RE: Taxes for householder GBC

[Guest guest]

In text 1925418 Hare Krsna dasi wrote:

 

>Sannyasis, especially initiating gurus, are ideal (in the economic sense)

for

>the position of GBC because other people make donations to them which can

be

>used for airfare, accommodations, telecommunications, office expenses,

etc.

 

>How are householder GBC's supposed to maintain their families? If they

come

>from independently wealthy families, that may be helpful, but if we rely

on

>that criteria, then we may lose the talented contributions of devotees

from

>less wealthy backgrounds. (It will be as it is here in Maine, where

legislator

>recieve only a token salary, that only women and wealthy men are

legislators.)

 

>So perhaps we need to begin to think of paying a token tax, at least as a

>beginning, to support GBC members who need to maintain their families. We

>need to pay for training them, too. It is not possible to have good

leaders

>without good training.

 

When I was growing up my parents belonged to a worldwide Catholic

organization that stressed the role of householders in Church objectives

(this intruded in the traditional territory of the priests). Its members

couldn't use Church money (it was--still is--in the hands of the priests)

so they had to use their own. Yes, this limited the participation of some

who couldn't afford the expenses. My parents had to pay for their own

expenses while traveling on assignment domestically and overseas.

 

But the Church always pays for the traveling and maintenance expenses of

priests, bishops and cardinals. In the case of protestant churches the

church does pay for the expenses of householder ministers and officers who

are on church assignments.

 

Thus the difference between the Catholic church and the protestant churches

is that EACH PAYS OR THOSE WHO THEY CONSIDER IMPORTANT. The focus of the

Catholic church is on celibate priests and nuns, so the resources of the

Church (from donations and project funds) are at their disposal. The

Protestant leaders are generally married ministers and so the resources are

for them.

 

So the first thing to do is to establish the overdue importance of

householders in ISKCON, not only in words but in deeds. This hasn't

happened yet. How do you do it? Name a generous number of householders as

GBC's, not only Srila Prabhupada disciples but also the disciples of new

gurus, not only those who are full time ISKCON managers but also those

involved in professional and academic life, etc., not only men but also

women. All of them are important, their potential is great, and their

official recognition has been miser.

 

The money issue then can be resolved. Currently most centralized and

discretionary ISKCON funds are in the hands of sannyasis (they are over 70%

of the GBC, the majority of the gurus and of planning groups). If you

change that composition then the opportunities will be for those who start

to participate.

 

An important point is to redefine the role of discretionary funds such as

guru daksinas. Currently the guru (usually a sannyasi--and always a

sannyasi in the case of the top daksina earners) gets the daksina and

through his unlimited wisdom uses it in whichever way he wants. He pays for

his travel and gadgets and then decides if he will use it also for certain

projects. Some have already decided to invest their daksina in financial

funds (just in case that Krsna is not God after all). The idea should be

that all daksinas and general donations be collected ON BEHALF of specific

projects of Srila Prabhupada's body. This will allow all those involved in

such projects (sannyasis, gurus, householders, women, etc.) to be supported

with their funds according to their participation.

 

Once householders are recognized and discretionary funds are controlled,

then there shouldn't be much objection to the suggestion of M. Hare Krsna

dasi that the communities pitch in for the expenses of the local GBC. This

is BECAUSE EVERYTHING WILL BE TRANSPARENT. One additional point should be

considered to make sure that the congregation will be eager to pitch in:

That the local GBC actually represents the interests and feelings of that

particular community and not that the community is paying a burdensome tax

to perpetuate some medieval peers club.

 

Your servant

Radha Krsna dasa

Mexico City

[Guest guest]

I wonder how guru daksina actually began in Iskcon. Traditionally, guru

daksina is given upon the completion of education, and it is not usually

monetary. When Lord Krishna and Lord Balarama completed Their education

under Sandipani Muni, Their daksine was to bring back the son of Their guru

from the abode of Yamaraja. When the Pandavas and the Kauravas completed

their education under Dronacarya, their daksina was to defeat King Draupada,

so he could fulfil the promise he made to Dronacarya. One time Narada Muni

gave a secret instruction to Queen Satyabhama on how she would become the

most favourite queen of Lord Krishna. Upon the achiement of her goal, Narada

Muni then came and asked for his daksina. Satyabhama said she is ready to

give whatever Narada Muni wants, to which Narada Muni replied he wants the

most valuable object to Satyabhama. Since Krishna is her only valuable

object, she had no alternative but giving Lord Krishna away to Narada Muni

as the payment of her daksina.

 

What I am trying to arrive at is how this whole guru daksina thing got

started in Iskcon. Is someone supposed to give guru daksina immediately

after initiation, or upon successful completion of spiritual education under

a competent spiritual master. Since a particular guru is not really

responsible for the spiritual education of his supposed disciples, but the

institution founded by Srila Prabhupada, what right does a guru in Iskcon

have in collecting daksine from disciples. If someone collects daksina from

a disciple, and the disciple bloops, that guru should return whatever money

or objects he might have collected from that disciple, since he had not

finished a job by which he received payment for.

