sannyasis, management and women's affairs

[Guest guest]

Did you have seen that text, Prabhus? If you are arguing with guru, sadhu,

sastra, then please read this text. This text comes from a real sadhu, not from

"socalled" sastra (or some text out of context)

 

This is one of the most intelligent text I have seen in the last four weeks in

this conference. Never say again (by cheaply imitating Prabhupada),

that woman are less intelligent than man.

 

"COM: Sudharma (dd) ACBSP (Alachua - USA)" wrote:

 

> [Text 1925652 from COM]

>

> In response to several texts written over the last few weeks on your

> conference, the most recent of which was:

>

> Does Prabhupada ever say sannyasis should be directly involved in things

like

> protecting women? He didn't even want Jayatirtha to get involved with the

> management of Yamuna and Dinatarine's independent women's project or have

> them sew clothes for the sannyasis' Deities (SPL 76-01-13).

>

> I would like to comment.

>

> Yes, Yamuna was deeply loved, appreciated and cared for by Srila Prabhupada (

> a sannyasi), despite her human frailties, whatever they may be, and he taught

> others to be respectful of her and treat her with dignity and concern -- as

he

> wanted for all of his devotees....but he did not want Jayatirtha to get

> involved in her personal life...

>

> perhaps there is a point here to consider, that we should not be personally

> and overly involved in the lives of individuals & their family members or the

> services of individual devotees they know little or nothing about...like what

> has been happening here on internet. (particularly those who are not well

> wishers )

>

> Of course, I understand the arguments, that we are trying to set the proper

> standards according to Varna Ashrama, etc. But lets' not get too

confused...To

> understand Varna Ashrama, in its essential form, our hearts and understanding

> must be free from offense.

>

> There are checks and balances that help us in our process of self realization

> and practical application. One is guru, sastra and sadhu....since principles

> of intolerance and vilification of those sincerely practicing Krishna

> consciousness are never accepted by the great sages, by our beloved Guru

Srila

> Prabhupada, or by sastra...they have no place in philosphical or experiencial

> discussion of Varna Ashram, devotional service, or association of devotees.

> Further, quotes can not be taken as isolated, but must be backed by the

> practical application of Guru and sadhu. (the sadhu being the learned and

> gentle brahmana who sees with equal vision...)

>

> Next is a consideration of balance....of being able to look at the whole

> picture with a view to understanding and uplifting all others in devotional

> service (which is of course the essential principle of Varna Ashrama).

>

> Along with balance is the question of priority...in our line, as disciples of

> Srila Prabhupada, our priorities are quite clear...to give Krishna

> consciousness to others...Srila Prabhupada translated this KC message as: we

> are not the body, we are spirit souls, eternal part and parcels of the

Supreme

> Personality of Godhead...this is the message we are meant to be giving, and

> this is the priority we are meant to be exemplifying. We do not simply follow

> rules and regulations only for the sake of following them, (or personally

> benefitting by them) rather we follow rules for the sake of spiritual

> advancement -- nor do we ask others to accept these rules and regulations

> simply for the purpose of following them.

>

> Finally, we have the question of factual understanding and realization.

Actual

> understanding and realization can only come when one has understood sastra

> with the proper attitude of gentleness, selflessness and devotion. [sastra

has

> been applied even by non-devotees, especially in terms of etiquette and

social

> considerations, but this application becomes abominable when applied with the

> wrong intent or understanding].

>

> Here again, we have the consideration of attitude. But we have another

> consideration also...that is misapplication of philosophy; also known by some

> as 'quote bashing'. This may be defined as taking quotes and applying or

> 'misapplying' to make a point which is not backed with the proper devotional

> attitude. Srila Prabhupada instructed us to both read and speak according to

> our understanding and practice. If we are speaking sastra in such a manner as

> to isolate, alienate or degrade any sincere devotee what is the question of

> understanding even the most basic principles of devotional life.

> (Incidentally, the point that we are not the bodies is the basic, most

> foundational principle of Srila Prabhupada's teaching to us, understanding

> spirit and matter side by side does not mean we forget this point).

>

> Throughout the thousands of texts which have circulated over the course of

the

> last few weeks I have commented 3 or 4 times. Why, because at it's best, the

> air of discussion is unproductive, a fairer description would be mean-

> spirited. I have watched my godsisters be condemned by men whose character

and

> service records pale before the very women they are speaking of, but have

said

> nothing....simply hoping to avoid the level of discussion currently underway.

