Cowslaughter in ISKCON?

[Guest guest]

>

>

> An average American cow produces 17,000 pounds of milk per year.

> This is about 2125 gallons of milk.

> An average gallon of U.S. milk costs $2.72. 2125 x $2.72 = $5,780.

>

 

$2.72 is a retail price. The farmer gets between $10 to $16 a hundred weight

which is closer to $1 per gallon. The $2.72 includes a lot of value added in

the

form of transportation, processing and bottling, and retail markup.

 

The 17,000 figure is based on a yearly freshening, which means every year you

have another calf, also, only top producers are keep in the milking string,

with subpar producers culled. As a cow may produce 4-5 calves in a factory

farm

setting, half are female so that means only the top 50% are kept as

replacements.

 

Also, that is with Holsteins bred to produce high volumnes under factory farm

conditions, a bred not well suited for VAD purposes. The genetic pool is

selected for high production, but one by product is a weak oxen, that dies

rather easily. Kirtananada went the Holstein route when he went commercial,

one

byproduct of which is the stories of why if birth rate is 50/50 male /female,

why was the herd disportionately female, which it was and is. The weaker

males

dying more easily is a contributing factor.

 

>

> Some questions:

>

> What is the annual milk production in pounds for ISKCON cows. I remember very

> proudly that some of our cows at Gita-nagari were producing far more than the

> national average and were winning blue ribbons at county fairs for their milk

> production, butter fat production and care, etc.

>

 

When they were fresh. After the first year, that production falls off

dramatically. As a result of that keeping the herd average high mentality, so

many calves were fed for the rest of their lives. Incidentally, we had a cow

at

NV, Himavati, who gave 150 lbs in one day. That is about 18 gallons. It was

also common to have cows give give in excess of 20, 000 lbs in a lactation.

 

>

> What is the average milk production life of an American cow?

 

There are bred young, then bred yearly until production falls, typically 4-6

years, then culled by age of about 8. The early pregnacies and push for high

production wears out their bodies.

 

>

> What is the average life of an American cow?

 

For an oxen who escapes veal, about 2 years. Maybe 8 for a milker.

 

>

> What is the average production life of an ISKCON cow?

> What is the average life of an ISKCON cow?

 

I would prefer to answer in the form of what should be the production life and

what should be the average. For the puposes of the Cow Standards, our

thinking

was more that ideally you would have a cow bred to calf at 3 years, with a

lactation running 3-4 years, then another calf, and another long lactation.

 

A homestead breed cow will give in excess of 10,000 pounds (there is a lot of

individual variation) the first year, and 3000-5000 a year for some years

after. A holstein is lucky to give 2000 lbs the second year, so unsuitable

for

the small farm scenario necessary for complete VAD.

 

>

>

> If ISKCON cows produced milk for 10 years and they only averaged 12,000 lbs.

> per year they would give us 120,000 lbs. for their producing years. Which is

> worth about $40,800 for their production life. How much longer do they live

> after production and does the cost of maintenance stay the same?

 

That would require yearly freshening and 10 calves in a lifetime, all of which

would need to be fed for their lifetimes.. They can live as much as 20 years.

Considering that some calves die young, some disease, some accidents, for

the

Standards we took 12 years as an estimate of the average expected life of a

calf,

though a strong case can be made for longer.

 

In other words, if you freshen 5 cows a year, your herd size will be 60

animals. (5 calves x12 years expectancy). So the milk from 5 cows has to

support

60. Unless the production is subsidized, this is extremely unrealistic.

Unfortunately, the pattern that has emerged at ISKCON farms, is that for the

first few years, there is actually a profit, because the ratio of cows to

milkers is quite low. However, as each year goes by, the number of milkers

stays the same, but the herd continues to grow, inevitably leading to a loss.

The the managers get discouraged, abandon the project, and the poor cowherds

get

left with a large amount of cows, little income or community support which

leads

to high death rates due to minimal care, and on top of it, they get accused

of

being the cause of the neglect, rather than honored for staying and minimising

the neglect.

