Guest guest Posted April 25, 1999 Report Share Posted April 25, 1999 "COM: Trayimaya (das) HKS (Aarhus - DK)" wrote: > [Text 2264551 from COM] > > This is news for me. > I´ve heard of poorly managed cows in ISKCON and I thought this is what was > rumoured about - but cowslaughter?! > Another veiled aspect of ISKCON (hopefully) past? > Is this true, and if, what is the story, anybody? > > Your servant Trayimaya dasa This is a hideous gross lie, at least as far as New Vrindaban goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 1999 Report Share Posted April 25, 1999 "COM: Trayimaya (das) HKS (Aarhus - DK)" wrote: > [Text 2264551 from COM] > > This is news for me. > I´ve heard of poorly managed cows in ISKCON and I thought this is what was > rumoured about - but cowslaughter?! > Another veiled aspect of ISKCON (hopefully) past? > Is this true, and if, what is the story, anybody? > > Your servant Trayimaya dasa This is a hideous gross lie, at least as far as New Vrindaban goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 1999 Report Share Posted April 25, 1999 > > This is a hideous gross lie, at least as far as New Vrindaban goes. > > I guess that means the insinuation that there is a meat processing plant on the farm is not true. At least Mr. Coupe has assured us you were not involved in this alleged business, to the best of his currently available knowledge. At the very least it appears that your are not a woman with illicit desires to carry a danda, which might be the only thing that could be considered even worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 1999 Report Share Posted April 25, 1999 > > This is a hideous gross lie, at least as far as New Vrindaban goes. > > I guess that means the insinuation that there is a meat processing plant on the farm is not true. At least Mr. Coupe has assured us you were not involved in this alleged business, to the best of his currently available knowledge. At the very least it appears that your are not a woman with illicit desires to carry a danda, which might be the only thing that could be considered even worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 1999 Report Share Posted April 25, 1999 On 25 Apr 1999, Madhusudani Radha wrote: > At 2:44 -0800 4/25/99, COM: Jatukarnya (das) CI (Cintamani Intl, Oslo - N) > wrote: > >I have to admit that this makes me curious, too. But I can understand it if > >this is not the proper forum to discuss it. Yes, we can discuss what is male and what is female as relevant topics but not cow slaughter. By the way, it is not the accusation of one member but rather the position of the Iskcon Minister of Agriculture. Doesn't that have any merit for you? Is cow protection not part of varnasrama? Have you read the Bhagavad Gita? > > I don't know what the proper forum is, but it certainly felt improper to > read such an accusation in the context of one member wanting to discredit > another member during a discussion of a completely different topic. Such is the madness of the varnasrama conference and the Internet in general. > > Prsni Prabhu? What do you think? Should we discuss accusations of cow > slaughter in ISKCON here, or would you rather that discussion move to e.g > the cow protection conference? If such a discussion is to take place, are > there any ground rules to keep it somewhat sane? Yes, Prsni dasi is certainly the person we want to find out from in regards to what is sane and what is not. Hopefully, whatever decision is made we can follow it on all strings of conversation/discussion. I would think that coming to an understanding of the evils of the dairy business is important to varnasrama development since it has dragged down practically every project in the movement. Perhaps we can start handing out condoms to the bulls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 1999 Report Share Posted April 25, 1999 On 25 Apr 1999, Madhusudani Radha wrote: > At 2:44 -0800 4/25/99, COM: Jatukarnya (das) CI (Cintamani Intl, Oslo - N) > wrote: > >I have to admit that this makes me curious, too. But I can understand it if > >this is not the proper forum to discuss it. Yes, we can discuss what is male and what is female as relevant topics but not cow slaughter. By the way, it is not the accusation of one member but rather the position of the Iskcon Minister of Agriculture. Doesn't that have any merit for you? Is cow protection not part of varnasrama? Have you read the Bhagavad Gita? > > I don't know what the proper forum is, but it certainly felt improper to > read such an accusation in the context of one member wanting to discredit > another member during a discussion of a completely different topic. Such is the madness of the varnasrama conference and the Internet in general. > > Prsni Prabhu? What do you think? Should we discuss accusations of cow > slaughter in ISKCON here, or would you rather that discussion move to e.g > the cow protection conference? If such a discussion is to take place, are > there any ground rules to keep it somewhat sane? Yes, Prsni dasi is certainly the person we want to find out from in regards to what is sane and what is not. Hopefully, whatever decision is made we can follow it on all strings of conversation/discussion. I would think that coming to an understanding of the evils of the dairy business is important to varnasrama development since it has dragged down practically every project in the movement. Perhaps we can start handing out condoms to the bulls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 1999 Report Share Posted April 25, 1999 > Prsni Prabhu? What do you think? Should we discuss accusations of cow > slaughter in ISKCON here, or would you rather that discussion move to e.g > the cow protection conference? If such a discussion is to take place, > are there any ground rules to keep it somewhat sane? > > Ys, > Madhusudani dasi No need in discussing accusations. Are there some facts? A story to be told and learned from. The discussion in principle belongs to both varnasrama- and cowprotection conferences. Varnasrama is very much based on cowprotection. ys Trayimaya dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 1999 Report Share Posted April 25, 1999 > Prsni Prabhu? What do you think? Should we discuss accusations of cow > slaughter in ISKCON here, or would you rather that discussion move to e.g > the cow protection conference? If such a discussion is to take place, > are there any ground rules to keep it somewhat sane? > > Ys, > Madhusudani dasi No need in discussing accusations. Are