 

So, in reality, the guru daksina should really belong to the temple that the

disciple is receiving his training. What I have seen in Iskcon over the

years is the cheating and fraudlency of Iskcon gurus who collects money from

the disciples and claims ownership of that money. Nowadays, it is quite

absurd that the sanyassis are far richer than the average grhasthas in the

movement. I think today, if you want to become rich in Iskcon, become a

sanyassi, and a guru, and be very charismatic.

[Guest guest]

>If someone collects daksina from

>a disciple, and the disciple bloops, that guru should return whatever money

>or objects he might have collected from that disciple, since he had not

>finished a job by which he received payment for.

 

He should be a bamk?

[Guest guest]

>If someone collects daksina from

>a disciple, and the disciple bloops, that guru should return whatever

money

>or objects he might have collected from that disciple, since he had not

>finished a job by which he received payment for.

 

This reminds me of an old Greek story. A disciple approached the master to

learn the art of persuation. At the end the master demanded payment. The

student tried to disuade the master not to charge him anything and then

refused to pay.

 

He argued that if the master had taught him well the art of persuation he

would be able to persuade him not to charge anything. But if he couldn't

convince the master this was proof that the master hadn't taught him well,

and that in such a case he didn't owe him anything anyway.

[Guest guest]

>What I am trying to arrive at is how this whole guru daksina thing got

>started in Iskcon. Is someone supposed to give guru daksina immediately

>after initiation, or upon successful completion of spiritual education under

>a competent spiritual master. Since a particular guru is not really

>responsible for the spiritual education of his supposed disciples, but the

>institution founded by Srila Prabhupada, what right does a guru in Iskcon

>have in collecting daksine from disciples. If someone collects daksina from

>a disciple, and the disciple bloops, that guru should return whatever money

>or objects he might have collected from that disciple, since he had not

>finished a job by which he received payment for.

>

>So, in reality, the guru daksina should really belong to the temple that the

>disciple is receiving his training. What I have seen in Iskcon over the

>years is the cheating and fraudlency of Iskcon gurus who collects money from

>the disciples and claims ownership of that money. Nowadays, it is quite

>absurd that the sanyassis are far richer than the average grhasthas in the

>movement. I think today, if you want to become rich in Iskcon, become a

>sanyassi, and a guru, and be very charismatic.

 

Very good points, Prabhu.

 

Ys. JMd

[Guest guest]

> >If someone collects daksina from

> >a disciple, and the disciple bloops, that guru should return whatever

> money

> >or objects he might have collected from that disciple, since he had not

> >finished a job by which he received payment for.

>

> This reminds me of an old Greek story. A disciple approached the master to

> learn the art of persuation. At the end the master demanded payment. The

> student tried to disuade the master not to charge him anything and then

> refused to pay.

>

> He argued that if the master had taught him well the art of persuation he

> would be able to persuade him not to charge anything. But if he couldn't

> convince the master this was proof that the master hadn't taught him well,

> and that in such a case he didn't owe him anything anyway.

 

Dear Prabhu,

 

There seems to be a misunderstanding of my points. The whole vedic education

is based on the guru-disciple relationship, by which a remuneration is paid

by the disciple upon the completion of his education. What education is our

current Iskcon gurus are giving to their disciples from which the disciples

could become self realised?. If the movement is respoonsible as a whole in

training disciples, so, daksina really belongs to the movement, and not to

the guru who chants on the beads or gives thread. As we know, real

initiation means to impart transcendental knowledge by which the disciple

could attain the ultimate goal of life. For that transcendental knowledge,

the disciple is forever grateful to the spiritual master.

[Guest guest]

>Nowadays, it is quite absurd that the sanyassis are far richer

>than the average grhasthas in the movement. I think today, if

>you want to become rich in Iskcon, become a sanyassi, and a

>guru, and be very charismatic.

 

I think the organizer of this conference should reprimand the

devotee who posted this comment, it is out of order.

 

ys ada

[Guest guest]

>>I think the organizer of this conference should reprimand the

devotee who posted this comment, it is out of order.>>

 

 

Yes, maybe, but do we always have to call on authorities? Can't we ever try

to resolve things between ourselves first?

 

Just a suggestion.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

> >Nowadays, it is quite absurd that the sanyassis are far richer

> >than the average grhasthas in the movement. I think today, if

> >you want to become rich in Iskcon, become a sanyassi, and a

> >guru, and be very charismatic.

>

> I think the organizer of this conference should reprimand the

> devotee who posted this comment, it is out of order.

>

> ys ada

 

Why don't you send your comment detailing how it's out of order. I have

received quite a bit of favourable comment from several devotees. This

feeling is shared by quite a few devotees. If you feel it is wrong, then I

am open to what you have to say. But should not be in heavyhanded approach,

as is common nowardays on COM.

 

Ys, Isvara Dasa.