RE: Gita revisions

April 4, 1999

Dear bhagavat Purana Prabhu,

The quotes that you present can actually be used to support the

opposite--that the revisions to the Gita were unfounded. You quote Srila

Prabhupada as saying "Your changes which I have seen" simply tell us that

Srila Prabhupada was here to approve whatever changes were made to his

books or rectify them if wrong. Also Srila Prabhupada says: "Whatever he

does is approved by me," but that didn't mean that Jayadvaita Sw. could

just go around editing anything. Whatever editing was made was part of a

BBT program approved by Srila Prabhupada. Also, if Jayadvaita already did

the editing when Srila Prabhupada was present and Srila Prabhupada approved

it, that doesn't imply that the text can be edited again and again,

specially after Srila Prabhupada's dissapearance. Otherwise lets have

Jayadvaita edit the Gita today again. I am sure that he is more competent

of an editor today than 15-20 years ago. But that is not the point. That

has never being the point. What devotees want to know is when did Srila

Prabhupada order a revised, reedited, "new" Gita.

If you dig you will find that the order to revise the Gita came after Srila

Prabhupada dissapeared, and that it came mostly from people long gone from

ISKCON due to their incapacity to carry on his movement and who advocated

the "eleven acaryas" heresy that has created so much damage to ISKCON.

In relation to the second quote that you present it is the same thing.

Srila Prabhupada says "make it perfect" which can be interpreted in so many

different ways. For example we can take the Gita manuscripts to an editor

in New York who is much more competent that Jayadvaita and make it look

more "perfect." Someone may try to versify it arguing that the sanskrit is

in verse and that actually Srila Prabhupada never said anything against it.

So where do you stop? Or again, I am sure that Jayadvaita is more competent

today as an editor that in the early eighties, so let him reedit it again

and again, and "make it perfect." Srila Prabhupada already considered the

Gita good enough and was proud of it. He never ordered it to be reedited to

the extent that it was done. And we could do the same in relation to other

great acaryas. For example why not reedit Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati

Prabhupada's writings to make them easier to read (and thus more perfect).

Even in the secular world an author may reedit his books as much as he

wants, but after his/her departure the books are kept the way the author

left them. This happens even with ordinary authors, then what to say in the

case of Srila Prabhupada whose works are meant to benefit the whole world.

How can they be manipulated and rearranged freely without the benefit that

even a mundane author receives. You don't seem to understand it. And I am

not blaming Jayadvaita for this, it was the system.

So you will have to come up with better quotes if you want to support the

new, better and perfected Gita.

YS RK Mex

------------------------------

-----Mensaje original-----

De: COM: Bhagavata-purana (das) (Bologna - I)

[sMTP:Bhagavata-purana (AT) com (DOT) bbt.se]

Enviado el: Domingo 4 de Abril de 1999 7:57 AM

Para: COM: Varnasrama development

Asunto: Gita revisions

[Text 2207868 from COM]

> CONCERNING THE EDITING OF JAYADVAITA PRABHU, WHATEVER HE DOES IS APPROVED

> BY ME. I HAVE CONFIDENCE IN HIM. Your changes which I have seen of the

> sanskrit synonyms is also approved by me. Tanmayataya refers to the fact

> that the trees and the father were absorbed in the same feeling

> IT IS NOT OUR PHILOSOPHY TO PRINT ERRORS. Of course,

> our spiritual subject matter is transcendental and therefore it remains

> potent despite mistakes in grammar, spelling, etc. BUT THIS TYPE OF

> TRANSLATION MAY ONLY BE ALLOWED IF THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO CORRECT IT,

> then it is all right. BUT IF YOU KNOW THE CORRECT ORDER, THEN YOU MUST

> MAKE IT PERFECT. That is our philosophy: everything perfect for Krishna.

I think that these quotes solve the whole question and have not been

refuted satisfactorily by anyone. At this point, the only criticism that

could be done to Jayadvaita Swami?s work would be to check one by one his

revisions and either offer better versions or defend Hayagriva?s versions.