there some facts? A story to be told and learned from. The discussion in principle belongs to both varnasrama- and cowprotection conferences. Varnasrama is very much based on cowprotection. ys Trayimaya dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 1999 Report Share Posted April 25, 1999 At 2:44 -0800 4/25/99, COM: Jatukarnya (das) CI (Cintamani Intl, Oslo - N) wrote: >I have to admit that this makes me curious, too. But I can understand it if >this is not the proper forum to discuss it. I don't know what the proper forum is, but it certainly felt improper to read such an accusation in the context of one member wanting to discredit another member during a discussion of a completely different topic. Prsni Prabhu? What do you think? Should we discuss accusations of cow slaughter in ISKCON here, or would you rather that discussion move to e.g the cow protection conference? If such a discussion is to take place, are there any ground rules to keep it somewhat sane? Ys, Madhusudani dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 1999 Report Share Posted April 25, 1999 At 2:44 -0800 4/25/99, COM: Jatukarnya (das) CI (Cintamani Intl, Oslo - N) wrote: >I have to admit that this makes me curious, too. But I can understand it if >this is not the proper forum to discuss it. I don't know what the proper forum is, but it certainly felt improper to read such an accusation in the context of one member wanting to discredit another member during a discussion of a completely different topic. Prsni Prabhu? What do you think? Should we discuss accusations of cow slaughter in ISKCON here, or would you rather that discussion move to e.g the cow protection conference? If such a discussion is to take place, are there any ground rules to keep it somewhat sane? Ys, Madhusudani dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 1999 Report Share Posted April 25, 1999 > I don't know what the proper forum is, but it certainly felt improper to > read such an accusation in the context of one member wanting to discredit > another member during a discussion of a completely different topic. > > Prsni Prabhu? What do you think? Should we discuss accusations of cow > slaughter in ISKCON here, or would you rather that discussion move to e.g > the cow protection conference? If such a discussion is to take place, > are there any ground rules to keep it somewhat sane? Since there is already a conference for that specific topic, I think the discussions should be there. Everyone interested in that will already be in the conference, and ready to partake in the discussion. There is no use discussing something which has a particular conference, in another conference. ys Prisni dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 1999 Report Share Posted April 25, 1999 > I don't know what the proper forum is, but it certainly felt improper to > read such an accusation in the context of one member wanting to discredit > another member during a discussion of a completely different topic. > > Prsni Prabhu? What do you think? Should we discuss accusations of cow > slaughter in ISKCON here, or would you rather that discussion move to e.g > the cow protection conference? If such a discussion is to take place, > are there any ground rules to keep it somewhat sane? Since there is already a conference for that specific topic, I think the discussions should be there. Everyone interested in that will already be in the conference, and ready to partake in the discussion. There is no use discussing something which has a particular conference, in another conference. ys Prisni dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 1999 Report Share Posted April 26, 1999 > > At 2:44 -0800 4/25/99, COM: Jatukarnya (das) CI (Cintamani Intl, Oslo - > > N) wrote: > > >I have to admit that this makes me curious, too. But I can understand > > >it if this is not the proper forum to discuss it. > > Yes, we can discuss what is male and what is female as relevant topics but > not cow slaughter. The way you threw out your accusation, I thought that it could be wise to try to cool it down a little. Now things have happened anyway, and it seems like your first accusation was pretty weakly founded. > By the way, it is not the accusation of one member but > rather the position of the Iskcon Minister of Agriculture. Doesn't that > have any merit for you? Well, ISCOWP have already submitted their comment now, and it was not entirely negative towards New Vrindavana or the devotees you accused. Doesn't that have any merit for you? > Is cow protection not part of varnasrama? It is an important part of varnasrama. I am happy that the discussion has gone on here. As usual, you attack before checking out what I meant. I am sure I am not the only one who feel like I have been unreasonably attacked by you the last 2 weeks. >Have you > read the Bhagavad Gita? Bhagavad what? Never heard of it. > > I don't know what the proper forum is, but it certainly felt improper to > > read such an accusation in the context of one member wanting to > > discredit another member during a discussion of a completely different > > topic. > > Such is the madness of the varnasrama conference and the Internet in > general. Was that an apologize? Or do you blame internet for your mistakes? Or maybe the varnasrama development conferance is to blame? > > Prsni Prabhu? What do you think? Should we discuss accusations of cow > > slaughter in ISKCON here, or would you rather that discussion move to > > e.g the cow protection conference? If such a discussion is to take > > place, are there any ground rules to keep it somewhat sane? > > Yes, Prsni dasi is certainly the person we want to find out from in > regards to what is sane and what is not. You are always polite and respectful. That is very nice about you. If you did not know it, Prsni is the organizer of this conferance, and that was the reason why Madhusudhani asked Prsni. > Hopefully, whatever decision is > made we can follow it on all strings of conversation/discussion. I would > think that coming to an understanding of the evils of the dairy business > is important to varnasrama development since it has dragged down > practically every project in the movement. If such a discussion could be held without you throwing your accusations and attacks out left and right, then I agree that we can all benefit from it. But it is tough for many on this forum to associate with you as it is now. > Perhaps we can start handing out condoms to the bulls. I actually think that was a funny joke. I see that you can be funny, and you have good points. But you don't seem to see that anyone else have good points, and you don't get their jokes. How do you think you will be acepted on this forum with such a mood? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 1999 Report Share Posted April 26, 1999 > > At 2:44 -0800 4/25/99, COM: Jatukarnya (das) CI (Cintamani Intl, Oslo - > > N) wrote: > > >I have to admit that this makes me curious, too. But I can understand > > >it if this is not the proper forum to discuss it. > > Yes, we can discuss what is male and what is female as relevant topics but > not cow slaughter. The way you threw out your accusation, I thought that it could be wise to try to cool it down a little. Now things have happened anyway, and it seems like your first accusation was pretty weakly founded. > By the way, it is not the accusation of one member but > rather the position of the Iskcon Minister of Agriculture. Doesn't that > have any merit for you? Well, ISCOWP have already submitted their comment now, and it was not entirely negative towards New Vrindavana or the devotees you accused. Doesn't that have any merit for you? > Is cow protection not part of varnasrama? It is an important part of varnasrama. I am happy that the discussion has gone on here. As usual, you attack before checking out what I meant. I am sure I am not the only one who feel like I have been unreasonably attacked by you the last 2 weeks. >Have you > read the Bhagavad Gita? Bhagavad what? Never heard of it. > > I don't know what the proper forum is, but it certainly felt improper to > > read such an accusation in the context of one member wanting to > > discredit another member during a discussion of a completely different > > topic. > > Such is the madness of the varnasrama conference and the Internet in > general. Was that an apologize? Or do you blame internet for your mistakes? Or maybe the varnasrama development conferance is to blame? > > Prsni Prabhu? What do you think? Should we discuss accusations of cow > > slaughter in ISKCON here, or would you rather that discussion move to > > e.g the cow protection conference? If such a discussion is to take > > place, are there any ground rules to keep it somewhat sane? > > Yes, Prsni dasi is certainly the person we want to find out from in > regards to what is sane and what is not. You are always polite and respectful. That is very nice about you. If you did not know it, Prsni is the organizer of this conferance, and that was the reason why Madhusudhani asked Prsni. > Hopefully, whatever decision is > made we can follow it on all strings of conversation/discussion. I would > think that coming to an understanding of the evils of the dairy business > is important to varnasrama development since it has dragged down > practically every project in the movement. If such a discussion could be held without you throwing your accusations and attacks out left and right, then I agree that we can all benefit from it. But it is tough for many on this forum to associate with you as it is now. > Perhaps we can start handing out condoms to the bulls. I actually think that was a funny joke. I see that you can be funny, and you have good points. But you don't seem to see that anyone else have good points, and you don't get their jokes. How do you think you will be acepted on this forum with such a mood? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 1999 Report Share Posted April 26, 1999 > > > Hopefully, whatever decision is > > made we can follow it on all strings of conversation/discussion. I would > > think that coming to an understanding of the evils of the dairy business > > is important to varnasrama development since it has dragged down > > practically every project in the movement. It is an evil and a mistake. Please read teh Cow Protection Standards ( I think now also available on Cakra) and see how the mistakes of New Vrindavan and others has been incorporated into a warnign for others. Yes, the commercial dairy business as a business is not recommended. (I know Hare Krsna dd has some quotes about someone who lives off selling milk goes to hell). This lack of recommendation extends beyond the actual cow protectors, however, and reaches out to all who are part of it, including the most important part of it, the consumer, without whose money the entire demand driven industry would collapse. I would extend the "every project" umbrella to include all the temples who buy milk simply on the basis of price. As for alternatives, that also is covered. One is austerity, becoming a vegan. Another is to purify the blood milk by making donations to Trust Funds set up to benefit cow protection programs. This is actually preferable to the vegan alternative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 1999 Report Share Posted April 26, 1999 > > > Hopefully, whatever decision is > > made we can follow it on all strings of conversation/discussion. I would > > think that coming to an understanding of the evils of the dairy business > > is important to varnasrama development since it has dragged down > > practically every project in the movement. It is an evil and a mistake. Please read teh Cow Protection Standards ( I think now also available on Cakra) and see how the mistakes of New Vrindavan and others has been incorporated into a warnign for others. Yes, the commercial dairy business as a business is not recommended. (I know Hare Krsna dd has some quotes about someone who lives off selling milk goes to hell). This lack of recommendation extends beyond the actual cow protectors, however, and reaches out to all who are part of it, including the most important part of it, the consumer, without whose money the entire demand driven industry would collapse. I would extend the "every project" umbrella to include all the temples who buy milk simply on the basis of price. As for alternatives, that also is covered. One is austerity, becoming a vegan. Another is to purify the blood milk by making donations to Trust Funds set up to benefit cow protection programs. This is actually preferable to the vegan alternative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 1999 Report Share Posted April 27, 1999 In a message dated 99-04-26 09:30:27 EDT, you write: << As for alternatives, that also is covered. One is austerity, becoming a vegan. Another is to purify the blood milk by making donations to Trust Funds set up to benefit cow protection programs. This is actually preferable to the vegan alternative.