 

Some hard, extremely painful times.

 

 

>

>

> If an ISKCON cow produces 12,000 lbs. of milk per year, that is about 1500

> gallons. That is about $4,080 @ $2.72 per gallon.

 

Again, that is retail. At $1 a gallon that is $1500.

 

>

> If the average annual maintenance cost is $1,000 per cow and they produce

> about $4000 worth of milk, how is the balance of the money budgeted?

 

Also, to push production, much of that extra $500 goes into expensive grain

and

protein supplements necessary to push the production.

 

>

>

> How much do ISKCON devotees pay for a gallon of ISKCON cow milk?

 

That is not easy to answer. At NV, 100% of production goes directdy to temple

kitchen, and no money is exchanged. Feed is bought, and devotees donate

labor.

 

>

>

> If devotees paid only $1.00 more per gallon (than the U.S. average) for

> protected cows milk, an ISKCON cow would produce about $5,580 per year.

 

The $1 per gallon, in my mind, is more of an austerity that devotees would

perform to purify the blood milk they buy. By making that contribution to cow

protection, they are acknolwedging that the ugrakarmic milk is bad, and their

desire to protect cows, while at the same time being practically able to live

their lives as they have to in current circumstances. Personally, I buy blood

milk. For purification, I graze several cows on my land at no charge to the

Cow

Protection program, plus donate time to further cow protection. I feel at

this

point that is better than freshening a cow for my own use.

 

>

>

> I am likely forgetting some key economical points about milk production and

> cow protection as I have not spent much time thinking about these things, but

> if the above could be addressed by our vaisyas it would be most appreciated.

 

Key thing to remember. Since the date you are so fond of quoting that Srila

Prabhupada gave teh order for VAD, in the US, dairy farms have gone from

600,000

to only 170,000 today. That is an incredibly competitive environment, where

even

karmis who salughtered their cull cows and oxen couldn't survive. I hope I

have

addressed some of your questions.

 

>

>

> Thank you very much.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Janesvara dasa

[Guest guest]

Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

In other words, if you freshen 5 cows a year, your herd size will be 60

animals. (5 calves x12 years expectancy). So the milk from 5 cows has to

support

60. Unless the production is subsidized, this is extremely unrealistic.

Unfortunately, the pattern that has emerged at ISKCON farms, is that for

the

first few years, there is actually a profit, because the ratio of cows to

milkers is quite low. However, as each year goes by, the number of

milkers

stays the same, but the herd continues to grow, inevitably leading to a

loss.

The the managers get discouraged, abandon the project, and the poor

cowherds

get

left with a large amount of cows, little income or community support which

leads

to high death rates due to minimal care, and on top of it, they get

accused

of

being the cause of the neglect, rather than honored for staying and

minimising

the neglect.

 

Some hard, extremely painful times.

 

 

Prabhu, would you not then agree that the principle should be that a farmer

should make the money from agriculture more than he has been trying to do

from milk? He shouldn't fall into 'hard times' ideally. Or is this not so

possible because there is not sufficinet manpower to help him produce?

[Guest guest]

Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

In other words, if you freshen 5 cows a year, your herd size will be 60

animals. (5 calves x12 years expectancy). So the milk from 5 cows has to

support

60. Unless the production is subsidized, this is extremely unrealistic.

Unfortunately, the pattern that has emerged at ISKCON farms, is that for

the

first few years, there is actually a profit, because the ratio of cows to

milkers is quite low. However, as each year goes by, the number of

milkers

stays the same, but the herd continues to grow, inevitably leading to a

loss.

The the managers get discouraged, abandon the project, and the poor

cowherds

get

left with a large amount of cows, little income or community support which

leads

to high death rates due to minimal care, and on top of it, they get

accused

of

being the cause of the neglect, rather than honored for staying and

minimising

the neglect.

 

Some hard, extremely painful times.

 

 

Prabhu, would you not then agree that the principle should be that a farmer

should make the money from agriculture more than he has been trying to do

from milk? He shouldn't fall into 'hard times' ideally. Or is this not so

possible because there is not sufficinet manpower to help him produce?

