are, and how they don't care about

women. In this way, women will continue to make revolutions, because their

needs will not be fulfilled.

 

I suggest that all falsely renounced householders move to a forest and

there continue to practice dry renonciation while eating dry leaves. In this

way, the rest of us, who like to follow Krishnas standard, can have some

peace while working on developing loving, personal relationships.

[Guest guest]

On Sat, 12 Dec 1998, COM: Sraddha (dd) HKS (Gothenburg - S) wrote:

'

''It is really funny that you are stressing that members of GHQ are not

''henpecked considering the fact that most of them are sannyasis.

 

Of the 17 members, 5 were *sannyasis*, but I think it not false to say that

they also are not henpecked husbands

 

''Prabhupad and Krishna is not realy a qualification. THE TRUTH IS THAT THE

''HENPECKED MEN ARE THE REAL BONAFIDE ONES AND THE FALSE RENOUNCED ONES ARE

''THE BOGUS.

 

Not so, I humbly submit. Folio searchers may find (Canto 3, somewhere) that

it is a disqualification for a husband to be henpecked. As for the

following, Lord Krsna is ideal husband because he appeared to be henpecked.

That is the perfection. The husband should never become henpecked, but he

should appear to be so. (Good luck, prabhus!)

 

''she considered Krishna a HENPECKED husband who was very much attached to

''her. Every one of them thought that Krishna was her very obedient husband,

''but actually Krishna had no attraction for any of them.

 

Note: the wives considered Krsna to be henpecked, but He "had no attraction

for any of them."

 

'' So ideal household life: henpecked husband = loving, shy and chaste wife.

'' A = B or,

'' B = A.

 

I would put it this way: The equal need is for both husband and wife to

become ideal. Ideal wife means loving, shy, and chaste. Ideal husband means

dedicated to the mission of the spiritual master and *apparently* henpecked.

 

'' So, we have lots to do on both sides. That means to educate both sides.

 

Absolutely.

 

'' So, Krishna [although never swayed by the illusory energy, still always

appeared to be a] henpecked husband and he is setting THE STANDARD.

 

Note that I edited your statement above, mataji.

 

''I just wander, WHO in ISKCON has educated quite some of our men that to be

REAL MEN means not to be henpecked. Or, in other words, to be false

renounced, arrogant and proud.

 

But "not to be henpecked" should not be equated with "falsely renounced,

arrogant, and proud."

 

'' Yes, I am voting for many henpecked housholders on the GBC, because they

''are the ones who will really take care of women's needs.

 

Not a good proposal. Henpecked husbands will not properly care for women's

ultimate welfare, but will become controlled by women's tenedencies towards

*maya*. Woman needs protection from a Krsna conscious husband. She does need

to be indulged by a henpecked husband.

 

I don't think that

''putting falsely renounced ones would help, because they would do everything

''to show how (falsely) renounced they are, and how they don't care about

''women. In this way, women will continue to make revolutions, because their

''needs will not be fulfilled.

 

Truly renounced husbands (who may appear henpecked) will be capable to

control their wives by dint of their Krsna conscious love and care. Such

wives will feel no need to make revolution.

 

'' I suggest that all falsely renounced householders move to a forest and

''there continue to practice dry renonciation while eating dry leaves. In this

''way, the rest of us, who like to follow Krishnas standard, can have some

''peace while working on developing loving, personal relationships.

 

This suggestion of Your Grace shows likehood to become a future GBC

resolution!

 

ys,

GKd

*dharmo-rakshati rakshitaha*

[Guest guest]

> It is really funny that you are stressing that members of GHQ are not

> henpecked considering the fact that most of them are sannyasis. Besides

> that, I tell you the truths, being not henpecked according to Srila

> Prabhupad and Krishna is not realy a qualification. THE TRUTH IS THAT THE

> HENPECKED MEN ARE THE REAL BONAFIDE ONES AND THE FALSE RENOUNCED ONES ARE

> THE BOGUS. Here we go:

 

Mataji....

 

I am/was a member of GHQ.

 

And I am most certainly henpecked! Guess I qualify.

 

> So here we have an example of ideal familly life. Husband acts as

> completely henpecked, and wife is loving and chaste. Krishna came just to

> show the example for common men to follow. He was henpecked and didn't

> mind to show that to others for evidence, He wasn't to proud and He had

> enough selfconfidence.

 

> So ideal household life: henpecked husband = loving, shy and chaste wife.

> A = B or, B = A.

> So, we have lots to do on both sides. That means to educate both sides.

 

OK. You have scored 2 points!!! (I'm serious. I do agree with your

points).

 

> So, Krishna was henpecked husband and he is setting THE STANDARD. I just

> wander, WHO in ISKCON has educated quite some of our men that to be REAL

> MEN means not to be henpecked. Or, in other words, to be false renounced,

> arrogant and proud.