>> Becoming a vegan may appear to be the merciful way to go considering the dairy industry today ( and my children have attempted this from time to time) however since consumption of hot milk prasad has been recommended by Srila Prabhupada to develope the finer tissues of the brain necessary for spiritual development, giving up milk totally is not the best choice. In the west we tend to consume more milk products than is healthy or even required for spiritual life and justify because it is prasad. So once we have reached the decision to be able to minimize consumption of milk either because we are more conscious of where it comes from or because 50 year old bodies can no longer digest the quantities of milk products we think we need, to simply end milk consumption entirely may still not be the best route. Where are the trust funds set up to continue cow protection. Are they set up yet? And how much is the real cost of milk, how much more would milk from protected cows be, i.e. how much should we donate for each gallon of milk we buy that is not from protected cows? yhs, Kanti dd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 1999 Report Share Posted April 27, 1999 In a message dated 99-04-26 09:30:27 EDT, you write: << As for alternatives, that also is covered. One is austerity, becoming a vegan. Another is to purify the blood milk by making donations to Trust Funds set up to benefit cow protection programs. This is actually preferable to the vegan alternative.>> Becoming a vegan may appear to be the merciful way to go considering the dairy industry today ( and my children have attempted this from time to time) however since consumption of hot milk prasad has been recommended by Srila Prabhupada to develope the finer tissues of the brain necessary for spiritual development, giving up milk totally is not the best choice. In the west we tend to consume more milk products than is healthy or even required for spiritual life and justify because it is prasad. So once we have reached the decision to be able to minimize consumption of milk either because we are more conscious of where it comes from or because 50 year old bodies can no longer digest the quantities of milk products we think we need, to simply end milk consumption entirely may still not be the best route. Where are the trust funds set up to continue cow protection. Are they set up yet? And how much is the real cost of milk, how much more would milk from protected cows be, i.e. how much should we donate for each gallon of milk we buy that is not from protected cows? yhs, Kanti dd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 1999 Report Share Posted April 28, 1999 > > > Where are the trust funds set up to continue cow protection. Are they set up > yet? Just now coming. anyone with legal expertise is invited to jump in. In the mean time, ISCOWP is set up to take donations, as is New Vrindaban's program and I am sure any farm with cows can. The nice thing about Trust funds is they can be set up so the actual donation is not touched, but the income from the trust is used. I hope that will encourage larger donations, bequests , etc. I have this fantasy of standing in front of Yamaraja, and as he is weighing the pious and impious credits (me hoping nervously in the meantime I have a Get Out Of Samsara Free card left , by his mercy, from Srila Prabhupada), being able to point out to him (Yamaraja) that even though I have left my body, my pious credits continue to accrue due to the income being generated by my still working donation in th eTrust. Another form of Trust is not a general Trust set up by the cow Protection Program itself, but an individual fund set up by an individual donor. Like a Charitable Remainder Trust, for example, wherein a donor places an asset in the Trust, but continues to recieve the income from the asset for a specified period of time or until leaving the body, at which time the asset passes to the beneficiary. The donor gets full credit taxwise for the donation at the time of the gift, but still gets the income. Also, if the gift is highly appreciated, the neither the donor nor the beneficiary is liable for capital gains tax. This type of trust has obvious tax advantages for the donor. > And how much is the real cost of milk, how much more would milk from > protected cows be, i.e. how much should we donate for each gallon of milk we > buy that is not from protected cows? yhs, Kanti dd At NV, we figure that it costs about $1 a day to maintain a cow at absolute minimal care, not including a lot of donated labor and not including land cost. At that level, some cows are dieing unnecessarily and draw the attention of devotees like Vyapaka. Realistically, it can be $1,000 per year to maintain a cow, which would include some income for a devotee protector and also pro rating the cost of the land, taxes, vet work, etc. At this level, it creates an economic base for a devotee community, and a way to expand land holdings. A calf on average will live 12 years x $1,000 = $12,000. If in the lactation the cow has average 30 lbs a day for 300 days and 10 lbs a day for another 900 days, that is 18,000 lbs total which equals about 2,250 gallons. Lifetime support of calf $12,000 Lifetime support of cow $12,000 --------- $24,000 Divided by 2,250 gallons, that is a little over $10 per gallon, so use $10 per gallon as a rule of thumb. Of course, many variables enter into this, including climate, level of care, so the actual cost can vary, so the $10 figure is not written in stone. Realistically, you have to do what you can afford. If every devotee and life member were giving even just $1 per gallon of milk or pound of butter consumed, over a period of time it would generate a substantial amount of capital and would also serve as an inspiration to larger donors. It is the example of the sparrow tossing a pebble in the ocean for Lord Ramacandra. Even a quarter a gallon. This cow protection is not just some mundane scheme. It has to do also with prayer, consciousness, and a nonexploitaive mentality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 1999 Report Share Posted April 28, 1999 > > > Where are the trust funds set up to continue cow protection. Are they set up > yet? Just now coming. anyone with legal expertise is invited to jump in. In the mean time, ISCOWP is set up to take donations, as is New Vrindaban's program and I am sure any farm with cows can. The nice thing about Trust funds is they can be set up so the actual donation is not touched, but the income from the trust is used. I