[Guest guest]

Madhava Gosh wrote:

In other words, if you freshen 5 cows a year, your herd size will be 60

animals. (5 calves x12 years expectancy). So the milk from 5 cows has to

support 60.

 

>On 02 May 1999, Radha Krsna wrote:

Unless the production is subsidized, this is extremely unrealistic.

 

Madhava Gosh wrote:

Unfortunately, the pattern that has emerged at ISKCON farms, is that for the

first few years, there is actually a profit, because the ratio of cows to

milkers is quite low. However, as each year goes by, the number of milkers

stays the same, but the herd continues to grow, inevitably leading to a

loss. The the managers get discouraged, abandon the project, and the poor

cowherds get left with a large amount of cows, little income or community

support which leads to high death rates due to minimal care, and on top of

it, they get accused of being the cause of the neglect, rather than honored

for staying and minimising the neglect.

 

>On 02 May 1999, Radha Krsna wrote:

Some hard, extremely painful times. Prabhu, would you not then agree that the

principle should be that a farmer should make the money from agriculture more

than he has been trying to do from milk?

 

No agriculture in that light will also lead to the same scenario. More

manpower is needed. That is unless you become mechanized, mechanized means

then you need engagement because if you are not occupied with propagating

this Krishna consciousness or producing the essentials then you will pursue

sense gratification. So is there a preaching engagement going on every day at

your temple? Are you producing the basic essential to sustain the material

body? If not you must be engaged in some activity that is meant to gratify

someone’s senses if not your own. This is what has been going on in ISKCON for

the last 20 years and it will not satiated the eternal soul – so we are in

some anxiety just like the non-devotees. No proper engagement means you will

get into trouble and I need not expand on that with all that has been going on

in ISKCON. Right now most devotees may dabble in preaching or in agriculture

but very few are cent per cent so engaged.

 

>On 02 May 1999, Radha Krsna wrote:

He shouldn't fall into 'hard times' ideally. Or is this not so possible

because there is not sufficient manpower to help him produce?

 

This is true, but there is also another factor, the cows, they like anyone who

is not engaged will get into trouble. Or as one might say idle hoofs are the

Devils workshop. Cows who are not producing and caring for a calf and

bulls/oxen not using their muscles need an engagement. To do this requires

personnel also. If you milk a cow it requires a milkman (gopa or gopi) to draw

out the milk and process it. When you progress above six cows you will need

another milkman and someone to process the milk received. If half of the

calves are male then there will be three animals to train, this will occupy

one trainer. What are needed are people willing to engage these animals, but

most are not so inclined. There needs to be a change in the heart. All devotee

communities either has to attract those type of persons or they themselves

have to become agrarian based. This also means buying from those Vaisnavas who

are producing.

 

So the solution is those that are inclined to preach should do so, others they

need to be engaged with producing the necessities, which for most apparently

is not much of a priority. If some are offended, please forgive me. Is this

not the truth and did not Srila Prabhupada say if you have money then print

books (someone must distribute them then) or buy land (for producing the

necessities and engaging those not so inclined to philosophical pursuit,

whether human or animal)? Excuse me this will take care of the brahmanas,

vaisyas and sudras, a few will be needed to organize so all goes smoothly and

orderly - there are the ksatriyas. That is everyone.

Ys,

Rohita dasa

[Guest guest]

Madhava Gosh wrote:

In other words, if you freshen 5 cows a year, your herd size will be 60

animals. (5 calves x12 years expectancy). So the milk from 5 cows has to

support 60.

 

>On 02 May 1999, Radha Krsna wrote:

Unless the production is subsidized, this is extremely unrealistic.

 

Madhava Gosh wrote:

Unfortunately, the pattern that has emerged at ISKCON farms, is that for the

first few years, there is actually a profit, because the ratio of cows to

milkers is quite low. However, as each year goes by, the number of milkers

stays the same, but the herd continues to grow, inevitably leading to a

loss. The the managers get discouraged, abandon the project, and the poor

cowherds get left with a large amount of cows, little income or community

support which leads to high death rates due to minimal care, and on top of

it, they get accused of being the cause of the neglect, rather than honored

for staying and minimising the neglect.