>

> But, I am afraid that well meaning devotees are trying to find balance in the

> discussions and thus have given some degree of credibility and consideration

> to argumention based on meanspiritness. Perhaps I have done wrong by keeping

> silent...I do not know.

>

> I think the conference organizers should consider if they want this

discussion

> to continue...if they do, then we should find a way to pursue these thoughts

> in a manner which is uplifting and not degraded. Personally, I believe we

> should all take a break from the current discussions long enough to

> reestablish a well-wishing attitude. Then, a proper means of discussion

> should be found, amongst well-wishers, that is balanced, compassionate and

> uplifting, patient and reflective, genuine and beneficial. (Simply taking

> offensive language out of the discussion may not be enough).

>

> In closing I would like to leave this thought, a quote which I hope is fair

> for me to use (and is not quote-bashing) from Srila Prabhupada's purport (SB

> 4.4.13), "A man becomes the greatest soul by accepting the goodness of

other's

> qualities, but by unnecessarily considering others' good qualities to be bad,

> you have become the lowest of the fallen souls."

>

> May we help each other to follow in the footsteps of the greatest of souls.

[Guest guest]

Sudharma Dasi wrote:

 

>Yes, Yamuna was deeply loved, appreciated and cared for by Srila Prabhupada (

>a sannyasi), despite her human frailties, whatever they may be, and he taught

>others to be respectful of her and treat her with dignity and concern -- as he

>wanted for all of his devotees....but he did not want Jayatirtha to get

>involved in her personal life...

 

This is completely wrong and completely misrepresents the letters contents.

Prabhupada restricted Jayatirtha from all managerial involvement with these

women. Obviously a man should not get involved with a woman's personal

life. You are misrepresenting the letter. Sannyasis were not to associate

with these women even by having Deity clothes sewn by them. The letter is

pretty clear:

 

"If they want they can have a separate asrama supported independently of

ISKCON. Every woman in America has money, so why do they want support? No,

the BBT cannot give them loan. You may check that they are chanting and

following the rules but *do not get involved with their management*. So far

your suggestion that they sew clothes for the sannyasis Deities it is not

possible. Sannyasis may have no connection with women."

 

Why are you twisting the obvious intent of the letter? If you want to

establish credibility, this is not the way to do it.

 

>perhaps there is a point here to consider, that we should not be personally

>and overly involved in the lives of individuals & their family members or the

>services of individual devotees they know little or nothing about...like what

>has been happening here on internet. (particularly those who are not well

>wishers )

 

I again disagree. Anyone who is being considered an authority or is

already an authority in ISKCON should expect a full and complete scrutiny

of their personal life especially that their life as an ISKCON devotee.

Our leaders must be beyond reproach. BKG was unwilling to have the

devotees from the Murari band play on his tapes due to their not apparently

following the four regs. Is that not passing judgement and getting

involved in devotees personal lives? We should also consistently apply our

standards and policies.

 

>that we are trying to set the proper

>standards according to Varna Ashrama, etc. But lets' not get too confused...To

>understand Varna Ashrama, in its essential form, our hearts and understanding

>must be free from offense.

 

How are you setting proper VAD standards by allowing something even

Prabhupada ridiculed: women leadership. Prabhupada didn't want women

attending his VAD College. You insist on denying these most obvious

directions on social etiquette and instead whitewash everything with

emotional, feel-good, lovey-dovey mind rot.

 

>There are checks and balances that help us in our process of self realization

>and practical application. One is guru, sastra and sadhu....since principles

>of intolerance and vilification of those sincerely practicing Krishna

>consciousness are never accepted by the great sages, by our beloved Guru Srila

>Prabhupada, or by sastra...they have no place in philosophical or experiencial

>discussion of Varna Ashram, devotional service, or association of devotees.

>Further, quotes can not be taken as isolated, but must be backed by the

>practical application of Guru and sadhu. (the sadhu being the learned and

>gentle brahmana who sees with equal vision...)

 

Was Malati dd. engaged in prostitution and pimping? If she wasn't then I

apologize. If she was then I have the right to say that she was a

full-fledged prostitute and madame after having taken her initiation and

marriage vows. Will we now be censured for uttered historical facts?

 

>Next is a consideration of balance....of being able to look at the whole

>picture with a view to understanding and uplifting all others in devotional

>service (which is of course the essential principle of Varna Ashrama).