hope that will encourage larger donations, bequests , etc. I have this fantasy of standing in front of Yamaraja, and as he is weighing the pious and impious credits (me hoping nervously in the meantime I have a Get Out Of Samsara Free card left , by his mercy, from Srila Prabhupada), being able to point out to him (Yamaraja) that even though I have left my body, my pious credits continue to accrue due to the income being generated by my still working donation in th eTrust. Another form of Trust is not a general Trust set up by the cow Protection Program itself, but an individual fund set up by an individual donor. Like a Charitable Remainder Trust, for example, wherein a donor places an asset in the Trust, but continues to recieve the income from the asset for a specified period of time or until leaving the body, at which time the asset passes to the beneficiary. The donor gets full credit taxwise for the donation at the time of the gift, but still gets the income. Also, if the gift is highly appreciated, the neither the donor nor the beneficiary is liable for capital gains tax. This type of trust has obvious tax advantages for the donor. > And how much is the real cost of milk, how much more would milk from > protected cows be, i.e. how much should we donate for each gallon of milk we > buy that is not from protected cows? yhs, Kanti dd At NV, we figure that it costs about $1 a day to maintain a cow at absolute minimal care, not including a lot of donated labor and not including land cost. At that level, some cows are dieing unnecessarily and draw the attention of devotees like Vyapaka. Realistically, it can be $1,000 per year to maintain a cow, which would include some income for a devotee protector and also pro rating the cost of the land, taxes, vet work, etc. At this level, it creates an economic base for a devotee community, and a way to expand land holdings. A calf on average will live 12 years x $1,000 = $12,000. If in the lactation the cow has average 30 lbs a day for 300 days and 10 lbs a day for another 900 days, that is 18,000 lbs total which equals about 2,250 gallons. Lifetime support of calf $12,000 Lifetime support of cow $12,000 --------- $24,000 Divided by 2,250 gallons, that is a little over $10 per gallon, so use $10 per gallon as a rule of thumb. Of course, many variables enter into this, including climate, level of care, so the actual cost can vary, so the $10 figure is not written in stone. Realistically, you have to do what you can afford. If every devotee and life member were giving even just $1 per gallon of milk or pound of butter consumed, over a period of time it would generate a substantial amount of capital and would also serve as an inspiration to larger donors. It is the example of the sparrow tossing a pebble in the ocean for Lord Ramacandra. Even a quarter a gallon. This cow protection is not just some mundane scheme. It has to do also with prayer, consciousness, and a nonexploitaive mentality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 1999 Report Share Posted April 28, 1999 On 28 Apr 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote: > > > And how much is the real cost of milk, how much more would milk from > > protected cows be, i.e. how much should we donate for each gallon of milk we > > buy that is not from protected cows? yhs, Kanti dd > > At NV, we figure that it costs about $1 a day to maintain a cow at absolute > minimal care, not including a lot of donated labor and not including land > cost. > At that level, some cows are dieing unnecessarily and draw the attention of > devotees like Vyapaka. Realistically, it can be $1,000 per year to maintain a > cow, which would include some income for a devotee protector and also pro > rating > the cost of the land, taxes, vet work, etc. At this level, it creates an > economic base for a devotee community, and a way to expand land holdings. I don't know too much about cow protection, but I would like to learn more. Some things I know: An average American cow produces 17,000 pounds of milk per year. This is about 2125 gallons of milk. An average gallon of U.S. milk costs $2.72. 2125 x $2.72 = $5,780. Some questions: What is the annual milk production in pounds for ISKCON cows. I remember very proudly that some of our cows at Gita-nagari were producing far more than the national average and were winning blue ribbons at county fairs for their milk production, butter fat production and care, etc. What is the average milk production life of an American cow? What is the average life of an American cow? What is the average production life of an ISKCON cow? What is the average life of an ISKCON cow? If ISKCON cows produced milk for 10 years and they only averaged 12,000 lbs. per year they would give us 120,000 lbs. for their producing years. Which is worth about $40,800 for their production life. How much longer do they live after production and does the cost of maintenance stay the same? If an ISKCON cow produces 12,000 lbs. of milk per year, that is about 1500 gallons. That is about $4,080 @ $2.72 per gallon. If the average annual maintenance cost is $1,000 per cow and they produce about $4000 worth of milk, how is the balance of the money budgeted? How much do ISKCON devotees pay for a gallon of ISKCON cow milk? If devotees paid only $1.00 more per gallon (than the U.S. average) for protected cows milk, an ISKCON cow would produce about $5,580 per year. I am likely forgetting some key economical points about milk production and cow protection as I have not spent much time thinking about these things, but if the above could be addressed by our vaisyas it would be most appreciated. Thank you very much. Sincerely, Janesvara dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 1999 Report Share Posted April 28, 1999 On 28 Apr 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote: > > > And how much is the real cost of milk, how much more would milk from > > protected cows be, i.e. how much should we donate for each gallon of milk we > > buy that is not from protected cows? yhs, Kanti dd > > At NV, we figure that it costs about $1 a day to maintain a cow at absolute > minimal care, not including a lot of donated labor and not including land > cost. > At that level, some cows are dieing unnecessarily and draw the attention of > devotees like Vyapaka. Realistically, it can be $1,000 per year to maintain a > cow, which would include some income for a devotee protector and also pro > rating > the cost of the land, taxes, vet work, etc. At this level, it creates an > economic base for a devotee community, and a way to expand land holdings. I don't know too much about cow protection, but I would like to learn more. Some things I know: An average American cow produces 17,000 pounds of milk per year. This is about 2125 gallons of milk. An average gallon of U.S. milk costs $2.72. 