 

>On 02 May 1999, Radha Krsna wrote:

Some hard, extremely painful times. Prabhu, would you not then agree that the

principle should be that a farmer should make the money from agriculture more

than he has been trying to do from milk?

 

No agriculture in that light will also lead to the same scenario. More

manpower is needed. That is unless you become mechanized, mechanized means

then you need engagement because if you are not occupied with propagating

this Krishna consciousness or producing the essentials then you will pursue

sense gratification. So is there a preaching engagement going on every day at

your temple? Are you producing the basic essential to sustain the material

body? If not you must be engaged in some activity that is meant to gratify

someone’s senses if not your own. This is what has been going on in ISKCON for

the last 20 years and it will not satiated the eternal soul – so we are in

some anxiety just like the non-devotees. No proper engagement means you will

get into trouble and I need not expand on that with all that has been going on

in ISKCON. Right now most devotees may dabble in preaching or in agriculture

but very few are cent per cent so engaged.

 

>On 02 May 1999, Radha Krsna wrote:

He shouldn't fall into 'hard times' ideally. Or is this not so possible

because there is not sufficient manpower to help him produce?

 

This is true, but there is also another factor, the cows, they like anyone who

is not engaged will get into trouble. Or as one might say idle hoofs are the

Devils workshop. Cows who are not producing and caring for a calf and

bulls/oxen not using their muscles need an engagement. To do this requires

personnel also. If you milk a cow it requires a milkman (gopa or gopi) to draw

out the milk and process it. When you progress above six cows you will need

another milkman and someone to process the milk received. If half of the

calves are male then there will be three animals to train, this will occupy

one trainer. What are needed are people willing to engage these animals, but

most are not so inclined. There needs to be a change in the heart. All devotee

communities either has to attract those type of persons or they themselves

have to become agrarian based. This also means buying from those Vaisnavas who

are producing.

 

So the solution is those that are inclined to preach should do so, others they

need to be engaged with producing the necessities, which for most apparently

is not much of a priority. If some are offended, please forgive me. Is this

not the truth and did not Srila Prabhupada say if you have money then print

books (someone must distribute them then) or buy land (for producing the

necessities and engaging those not so inclined to philosophical pursuit,

whether human or animal)? Excuse me this will take care of the brahmanas,

vaisyas and sudras, a few will be needed to organize so all goes smoothly and

orderly - there are the ksatriyas. That is everyone.

Ys,

Rohita dasa

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Prabhu, would you not then agree that the principle should be that a farmer

> should make the money from agriculture more than he has been trying to do

> from milk? He shouldn't fall into 'hard times' ideally. Or is this not so

> possible because there is not sufficinet manpower to help him produce?

 

Given the extreme competition from milk subsidized by the blood of the cow and

the blood of the Earth in the form of oil, yes, it is impossible to make a

living selling milk, unless it is subsidized.

 

I make a small portion of my income from local sales of produce and flowers.

If

I were young and enthusiatic, I can see the possibility of making a survival

existence that way, especially with value added stuff like crafts and herbal

preparations, etc. With a cow or two milking , sufficient land, and a

subsidy to care for the life of a calf, I could also see even making some

little money from milk. But trying to have a bunch of cows and focus there for

livliehood is a dead end.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Prabhu, would you not then agree that the principle should be that a farmer

> should make the money from agriculture more than he has been trying to do

> from milk? He shouldn't fall into 'hard times' ideally. Or is this not so

> possible because there is not sufficinet manpower to help him produce?

 

Given the extreme competition from milk subsidized by the blood of the cow and

the blood of the Earth in the form of oil, yes, it is impossible to make a

living selling milk, unless it is subsidized.

 

I make a small portion of my income from local sales of produce and flowers.