 

Actually, our concern is for future generations. The first generation of

western devotees are so entrenched in the nastiness of western culture that

it really would be unrealistic to expect too much from them. What is

extremely disconcerting, though, is that these same devotees are changing

the cultural focus of our movement and obscuring the fact that ISKCON was

intended to bring about a complete Vedic cultural revival. The issue isn't

our current imperfections, the issue if the deviation in our philosophy

and goals. Do you accept that ISKCON was intended to reintroduce VAD i.e

Vedic culture? If so, how are the social goals of the IWM consistent with

that cultural objective?

 

>(Incidentally, the point that we are not the bodies is the basic, most

>foundational principle of Srila Prabhupada's teaching to us, understanding

>spirit and matter side by side does not mean we forget this point).

 

Yes. And it is precisely this knowledge that we are not these bodies that

is supposed to help up perform our prescribed duties without attachment and

aversion. This is the ABC of KC. Not that our intrinsic spirituality

absolves us from following these social duties.

 

>But, I am afraid that well meaning devotees are trying to find balance in the

>discussions and thus have given some degree of credibility and consideration

>to argumention based on meanspiritness. Perhaps I have done wrong by keeping

>silent...I do not know.

 

How is it mean-spirited to say that Malati voluntarily accepted the

profession of a whore and madame after taking initiation from Prabhupada?

Is it not a fact? Haridas Thakura initiated a whore whose past will be

forever enshrined in the CC. She undoubedly became a pure devotee but her

past was never forgotten. She was also not given prominence in the

sankirtana movement. But you should not despair. I have never said that

Malati can't engage in devotional service. The issue is the

appropriateness of having someone with her background, male or female,

appointed to the GBC or any other position of authority.

 

>I think the conference organizers should consider if they want this discussion

>to continue...if they do, then we should find a way to pursue these thoughts

>in a manner which is uplifting and not degraded. Personally, I believe we

>should all take a break from the current discussions long enough to

>reestablish a well-wishing attitude. Then, a proper means of discussion

>should be found, amongst well-wishers, that is balanced, compassionate and

>uplifting, patient and reflective, genuine and beneficial. (Simply taking

>offensive language out of the discussion may not be enough).

 

Real compassion is awakening someone from the darkness of ignorance. We

would be committing the greatest violence if we did not challenge our

leaders who seem hell-bent in encouraging devotees in a rush towards

cultural imbecility.

 

>In closing I would like to leave this thought, a quote which I hope is fair

>for me to use (and is not quote-bashing) from Srila Prabhupada's purport (SB

>4.4.13), "A man becomes the greatest soul by accepting the goodness of other's

>qualities, but by unnecessarily considering others' good qualities to be bad,

>you have become the lowest of the fallen souls."

 

Quote bashing or what? Here is something you should consider instead of

the political double speak which seems to qualify one for leadership

positions in ISKCON these days:

 

"Satyam, truthfulness, means that facts should be presented as they are,

for the benefit of others. Facts should not be misrepresented. According to

social conventions, it is said that one can speak the truth only when it is

palatable to others. But that is not truthfulness. The truth should be

spoken in a straightforward way, so that others will understand actually

what the facts are. If a man is a thief and if people are warned that he is

a thief, that is truth. Although sometimes the truth is unpalatable, one

should not refrain from speaking it. Truthfulness demands that the facts be

presented as they are for the benefit of others. That is the definition of

truth." BG 10.4-5

 

Ys. JMd

[Guest guest]

Who is going to waste more time with such statements from those low-minded

Prabhupada imitators?

 

"COM: Jivan Mukta (das) TSI (Back to Basics) (Ontario - CAN)" wrote:

 

> This is completely wrong and completely misrepresents the letters contents.

> ... You are misrepresenting the letter...

 

> ...Why are you twisting the obvious intent of the letter? If you want to

> establish credibility, this is not the way to do it.

 

Mother Sudharma has nothing written about those points in the letter at all,

and

this man condemned her 3 times in a little paragraph. She was just trying to

show the difference between persons like Srila Prabhupada and that other

devotee.

 

No, it is not her, who is misinterpretating, it is you.

 

> >perhaps there is a point here to consider, that we should not be personally

> >and overly involved in the lives of individuals & their family members or

the

> >services of individual devotees they know little or nothing about...like

what

> >has been happening here on internet. (particularly those who are not well

> >wishers )

>

> I again disagree. Anyone who is being considered an authority or is

> already an authority in ISKCON should expect a full and complete scrutiny

> of their personal life especially that their life as an ISKCON devotee.