2125 x $2.72 = $5,780. Some questions: What is the annual milk production in pounds for ISKCON cows. I remember very proudly that some of our cows at Gita-nagari were producing far more than the national average and were winning blue ribbons at county fairs for their milk production, butter fat production and care, etc. What is the average milk production life of an American cow? What is the average life of an American cow? What is the average production life of an ISKCON cow? What is the average life of an ISKCON cow? If ISKCON cows produced milk for 10 years and they only averaged 12,000 lbs. per year they would give us 120,000 lbs. for their producing years. Which is worth about $40,800 for their production life. How much longer do they live after production and does the cost of maintenance stay the same? If an ISKCON cow produces 12,000 lbs. of milk per year, that is about 1500 gallons. That is about $4,080 @ $2.72 per gallon. If the average annual maintenance cost is $1,000 per cow and they produce about $4000 worth of milk, how is the balance of the money budgeted? How much do ISKCON devotees pay for a gallon of ISKCON cow milk? If devotees paid only $1.00 more per gallon (than the U.S. average) for protected cows milk, an ISKCON cow would produce about $5,580 per year. I am likely forgetting some key economical points about milk production and cow protection as I have not spent much time thinking about these things, but if the above could be addressed by our vaisyas it would be most appreciated. Thank you very much. Sincerely, Janesvara dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 1999 Report Share Posted April 28, 1999 > > > Kanti dd: And how much is the real cost of milk, how much more would milk from protected cows be, i.e. how much should we donate for each gallon of milk we buy that is not from protected cows? > > > > Madhava Gosh wrote: At NV, we figure that it costs about $1 a day to maintain a cow at absolute minimal care, not including a lot of donated labor and not including land cost. At that level, some cows are dying unnecessarily and draw the attention of devotees like Vyapaka. Realistically, it can be $1,000 per year to maintain a cow, which would include some income for a devotee protector and also pro rating the cost of the land, taxes, vet work, etc. At this level, it creates an economic base for a devotee community, and a way to expand land holdings. Janesvara dasa I don't know too much about cow protection, but I would like to learn more. Some things I know: An average American cow produces 17,000 pounds of milk per year. This is about 2125 gallons of milk. An average gallon of U.S. milk costs $2.72. 2125 x $2.72 = $5,780. Some questions: What is the annual milk production in pounds for ISKCON cows. I remember very proudly that some of our cows at Gita-nagari were producing far more than the national average and were winning blue ribbons at county fairs for their milk production, butter fat production and care, etc. What is the average milk production life of an American cow? Comment: What is the average life of an American cow? 4 years productive life in commercial dairy herd (6yrs.) varies for low commercial herds depending on degree they allow the big buck to regulate their herd number. Janesvara dasa What is the average production life of an ISKCON cow? What is the average life of an ISKCON cow? Comment: This is not a comparable situation. For example, we have 3 milking here ages are; Nadia 17, Sarasvati 5 and Virarajanadi 5. Nadia has been milking 2 years now and averages 20 lbs/day the other two have been milking 2 months and have not reached their peak yet and they are at about 45 lbs/day. Our cows do not usually live past 20, although our oldest cow, Rasalila is now 22. She is not producing, is in good health but with so many animals and the need to keep our population increase low there is no need to have her any others on the production line. Janesvara dasa If ISKCON cows produced milk for 10 years and they only averaged 12,000 lbs. per year they would give us 120,000 lbs. for their producing years. Which is worth about $40,800 for their production life. How much longer do they live after production and does the cost of maintenance stay the same? > Comment: Cows unless ill are capable to produce up until death. I can not speak about the other farms but in New Talavan (cows arrived June 1974) we have only a few reaching 20 years, but then they are not pampered as much as they should be. We do not have severe winters (no snow, with mild freezes) there is no barn for them and they live outside year round. With a barn and improved pastures we would probably see animals close to 30. Our production is around 12,000 lbs 6% b.f. From a herd of animals who are of mixed ancestry with Jersey blood predominating. The cost of maintenance will increase as the cow enters old age, she has a body that is falling apart. Same as with people. Janesvara dasa If an ISKCON cow produces 12,000 lbs. of milk per year, that is about 1500 gallons. That is about $4,080 @ $2.72 per gallon. If the average annual maintenance cost is $1,000 per cow and they produce about $4,000 worth of milk, how is the balance of the money budgeted? How much do ISKCON devotees pay for a gallon of ISKCON cow milk? Comment: In New Talavan we have 3 cows milking and a herd of 128. Using your figures 3 x $4,080= $12,240. Expenses 70 acs. Winter pasture $4,000.00 (seed and fertilizer) 300 bales (1600#) $4,500.00 Grain $3,900.00 $12,900.00 Note I have not included medical, summer pasture, machinery, personnel etc… Also it is not possible to sell all that milk 1500 gallons/yr or 28.9/week, if I give it away people will only take 18/week whole milk un-pasteurized. It is easier to drink blood milk from the corner grocery (laced with all kinds of nice things), they want pasteurized and low fat. That takes additional time and machinery to accomplish (which I would have to add to my expenses). Can not even meet cost of feeding animals at 18 G/wk (grain, hay & pasture) what to speak of other things. 