some suggestions

[Guest guest]

Pamho to all devotees, AgtSP!

 

In this text I'll try to express some suggestions for this

conference. Of course, it's up to you to consider them seriously

or not. But I hope you'll find a piece of common sense in

my thoughts.

 

1) Just in these two weeks I've got more than 1000 texts and

over 3 megabytes in COM conferences. What a waterfall! Needless

to say what was a cause of that. The GHQ case, undoubtly, gives

us some enlightment what happens behind some curtains. But I'll

speak about it a bit later. The point here is that it was

extremely difficult to read ALL the letters for majority and

there was no use of that. I tried my best, but failed there.

And one of causes was in a design of many letters.. Some texts

have got a subject, which has no connection with their contents.

And the biggest problem - quotes. Many, too many letters include

an ENTIRE quote of previous letter. It's just a waste of our time,

attention, and expands time, spent on Internet. Someone uses

Internet for free, but I'm not. Just consider, what kind of

feeling others are getting, when we quote a 20 Kb letter and

write below: "Well spoken. ys". Please, please, please, don't do

like that.

 

2) Basu Ghosh Prabhu has a biggest mouth indeed (no offence). It

amuses me to see that a half of my mail has been sent by him.

Thank you, Basu Ghosh Prabhu, although I didn't deserve so much

mercy from you. So mainly he repeats his old statements, and he

is not the only one, who are doing it. C'mon, you think nobody

knows this psychological trick? You say your opinion, than

politely listen to other's opinion, say: "Yes, very well spoken,

thank you" and repeat your statement without any changes, fully

ignoring words of others. You do it several times, and when your

opponent becomes confused, you won. I'm tired also of receiving

that single quote, about Sati and Shiva. It seems that Basu

Ghosh Prabhu has accepted a severe vow - till his last days he

will be sending to Varnasrama this quote. Please, since you are

so advanced brahmana, do it in your mind, and you'll gain the

same result.

 

3) The GHQ case. Huh, just hearing of these words is heavy,

yeah? I can understand some feelings (of course, not all) of

mothers, who were offended in such a harsh way. Sure 'feminist'

is an offensive word, if someone would call me 'a communist', I

would also be offended. Especially when this happens in ISKCON,

where we supposed to treat each other as a vaisnavas. I'll not

indulge in this discussion, there were many words spoken by

Jatukarnya, Prsnigarbha, RK MX and others, so I have just to agree.

Still the interesting thing is that I didn't find any words of

asking forgiveness from any GHQ members yet. Jivan Mukta, Jaya

Tirtha Caran and others, who named women as whores, prostitutes

and n##gers, didn't wrote even hints, "I'm sorry", or I missed

it somewhere? Obviously, there is a lack of culture. A person

may be very learned and possess many nice qualities, but when a

culture is missing, everything is ruined. Anyway, as many

devotees noticed, we are going in circles there. The GHQ members

didn't change their opinions, and I personally think that it

will take many years, if not more, for them to view in another

angle. Anyway, it is very rare when a person changes his solid

views in few weeks. Thus a discussion will not bring a mutual

benefit.

 

4) I've such an impression, that in many discussions here Srila

Prabhupada becomes some kind of principle, or a totem, in other

words, something impersonal, when he was a person, a great

person first of all. Is there somebody else, who has same

feelings?

 

5) I didn't understand words of Bir Krishna Maharaja "That was

all mistake". First I read about "a strong disapproval"

statement by NA Executive Committee, and then "it was all

mistake". What was a mistake? Does it mean that GHQ was not so

bad after all? Or there were some 'untouchable' persons?

 

6) Some observations from periphery:

I was thinking about how we, local devotees, estimate person in

his advancement on the devotional path. So I've found

interesting conclusion: most common for present are some simple

mathematic rules:

GBC = pure devotee

sannyasi = pure devotee

guru = pure devotee

 

And there some rules, which are a little bit less manifested:

temple president = pure devotee

any authority = absolute authority

all sankirtana devotees = mahajanas

 

advancement = (years_in_ISKON) * (titles_or_position)

 

(short version of formula)

I've been 8 years in ISKCON, and I've not got any title or high

position, so my advancement = 8 * 0 = 0. Something like that.

It seems very often we defined person in accordance with it's

role in administative structure in ISKCON. But advancement of

devotee is not defined by some council or board, it's done by

Krishna Himself, no?