In his conference, Jayadvaita Swami offers all the keys to do that serious

work.

Christian philologists have the Concordated Bibles and other instruments

for specialists. An annotated Bhagavad-Gita would be such an instrument for

devotee scholars, but for general people, it would only create doubts about

our Scriptures.

Ys

Bhagavata-Purana Dasa

April 5, 1999

In text 2210273 Bhagavat-purana wrote:

> Do you think that in the next 10.000 years Srila Prabhupada?s books will

> not be adapted to the different standards of langue evolution? It?s the

same

Of course they have to be adapted to the changes in the language so that

people can understand them. But lets wait 100, 200 years or even more for

that. Most versions of the Bible in the Western languages are up to 500

years old and can be understood perfectly well. Basically all works of the

XIX and XVIII centuries can be understood without any revision. What you

are trying to justify is the revision of the Gita within months of Srila

Prabhupada's departure. Are you implying that people could no longer

understand Srila Prabhupada's original unabridged edition (with corrections

directly attributed to Srila Prabhupada) anymore? Did the new edition

provide an understanding of the Gita which the original edition could no

longer give us? Or, was it simply messing around with Srila Prabhupada's

work in a "new" ISKCON that relativized, desecrated and concocted so many

things?

YS RK Mex

April 5, 1999

Do you think that in the next 10.000 years Srila Prabhupada´s books will

not be adapted to the different standards of langue evolution? It´s the same

as say that we should be speaking latin or sanscrit at the present. They

would be adapted and readapted to different times and places, as they have

been already translated into different langues and have maintained all of

their effectivity in converting people in devotees.

Jayadvaita Swami or Dravida Dasa´s work in the edition of Srila

Prabhupada´s books is really a great benefit for future generations.

If there is some resentment against past or present bad leaders, it´s

another thing, but it´s better no to throw the child with the unclean water.

Ys

BHagavata-Purana Dasa

April 5, 1999

> Do you think that in the next 10.000 years Srila Prabhupada´s books will

> not be adapted to the different standards of langue evolution? It´s the

> same as say that we should be speaking latin or sanscrit at the present.

> They would be adapted and readapted to different times and places, as they

> have been already translated into different langues and have maintained

> all of their effectivity in converting people in devotees.

> Jayadvaita Swami or Dravida Dasa´s work in the edition of Srila

> Prabhupada´s books is really a great benefit for future generations. If

> there is some resentment against past or present bad leaders, it´s another

> thing, but it´s better no to throw the child with the unclean water.

I think that if ISKCON is to survive, and remain Srila Prabhupada's

movement, then it is essential that the members can see that Srila

Prabhupada's books are not changed according to the whims of one or two

persons. The changes may even be corrrect, but since there are so many who

have strong feelings for these books, and since Srila Prabhupada is no

longer on the planet, it is important that it is clearly shown to everyone

that this job is done in a proper way. And it will be up to each individual

whether they still accept the new edition as Srila Prabhupada's Bhagavad

Gita or not.

Ys

Jkd

April 5, 1999

"COM: Bhagavata-purana (das) (Bologna - I)" wrote:

> [Text 2210273 from COM]

>

> Do you think that in the next 10.000 years Srila Prabhupada´s books will

> not be adapted to the different standards of langue evolution? It´s the same

> as say that we should be speaking latin or sanscrit at the present. They

> would be adapted and readapted to different times and places, as they have

> been already translated into different langues and have maintained all of

> their effectivity in converting people in devotees.

Certainly it will change. But the point you seem to be dancing around is that

it should be noted that it is a change. Jayadvaita's Gita is a revised edition

and should be labeled as such. Bhagavad Gita as It Is Revised Edition.

Fairly

commonly scholastic prodecure, especially as most of the changes are

scholastic

in nature.

As for potency, in the recent BBT settlement, the rights to print the

original

Gita have been given over to another group. So we can be assured that it will

be available and the fruits of these different Gita's will be interesting to

observe in about 10 years.