18 x 2.72 x 52= $2,545.92/yr. The problem is there is no market for milk here even if I wanted to make it a business. So we sell a little now and then as there is interest and with this money and that will cover salt blocks and other odds and ends. This only as a convenience to those that come and ask for milk. Janesvara dasa If devotees paid only $1.00 more per gallon (than the U.S. average) for protected cows milk, an ISKCON cow would produce about $5,580 per year. I am likely forgetting some key economical points about milk production and cow protection as I have not spent much time thinking about these things, but if the above could be addressed by our vaisyas it would be most appreciated. Comment: Yes, this is what I see one of the purpose of this conference, to inform others about the cows. Now if you can promote this slogan ‘Buy Vaisnava’ then at least in your area it may be possible to correct this situation. Ys, Rohita dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 1999 Report Share Posted April 28, 1999 > > > Kanti dd: And how much is the real cost of milk, how much more would milk from protected cows be, i.e. how much should we donate for each gallon of milk we buy that is not from protected cows? > > > > Madhava Gosh wrote: At NV, we figure that it costs about $1 a day to maintain a cow at absolute minimal care, not including a lot of donated labor and not including land cost. At that level, some cows are dying unnecessarily and draw the attention of devotees like Vyapaka. Realistically, it can be $1,000 per year to maintain a cow, which would include some income for a devotee protector and also pro rating the cost of the land, taxes, vet work, etc. At this level, it creates an economic base for a devotee community, and a way to expand land holdings. Janesvara dasa I don't know too much about cow protection, but I would like to learn more. Some things I know: An average American cow produces 17,000 pounds of milk per year. This is about 2125 gallons of milk. An average gallon of U.S. milk costs $2.72. 2125 x $2.72 = $5,780. Some questions: What is the annual milk production in pounds for ISKCON cows. I remember very proudly that some of our cows at Gita-nagari were producing far more than the national average and were winning blue ribbons at county fairs for their milk production, butter fat production and care, etc. What is the average milk production life of an American cow? Comment: What is the average life of an American cow? 4 years productive life in commercial dairy herd (6yrs.) varies for low commercial herds depending on degree they allow the big buck to regulate their herd number. Janesvara dasa What is the average production life of an ISKCON cow? What is the average life of an ISKCON cow? Comment: This is not a comparable situation. For example, we have 3 milking here ages are; Nadia 17, Sarasvati 5 and Virarajanadi 5. Nadia has been milking 2 years now and averages 20 lbs/day the other two have been milking 2 months and have not reached their peak yet and they are at about 45 lbs/day. Our cows do not usually live past 20, although our oldest cow, Rasalila is now 22. She is not producing, is in good health but with so many animals and the need to keep our population increase low there is no need to have her any others on the production line. Janesvara dasa If ISKCON cows produced milk for 10 years and they only averaged 12,000 lbs. per year they would give us 120,000 lbs. for their producing years. Which is worth about $40,800 for their production life. How much longer do they live after production and does the cost of maintenance stay the same? > Comment: Cows unless ill are capable to produce up until death. I can not speak about the other farms but in New Talavan (cows arrived June 1974) we have only a few reaching 20 years, but then they are not pampered as much as they should be. We do not have severe winters (no snow, with mild freezes) there is no barn for them and they live outside year round. With a barn and improved pastures we would probably see animals close to 30. Our production is around 12,000 lbs 6% b.f. From a herd of animals who are of mixed ancestry with Jersey blood predominating. The cost of maintenance will increase as the cow enters old age, she has a body that is falling apart. Same as with people. Janesvara dasa If an ISKCON cow produces 12,000 lbs. of milk per year, that is about 1500 gallons. That is about $4,080 @ $2.72 per gallon. If the average annual maintenance cost is $1,000 per cow and they produce about $4,000 worth of milk, how is the balance of the money budgeted? How much do ISKCON devotees pay for a gallon of ISKCON cow milk? Comment: In New Talavan we have 3 cows milking and a herd of 128. Using your figures 3 x $4,080= $12,240. Expenses 70 acs. Winter pasture $4,000.00 (seed and fertilizer) 300 bales (1600#) $4,500.00 Grain $3,900.00 $12,900.00 Note I have not included medical, summer pasture, machinery, personnel etc… Also it is not possible to sell all that milk 1500 gallons/yr or 28.9/week, if I give it away people will only take 18/week whole milk un-pasteurized. It is easier to drink blood milk from the corner grocery (laced with all kinds of nice things), they want pasteurized and low fat. That takes additional time and machinery to accomplish (which I would have to add to my expenses). Can not even meet cost of feeding animals at 18 G/wk (grain, hay & pasture) what to speak of other things. 18 x 2.72 x 52= $2,545.92/yr. The problem is there is no market for milk here even if I wanted to make it a business. So we sell a little now and then as there is interest and with this money and that will cover salt blocks and other odds and ends. This only as a convenience to those that come and ask for milk. Janesvara dasa If devotees paid only $1.00 more per gallon (than the U.S. average) for protected cows milk, an ISKCON cow would produce about $5,580 per year. I am likely forgetting some key economical points about milk production and cow protection as I have not spent much time thinking about these things, but if the above could be addressed by our vaisyas it would be most appreciated. Comment: Yes, this is what I see one of the purpose of this conference, to inform others about the cows. Now if you can promote this slogan ‘Buy Vaisnava’ then at least in your area it may be possible to correct this situation. Ys, Rohita dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 1999 Report Share Posted April 29, 1999 > > > An average American cow produces 17,000 pounds of milk per year. > This is about 2125 gallons of milk. > An average gallon of U.S. milk costs $2.72. 