 

As soon as *anyone* becomes arrogant or proud, he/she loses his/her

qualification in Krishna Consciousness.

 

> Yes, I am voting for many henpecked housholders on the GBC, because they

> are the ones who will really take care of women's needs. I don't think

> that putting falsely renounced ones would help, because they would do

> everything to show how (falsely) renounced they are, and how they don't

> care about women. In this way, women will continue to make revolutions,

> because their needs will not be fulfilled.

 

As for the GBC... Prabhupada made it & put his "leaders/managers" there.

The process was, admittedly in view of "time & circumstances".

 

ISKCON was formed by Srila Prabhupada to spread Krishna Bhakti & the Vedic

conception of life. Here's one of the statements Prabhupada made about

women:

 

Prabhupada to Hayagriva in their discussions on philosophy.

 

"Here is a difference between male and female that exists even in the higher

statuses of life -- in fact, even between Lord Siva and his wife. Lord

Siva could understand Citraketu very nicely, but Parvati could not. Thus

even in the higher statuses of life there is a difference between the

understanding of a male and that of a female. It may be clearly said that

the understanding of a woman is always inferior to the understanding of a

man. In the Western countries there is now agitation to the effect that

man and woman should be considered equal, but from this verse it appears

that woman is always less intelligent than man." (Srila Prabhupada in Srimad

Bhagavatam SB 6:17:34-35, Purport)

 

And here is Prabhupada's formula for "women's needs being fulfilled":

 

 

Srila Prabhupada in a Lecture on TLC at Bombay 17-3-71.

 

Prabhupada: These are all imagination. When woman, when she is misguided,

she becomes dangerous. There is no question of love. But one thing,

according to Vedic conception life, that women and children are on the same

level, so they should be given protection by men. In childhood the

protection is from the father, in youthhood the protection is from the

husband, and in old age the protection is from the grown-up sons. So they

should never be given independence. They should be given protection, and

their natural love for father or for husband or for children, then that

propensity will grow very smoothly, and that will establish the relationship

with woman and man very happy, and both of them will be able to execute

their real function, spiritual life, by cooperation. The woman is known as

his better half, so if she looks after the comfort of the man, a man is

working and he is looking after the comfort, then both will be satisfied and

their spiritual life will progress. Woman is meant for certain duties; man

is meant for... Man is meant for hard working, and woman is meant for homely

comfort, love. So both of them, if they are situated in their respective

duties under proper training, then this combination of man and woman will

help both of them to make progress in spiritual life.

 

> I suggest that all falsely renounced householders move to a forest and

> there continue to practice dry renonciation while eating dry leaves. In

> this way, the rest of us, who like to follow Krishnas standard, can have

> some peace while working on developing loving, personal relationships.

 

Yes, let us follow Prabhupada's instructions above. Let the ladies realize

that "Woman is meant for certain duties", as are men. Then the ladies will

be happy. Agitating for this & that is simply that - agitation.

 

dasabhas,

 

Basu Ghosh Das

[Guest guest]

> Agitating for this & that is simply that - agitation.

>

>

 

 

But agitating against this and that is pure nectar. We just have to learn the

right way to get ourselves all agitated.

[Guest guest]

> Note: the wives considered Krsna to be henpecked, but He "had no

> attraction for any of them."

>

I was speaking from the wife point of you.

 

Here are some more exemples:

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.1.29

 

"Queen Barhismati always kept Maharaja Priyavrata very encouraged, and

thus he executed his governmental duty very properly. In this verse iva has

twice been used to indicate that Maharaja Priyavrata acted exactly like a

HENPECKED husband and thereby seemed to have lost his sense of human

responsibility. Actually, however, he was fully conscious of his position as

a spirit soul, although he seemingly behaved like an acquiescent karmi

husband."

 

Krishna Book, ch. 47

 

"So Lord Ramacandra, as a ksatriya, should have fought with Vali face to

face, but, instigated by His friend, He killed him from behind a tree. Thus

He deviated from the religious principles of a ksatriya. Also, He was so

attracted by the beauty of Sita that He converted Surphanakha, the sister of

Ravana, into un ugly women by cutting off her nose and ears. Surphanakha

proposed an intimate relationship with Him, and as a ksatriya He should have

satisfied her. But he was so HENPECKED that He could not forget Sitadevi and

converted Surphanakha into an ugly women."

Note: Here is Radharani (women) speaking that's why is not said that Rama

is "apparently" henpecked.

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.3.5

 

"Just to please His dear wife, the Lord brought back the parijata tree

from heaven, just as an ordinary husband would do. But Indra, the King of

heaven, induced by his wives (henpecked as he was), ran after the Lord with

full force to fight Him.