Significant in a different way, is that the one thing Srila Prabhupada did

feel

strongly enough to comment on was the "cattle raising" to "cow protection"

issue. If you buy blood milk, that is a product of cattle raising.

Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 8: Chapter Twenty-four, Text 5 :PURPORT

Without protection of cows, brahminical culture cannot be maintained;

and without brahminical culture, the aim of life cannot be fulfilled.

Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 1: Chapter Nineteen, Text ; :PURPORT

Cow protection means feeding the brahminical culture, which leads towards

God consciousness, and thus perfection of human civilization is achieved.

We see the difficulty the movement is having with gurus, revising books, etc,

all of which are details of brahminical culture. It is one thing changing the

translation to cow protection, it is quite another to change your lifestyle to

follow it.

April 5, 1999

At 6:46 -0800 4/5/99, COM: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New Vrindavan - USA)

wrote:

>

>Certainly it will change. But the point you seem to be dancing around is that

>it should be noted that it is a change. Jayadvaita's Gita is a revised

>edition

>and should be labeled as such. Bhagavad Gita as It Is Revised Edition.

>Fairly commonly scholastic prodecure, especially as most of the changes are

>scholastic in nature.

So simple and makes so much sense. Even I, who have advocated an edition

with many more changes than the present one (incl. the use of non-sexist

language) for preachers in academe, would feel perfectly fine with such a

solution. So would the scholars reading the revised version. They know that

old texts are routinely changed for language clarity, but do expect to be

informed.

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

April 5, 1999

On 04 Apr 1999, Radha-Krishna das wrote:

> books or rectify them if wrong. Also Srila Prabhupada says: "Whatever he

does is approved by me," but that didn't mean that Jayadvaita Sw. could ...

> So you will have to come up with better quotes if you want to support the

> new, better and perfected Gita.

Either you accept the letter AS IT IS without your own judgement or don't

accept letters as evidence.

...

> has never being the point. What devotees want to know is when did Srila

> Prabhupada order a revised, reedited, "new" Gita.

> If you dig you will find that the order to revise the Gita came after Srila

> Prabhupada dissapeared, and that it came mostly from people long gone from

...

(1) Srila Prabhupada followed Krsna and his spiritual master

(2) Srila Prabhupada AUTHORIZED the GBC to act his behalf

(3) GBC ordered a new edition

(4) Jayadvaita performed the service

(5) GBC approved it

(6) Since GBC was authorized to act on Prabhupada's behalf, Prabhupada

approved it.

(7) Krsna approved it.

"Krsna makes up for the mistakes of his pure devotees." so which statement do

you disagree with above? How can Jayadvaita's service be not accepted if he

followed Prabhupada's advice of following the GBC?

> Srila Prabhupada says "make it perfect" which can be interpreted in so many

> different ways.

No, only when GBC authorizes to make it perfect, then you make it perfect.

ys,

Virender

http://www.krishnasoft.com

April 6, 1999

>

> (1) Srila Prabhupada followed Krsna and his spiritual master

> (2) Srila Prabhupada AUTHORIZED the GBC to act his behalf

> (3) GBC ordered a new edition

> (4) Jayadvaita performed the service

> (5) GBC approved it

> (6) Since GBC was authorized to act on Prabhupada's behalf, Prabhupada

> approved it.

> (7) Krsna approved it.

>

You could tell us your message simpler, directly. In one

single point or rule (that summarizes the old ISKCON disease):

"RULE:

In ISKCON, whatever is officially done by or approved by the ISKCON

authorities (with the GBC on top), it is of divine character and it

is bona fide (i.e. approved by God, Sri Krsna)."

And, naturally, who ever dares to show any doubts in this paradigm

he is to be exposed as an atheist.

However, I don't think that ISKCON is presently exclusive in this

regard. A kind of similar propaganda goes on the Serbian

National TV, regarding their following the leadership (with

Mr. Slobodan Milosevic on top). So, whatever they do is just perfect

and right simply if it comes from the top head of the state.