2125 x $2.72 = $5,780. > $2.72 is a retail price. The farmer gets between $10 to $16 a hundred weight which is closer to $1 per gallon. The $2.72 includes a lot of value added in the form of transportation, processing and bottling, and retail markup. The 17,000 figure is based on a yearly freshening, which means every year you have another calf, also, only top producers are keep in the milking string, with subpar producers culled. As a cow may produce 4-5 calves in a factory farm setting, half are female so that means only the top 50% are kept as replacements. Also, that is with Holsteins bred to produce high volumnes under factory farm conditions, a bred not well suited for VAD purposes. The genetic pool is selected for high production, but one by product is a weak oxen, that dies rather easily. Kirtananada went the Holstein route when he went commercial, one byproduct of which is the stories of why if birth rate is 50/50 male /female, why was the herd disportionately female, which it was and is. The weaker males dying more easily is a contributing factor. > > Some questions: > > What is the annual milk production in pounds for ISKCON cows. I remember very > proudly that some of our cows at Gita-nagari were producing far more than the > national average and were winning blue ribbons at county fairs for their milk > production, butter fat production and care, etc. > When they were fresh. After the first year, that production falls off dramatically. As a result of that keeping the herd average high mentality, so many calves were fed for the rest of their lives. Incidentally, we had a cow at NV, Himavati, who gave 150 lbs in one day. That is about 18 gallons. It was also common to have cows give give in excess of 20, 000 lbs in a lactation. > > What is the average milk production life of an American cow? There are bred young, then bred yearly until production falls, typically 4-6 years, then culled by age of about 8. The early pregnacies and push for high production wears out their bodies. > > What is the average life of an American cow? For an oxen who escapes veal, about 2 years. Maybe 8 for a milker. > > What is the average production life of an ISKCON cow? > What is the average life of an ISKCON cow? I would prefer to answer in the form of what should be the production life and what should be the average. For the puposes of the Cow Standards, our thinking was more that ideally you would have a cow bred to calf at 3 years, with a lactation running 3-4 years, then another calf, and another long lactation. A homestead breed cow will give in excess of 10,000 pounds (there is a lot of individual variation) the first year, and 3000-5000 a year for some years after. A holstein is lucky to give 2000 lbs the second year, so unsuitable for the small farm scenario necessary for complete VAD. > > > If ISKCON cows produced milk for 10 years and they only averaged 12,000 lbs. > per year they would give us 120,000 lbs. for their producing years. Which is > worth about $40,800 for their production life. How much longer do they live > after production and does the cost of maintenance stay the same? That would require yearly freshening and 10 calves in a lifetime, all of which would need to be fed for their lifetimes.. They can live as much as 20 years. Considering that some calves die young, some disease, some accidents, for the Standards we took 12 years as an estimate of the average expected life of a calf, though a strong case can be made for longer. In other words, if you freshen 5 cows a year, your herd size will be 60 animals. (5 calves x12 years expectancy). So the milk from 5 cows has to support 60. Unless the production is subsidized, this is extremely unrealistic. Unfortunately, the pattern that has emerged at ISKCON farms, is that for the first few years, there is actually a profit, because the ratio of cows to milkers is quite low. However, as each year goes by, the number of milkers stays the same, but the herd continues to grow, inevitably leading to a loss. The the managers get discouraged, abandon the project, and the poor cowherds get left with a large amount of cows, little income or community support which leads to high death rates due to minimal care, and on top of it, they get accused of being the cause of the neglect, rather than honored for staying and minimising the neglect. Some hard, extremely painful times. > > > If an ISKCON cow produces 12,000 lbs. of milk per year, that is about 1500 > gallons. That is about $4,080 @ $2.72 per gallon. Again, that is retail. At $1 a gallon that is $1500. > > If the average annual maintenance cost is $1,000 per cow and they produce > about $4000 worth of milk, how is the balance of the money budgeted? Also, to push production, much of that extra $500 goes into expensive grain and protein supplements necessary to push the production. > > > How much do ISKCON devotees pay for a gallon of ISKCON cow milk? That is not easy to answer. At NV, 100% of production goes directdy to temple kitchen, and no money is exchanged. Feed is bought, and devotees donate labor. > > > If devotees paid only $1.00 more per gallon (than the U.S. average) for > protected cows milk, an ISKCON cow would produce about $5,580 per year. The $1 per gallon, in my mind, is more of an austerity that devotees would perform to purify the blood milk they buy. By making that contribution to cow protection, they are acknolwedging that the ugrakarmic milk is bad, and their desire to protect cows, while at the same time being practically able to live their lives as they have to in current circumstances. Personally, I buy blood milk. For purification, I graze several cows on my land at no charge to the Cow Protection program, plus donate time to further cow protection. I feel at this point that is better than freshening a cow for my own use. > > > I am likely forgetting some key economical points about milk production and > cow protection as I have not spent much time thinking about these things, but > if the above could be addressed by our vaisyas it would be most appreciated. Key thing to remember. Since the date you are so fond of quoting that Srila Prabhupada gave teh order for VAD, in the US, dairy farms have gone from 600,000 to only 170,000 today. That is an incredibly competitive environment, where even karmis who salughtered their cull cows and oxen couldn't survive. I hope I have addressed some of your questions. > > > Thank you very much. > > Sincerely, > > Janesvara dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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