 

There was no fault on the part of the Lord, even though He took away the

tree from the heavenly kingdom, but because Indra was henpecked, dominated

by his beautiful wives like Saci, he became a fool, just as all persons who

are dominated by their wives are generally foolish. Indra thought that

Krishna was a henpecked husband who only by the will of His wife Satyabhama

took away the property of heaven, and therefore he thought that Krisha could

be punished. He forgot that the Lord is the proprietor of everything and

cannot be henpecked. The Lord is fully independent, and by His will only He

can have hundreds and thousands of wives like Satyabhama. He was not,

therefore, attached to Satyabhama because she was a beatiful wife, but He

was pleased with her devotional service and thus wanted to reciprocate the

unalloyed devotion of His devotee."

Note: Indra was henpecked and a fool.

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.3.19

 

"Men who are like dogs, hogs, camels and asses praise those men who never

listen to the transcendental pastimes of Lord Sri Krishna, the deliverer

from evils.

 

.... The ass is an animal who is celebrated as the greatest fool, even

amongst the animals. The ass works very hard and carries burdens of the

maximum weight without making profit for itself. The ass is generally

engaged by the washermen, whose social position is not very respectable.

And the special qualification of the ass is that it is very much accustomed

to being kicked by the opposite sex. When the ass begs for sexual

intercourse, he is kicked by the fair sex, yet he still follows the female

for such sexual pleasure. A HENPECKED man is compered, therefore, to the

ass. The general mass of people work very hard, especially in the age of

Kali. In this age the human being is actually engaged in the work of an ass,

carrying heavy burdens and driving thela and rickshaws. The so called

advancement of human civilization has engaged a human being in the work of

an ass. The laborers in great factories and workshops are also engaged in

such burdensome work, and after working hard and during the day, the poor

laborer has to be again kicked by the fair sex, not only for sex enjoyment

but also for so many household affairs."

Note: Srila Prabhupad is here speaking of materialistic henpecked men.

 

Krishna was apparently henpecked, Maharaj Priyavrata was apparently

henpecked, Lord Rama was henpecked, Indra was henpecked and foolish,

materialistic men are henpecked like an ass.

 

Conclusion:

 

Wife point of view: husband is always henpecked (no matter if he is an

ideal one or an ass).

 

Husband point of view: Husband is always outwordly henpecked (how much he

is an ideal one and how much he is an ass - that's his internal problem).

 

So, I was voting for "apparently" henpecked householders on the GBC.

[Guest guest]

On 13 Dec 1998, Sraddha dd wrote:

 

> > Note: the wives considered Krsna to be henpecked, but He "had no

> > attraction for any of them."

> >

> I was speaking from the wife point of you.

>

> Here are some more exemples:

>

> Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.1.29.....

 

>

> Conclusion:

>

> Wife point of view: husband is always henpecked (no matter if he is an

ideal one or an ass).

>

> Husband point of view: Husband is always outwordly henpecked (how much he

is an ideal one and how much he is an ass - that's his internal problem).

>

 

 

 

I guess in Vedic times husbands outworldly acted hen-pecked, but in modern

times many have degraded into simply a bunch of peckers.

 

You know, if you are supposedly protecting someone, part of it would seem to

include helping the protectee feel secure and stable in their KC enviroment.

Everything is a matter of balance.

[Guest guest]

> Conclusion:

>

> Wife point of view: husband is always henpecked (no matter if he is an

> ideal one or an ass).

>

> Husband point of view: Husband is always outwordly henpecked (how much he

> is an ideal one and how much he is an ass - that's his internal problem).

>

> So, I was voting for "apparently" henpecked householders on the GBC.

 

 

.... time to learn about life truths from the "less

intelligent" class, Basu Ghosh prabhu, eh?

 

 

ys mnd

 

PS to Sraddha dd:

The "Vedics" have already proclaimed to the world that they

are all not henpecked husbands. Why not leave them in that

one illusion, at least?

[Guest guest]

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998, COM: Mahanidhi (das) HKS (Lund - S) wrote:

 

''PS to Sraddha dd:

'' The "Vedics" have already proclaimed to the world that they

'' are all not henpecked husbands. Why not leave them in that

'' one illusion, at least?

 

PPS (author's note:) When I wrote that list, the last item was:

 

* not henpecked (!)

 

I purposely did not add a smiley, but...

 

ys,

GKd

*dharmo-rakshati rakshitaha*

[Guest guest]

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998, COM: Sraddha (dd) HKS (Gothenburg - S) wrote:

 

'' So, I was voting for "apparently" henpecked householders on the GBC.

''

You can add my vote for that!

 

ys,

GKd

*satyam bruyat priyam bruyat*

[Guest guest]

>

>

> I guess in Vedic times husbands outworldly acted hen-pecked, but in modern

> times many have degraded into simply a bunch of peckers.

 

Groan, that is really bad! (LOL)

[Guest guest]

Please accept my humble obesiances and all glories to srila Prabhupada!

Could you please remove me form the mailing list of any conferences !

 

I thank you very much

Hare Krsna

Your servant

Bharat Patel

 

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