> Our leaders must be beyond reproach.

 

Wow, that is really powerful and convincing, isn´t it? And who is doing

that scrutiny? You?

 

"NO MERCY FOR AUTHORITIES" or what?

Did you ever heard about BG text 9.30. (...sadhur eva sa mantavyah...)?

Did you ever heard about that statement "mistakes are the pillars for success"?

 

 

> How are you setting proper VAD standards by allowing something even

> Prabhupada ridiculed: women leadership. Prabhupada didn't want women

> attending his VAD College. You insist on denying these most obvious

> directions on social etiquette and instead whitewash everything with

> emotional, feel-good, lovey-dovey mind rot.

 

We already discussed that, isn´t it?

 

Yes, you are a man for facts. No emotions, no sentimentality, right? What?

Srila Prabhupada said, woman can become GBC, TP? "NO, NO, NO, that

is NOT POSSIBLE." That is also an emotion, but this time a bad and hatred one.

 

You are again lying, Prabhu.

 

> Was Malati dd. engaged in prostitution and pimping? If she wasn't then I

> apologize. If she was then I have the right to say that she was a

> full-fledged prostitute and madame after having taken her initiation and

> marriage vows. Will we now be censured for uttered historical facts?

 

Oh God! Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama,

Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare.

 

What is a vaisnava supposed to do after publicly hearing such a statement?

What is Manu-smrti saying?

 

> Actually, our concern is for future generations. The first generation of

> western devotees are so entrenched in the nastiness of western culture that

> it really would be unrealistic to expect too much from them....

 

And it is especially unrealistic to expect to much from you.

 

> "Satyam, truthfulness, means that facts should be presented as they are,

> for the benefit of others. Facts should not be misrepresented. According to

> social conventions, it is said that one can speak the truth only when it is

> palatable to others. But that is not truthfulness. The truth should be

> spoken in a straightforward way, so that others will understand actually

> what the facts are. If a man is a thief and if people are warned that he is

> a thief, that is truth. Although sometimes the truth is unpalatable, one

> should not refrain from speaking it. Truthfulness demands that the facts be

> presented as they are for the benefit of others. That is the definition of

> truth." BG 10.4-5

 

Just see, how those low-class Prabhupada-imitators are understanding those

words. Just see, what they see as "benefits for others".

 

Also interesting is, that here in those statements, we do not hear anything

about

vaisnava etiquette, that younger devotees should not argue with older devotees.

Is it, because Mother Sudharma and Mother Malati, although

Prabhupada-disciples,

are just female devotees and just not worthy for that? Oh, I forgot, those sons

have

to "protect" the elderly mothers from philosophical deviations.

 

I have really some hope, that intelligent devotees with the ability of

discrimination

understand, what is going on here. Please do not discourage me.

 

I will not waste my time anymore with such messages. This was the first and

last

time.

 

your servant

Stoka Krsna dasa

[Guest guest]

On 11 Dec 1998, Stoka Krsna wrote:

 

> I will not waste my time anymore with such messages. This was the first and

> last

> time.

 

 

 

Thank you.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Was Malati dd. engaged in prostitution and pimping? If she wasn't then I

> apologize. If she was then I have the right to say that she was a

> full-fledged prostitute and madame after having taken her initiation and

> marriage vows. Will we now be censured for uttered historical facts?

 

What do Jagai, Madhai, and Malati all have in common? (Besides 2 As and an I

in

their names?)

 

They were brahmans who fell down.

 

What is the difference between Jagai, and Madhai, and Malati?

 

Lord Chaitanya's mercy could purify the former, but was ineffective for the

latter, according to JMD. (This is not a tacit acknowledgement that the

charges

of JMD are accurate)

 

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you Stoka Krishna prabhu, for yet another valuable text.

 

> I have really some hope, that intelligent devotees with the ability of

> discrimination understand, what is going on here. Please do not discourage

> me.

 

I really hope so too.

 

> I will not waste my time anymore with such messages. This was the first

> and last time.

 

It is very nice to see that you take this so serious, and I for one am very

greatful that you wrote your text.

 

I just wonder how long Prisnigarbha prabhu will allow Jivan Mukta and Sita

to go on with their madness on this forum.