Simple logic for simple people (or shall we say it - brainless

people)

*** Please NOTICE one thing - I am not comparing here anybody in

ISKCON with anybody else anywhere, nor finding some similarities

in *that* regard. What I am comparing are the *ideas* and *paradigms*

that are not really new to me as an ISKCON devotee, and that *you*,

Virender Dayal, are smearing with over our faces. ***

(to say it clearly at least, before you eventually try to expose me

for this as an atheist, or unbeliever of Krsna)

> "Krsna makes up for the mistakes of his pure devotees." so which statement

> do you disagree with above? How can Jayadvaita's service be not accepted

> if he followed Prabhupada's advice of following the GBC?

>

I do not have here any intention to discuss Jayadvaita's service

in particular. Just the general part of your statement. And that

is, again, this old and sick paradigm that "He is a pure devotee

of Krsna, since he is following the ISKCON authorites, therefore

there can't be question of that person's ("pure devotee's") service

not being accepted by Krsna."

> > Srila Prabhupada says "make it perfect" which can be interpreted in so

> > many different ways.

>

> No, only when GBC authorizes to make it perfect, then you make it perfect.

>

Yes. More of RTS, please.

(RTS = Radio-TV-Serbia)

ys mnd

April 19, 1999

On 04 Apr 1999, Radha-Krishna das wrote:

> Dear bhagavat Purana Prabhu,

> The quotes that you present can actually be used to support the

> opposite--that the revisions to the Gita were unfounded. You quote Srila

> Prabhupada as saying "Your changes which I have seen" simply tell us that

> Srila Prabhupada was here to approve whatever changes were made to his

> books or rectify them if wrong.

The clear, simple understanding of the quote is that Prabhupada wanted

mistakes removed from the books and that he approved of Maharaja's ongoing

work. Without getting 1 inch from the tree and not seeing the rest of the

forest, "does" in "WHATEVER HE DOES IS APPROVED BY ME. I HAVE CONFIDENCE IN

HIM", means "in the future".

By no means is this a carte blanche for Maharaja to do as he pleases with no

oversight. That would be a tough argument. Nor does it mean that Maharaja has

a full compliment of public relations and customer-service kinds of skills.

Nor that the GBC couldn't stop him (with cause) in the future.

I'm a little out of touch here. I'm only here right now as an escape from

writing a paper on SNMP and RMON. Do people still think we should put the

"planet of trees" back in the Gita? Can't you Prabhus talk about something

else?

This is like a bad B-movie from 1958 that's become a cult-favorite; another

Rocky Horror Picture show, "Let's doooo the tiiime-waaarp agaiiiiiiin...".

It's another re-run of... "The Attack of the Gita-Killing Swami", with Ronald

Reagan fighting off the evil Swami to save all the typos and mangled syntax

with no regard for their origin, and securing their place in the Gita for

eternity, and thus, saving the world from the corruption of good grammar and

from the original tapes, all the while also protecting run-on sentences and

all forms of verbosity from mistreatment from all enemies, both foreign and

domestic.

And in a month or two, we can go over it all yet again. I mean, it's all

ever-fresh right? I mean, it's all ever-fresh right? I mean, it's all

ever-fresh right? I mean, it's all ever-fresh right?

All glories to Ronald Reagan!

YS JvGs

> > CONCERNING THE EDITING OF JAYADVAITA PRABHU, WHATEVER HE DOES IS APPROVED

> > BY ME. I HAVE CONFIDENCE IN HIM. Your changes which I have seen of the

> > sanskrit synonyms is also approved by me. Tanmayataya refers to the fact

> > that the trees and the father were absorbed in the same feeling

>

> > IT IS NOT OUR PHILOSOPHY TO PRINT ERRORS. Of course,

> > our spiritual subject matter is transcendental and therefore it remains

> > potent despite mistakes in grammar, spelling, etc. BUT THIS TYPE OF

> > TRANSLATION MAY ONLY BE ALLOWED IF THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO CORRECT IT,

> > then it is all right. BUT IF YOU KNOW THE CORRECT ORDER, THEN YOU MUST

> > MAKE IT PERFECT. That is our philosophy: everything perfect for Krishna.

April 19, 1999