 

7) "Blind" Samba case. I have doubts that this starting

discussion should be on public forum, 'cause I already felt

disgust of Guru Gauranga's words and don't want to hear

blaspheme on women anymore. I just think that maybe Samba Prabhu

should to bring an action against Guru Gauranga legally, and

inform government authorities. Why to wait when GBC or other

ISKCON authorities will find time for this case? Another thing

is how it should be done properly, then there is a need of

lawyer advice.

 

8) If such a gentle woman, as mother Sraddha, voice up about

castrating child abusers, I cannot remain silent. First, if you

gonna castrate someone, you have to be 100% sure that he is

confirmed abuser, 'cause you cannot make it back. Then what

if abuser is a woman, I don't know how you gonna castrate her.

Anyway, it just sounds good, but as far as I know no one ever

did that, since it is not allowed, and government can become

very upset with ISKCON memebers. Actually it's very interesting

point, in varnasrama ksatryas were supposed to inflict proper

punishment to those, who deserved. Ok, so when in ISKCON

varansrama will be established, our ksatriyas will be limited

in punishment, due to external laws. In fact, the biggest

punishment what ISKCON can do, is removal and dissociation from

ISKCON.

 

All right, all right, I'll finish here. I hope that no one did

feel offened by my words, if you did - just say to yourslef:

"Ah, anyway, it's just unknown stupid bhakta - what should we

expect of him?". I promise I'll answer to your comments, but if

you want some hot-tempered fights, I'll dissapoint you.

 

Your humble servant,

beta Oleg.

[Guest guest]

At 7:19 -0800 12/15/98, COM: (Bhakta) Oleg Demtchenko (Nikolaev - RU) wrote:

 

Dear Bhakta Oleg Prabhu,

 

Pamho. AgtSP! Well spoken. Thank you for summarizing so many issues so

succinctly (and I won't reproduce your whole letter before saying that

;-)). I agree with virtually everything you said.

 

Two short comments:

 

1. Yes, the statements by the North American GBC executive officers and

later Bir Krsna Maharaja's statements may have seemed confusing. The way I

understand it,it was really just a semantics issue. The officers did

register their disapproval of the language used in GHQ and still stand

behind that statement (reproduced below). However, this does not,

technically speaking, amount to a censure. Although I'm not really sure of

the definition of "censure", I think it involves a more thorough

investigation and some consequence for the guilty party. The statement by

the NAGBC was simply a disapproval and protest. That's where the mistake

was.

 

2. Re the issue about Samba and Guru Gauranga prabhus. I wrote to the

North American child protection office. Its director, Dhira Govinda

prabhu, wrote me a very nice letter back telling me that he was aware of

the case, a formal complaint *has* been made and they are in the midst of

an investigation. I agree that this conference was not the correct forum

for this, but I can't say I fault Samba prabhu either after how he was

provoked and his wife was slandered.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

 

Here is the statement. You will see it says nothing about any censure.

 

STATEMENT BY THE NORTH AMERICAN EXECUTIVE OFFICERS

 

The North American GBC/Temple President Executive Officers wish to voice

our strong disapproval of, and our protest against, the demeaning and ill

intended statements made by some members of the GHQ com conference that

were recently brought to public attention.

 

It is our firm position that Srila Prabhupada, the Founder-acarya of

ISKCON, intended his Hare Krishna Movement to be free from all prejudice,

sexism, racism and other forms of bigotry.

 

We affirm that the first and foremost principle of our society is that all

people (indeed all sentient beings) are eternal, sacred parts and parcels

of the Supreme Lord Sri Krishna, and as such should be respected and

affirmed in their individual relationship with the Lord, as well as their

service to guru and Krishna.

 

Multiple statements made by members of this Internet conference ridicule,

berate and vilify women, other minorities, and individual Vaishnava

devotees. They document an organized attempt to prevent women from their

God-given rights of self expression and service to Srila Prabhupada. We

denounce such views. They are opposed to the core values and principles of

Vaishnava culture which uphold the devotional offerings of all souls as

sacred and worthy of our respect and protection.

 

While we endorse open debate and dialogue within our Krishna Consciousness

movement, we must speak out against any discussion that crosses the line

of decency, morality, and Vaishnava etiquette and supports an agenda to

exploit or minimize a section of our society.

 

Bir Krishna Goswami, Chairperson

Anuttama Dasa

Sudharma Dasi

Vraja Lila Dasi