If

I were young and enthusiatic, I can see the possibility of making a survival

existence that way, especially with value added stuff like crafts and herbal

preparations, etc. With a cow or two milking , sufficient land, and a

subsidy to care for the life of a calf, I could also see even making some

little money from milk. But trying to have a bunch of cows and focus there for

livliehood is a dead end.

[Guest guest]

> So the solution is those that are inclined to preach should do so, others

> they need to be engaged with producing the necessities, which for most

> apparently is not much of a priority.

 

 

Hare Krishna, please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila

Prabhupada.

 

Simple living - high thinking - is our slogan.

The simple living is no less preaching than the high thinking, I believe.

Ideally they should go hand in hand, isn´t it?

It turns people off when they find out our talking is not up to our walking.

So you are very much right.

ISKCON should be a very good example in producing it´s own necessities, as

per time, place and circumstance.

ys

[Guest guest]

> So the solution is those that are inclined to preach should do so, others

> they need to be engaged with producing the necessities, which for most

> apparently is not much of a priority.

 

 

Hare Krishna, please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila

Prabhupada.

 

Simple living - high thinking - is our slogan.

The simple living is no less preaching than the high thinking, I believe.

Ideally they should go hand in hand, isn´t it?

It turns people off when they find out our talking is not up to our walking.

So you are very much right.

ISKCON should be a very good example in producing it´s own necessities, as

per time, place and circumstance.

ys

[Guest guest]

Rohita das wrote:

 

>No agriculture in that light will also lead to the same scenario. More

>manpower is needed. That is unless you become mechanized, mechanized means

>then you need engagement because if you are not occupied with propagating

>this Krishna consciousness or producing the essentials then you will pursue

>sense gratification.

 

Can you explain what you mean when you say:

 

>More manpower is needed. That is unless you become mechanized, mechanized

>means then you need engagement because if you are not occupied with

>propagating this Krishna consciousness or producing the essentials then you

>will pursue sense gratification.

 

I'm not quite sure what this paragraph means.

If I understand it correctly you are saying that if you are mechanized you

are not propagating Krsna Consciousness.... I don't agree with this.

 

Let's discuss this first.

[Guest guest]

Rohita das wrote:

 

>No agriculture in that light will also lead to the same scenario. More

>manpower is needed. That is unless you become mechanized, mechanized means

>then you need engagement because if you are not occupied with propagating

>this Krishna consciousness or producing the essentials then you will pursue

>sense gratification.

 

Can you explain what you mean when you say:

 

>More manpower is needed. That is unless you become mechanized, mechanized

>means then you need engagement because if you are not occupied with

>propagating this Krishna consciousness or producing the essentials then you

>will pursue sense gratification.

 

I'm not quite sure what this paragraph means.

If I understand it correctly you are saying that if you are mechanized you

are not propagating Krsna Consciousness.... I don't agree with this.

 

Let's discuss this first.

[Guest guest]

Radha Krsna wrote

>

> Prabhu, would you not then agree that the principle should be that a

> farmer should make the money from agriculture more than he has been trying

> to do from milk? He shouldn't fall into 'hard times' ideally. Or is this

> not so possible because there is not sufficinet manpower to help him

> produce?

 

I agree but I would rather the term "make a living" rather than "make the

money". The Manu Samhita says one should not sell milk, if we stuck by this

maxim there would not be this problem. As soon as the possibility of making

money is there then the chance of exploitation arises. It is the duty of the

Vaisya to protect the cow not to make money from the milk. The Ksatriya

protects his citizens because it is his duty not to exploit them. The

husband protects his wife and daughter because it is his duty.

 

Your servant, Gokula das

[Guest guest]

Radha Krsna wrote

>

> Prabhu, would you not then agree that the principle should be that a

> farmer should make the money from agriculture more than he has been trying

> to do from milk? He shouldn't fall into 'hard times' ideally. Or is this

> not so possible because there is not sufficinet manpower to help him

> produce?

 

I agree but I would rather the term "make a living" rather than "make the

money". The Manu Samhita says one should not sell milk, if we stuck by this

maxim there would not be this problem. As soon as the possibility of making

money is there then the chance of exploitation arises. It is the duty of the

Vaisya to protect the cow not to make money from the milk. The Ksatriya

protects his citizens because it is his duty not to exploit them. The

husband protects his wife and daughter because it is his duty.

 

Your servant, Gokula das

[Guest guest]

COM: Radha Krs

 

> Thanks for this , this answers my question on the other recent

> headings

> about this subject, although I think different devotees have different

> ideas

> on this. That's fine - each to his own.

 

There will be different ways things happen because circumstances vary so

much in different climates and economic systems.

 

> Because we may fear that someone may not know what to do with his

> wealth it

> doesn't mean we should discourage him from making a start into

> becoming well

> situated or indeed opulent. This is what society needs. We should be

> doing

> this, not the Sanyassis - the Sanyassis shouldn't have to make any

> money -

> but because we are not - they probably feel they have to.

>

> comments?

 

I am searching for different terminology to express it, but that is

what I was trying to get at by saying you need to build from the bottom

up - the economic base needs to be in place, otherwise everything gets

topsy turvy.

[Guest guest]

COM: Radha Krs

 

> Thanks for this , this answers my question on the other recent

> headings

> about this subject, although I think different devotees have different

> ideas

> on this. That's fine - each to his own.

 

There will be different ways things happen because circumstances vary so

much in different climates and economic systems.

 

> Because we may fear that someone may not know what to do with his

> wealth it

> doesn't mean we should discourage him from making a start into

> becoming well

> situated or indeed opulent. This is what society needs. We should be

> doing

> this, not the Sanyassis - the Sanyassis shouldn't have to make any

> money -

> but because we are not - they probably feel they have to.

>

> comments?

 

I am searching for different terminology to express it, but that is

what I was trying to get at by saying you need to build from the bottom

up - the economic base needs to be in place, otherwise everything gets

topsy turvy.

[Guest guest]

On 03 May 1999, Gokula das wrote:

 

> It is the duty of the

> Vaisya to protect the cow not to make money from the milk.

 

What did Maharaj Nanda do with all his millions of gallons of milk a day? How

did he become so opulent? Is trade different than "making money"?

[Guest guest]

On 03 May 1999, Gokula das wrote:

 

> It is the duty of the

> Vaisya to protect the cow not to make money from the milk.

 

What did Maharaj Nanda do with all his millions of gallons of milk a day? How

did he become so opulent? Is trade different than "making money"?

[Guest guest]

>"COM: Radha Krsna (das) ACBSP GB (Great Britain)"

><Radha.Krsna.ACBSP.GB (AT) com (DOT) bbt.se>

>Radha.Krsna.ACBSP.GB (AT) com (DOT) bbt.se, Cow (AT) com (DOT) bbt.se,

>Varnasrama.development (AT) com (DOT) bbt.se

>"WWW: Rohita (Dasa) ACBSP (New Talavan MS - USA)" <talavan (AT) com (DOT) org>,

>jdf1 (AT) stsi (DOT) net, "COM: Cow (Protection and related issues)"

><Cow (AT) com (DOT) bbt.se>, "COM: Varnasrama development"

><Varnasrama.development (AT) com (DOT) bbt.se>

>Re: Cowslaughter in ISKCON?

>Mon, 3 May 99 05:38 +0900

>

>[Text 2284588 from COM]

>

>Rohita das wrote:

>

> >No agriculture in that light will also lead to the same scenario. More

> >manpower is needed. That is unless you become mechanized, mechanized

>means

> >then you need engagement because if you are not occupied with

>propagating

> >this Krishna consciousness or producing the essentials then you will

>pursue

> >sense gratification.

>

>Can you explain what you mean when you say:

>

> >More manpower is needed. That is unless you become mechanized, mechanized

> >means then you need engagement because if you are not occupied with

> >propagating this Krishna consciousness or producing the essentials then

>you

> >will pursue sense gratification.

>

>I'm not quite sure what this paragraph means.

>If I understand it correctly you are saying that if you are mechanized you

>are not propagating Krsna Consciousness.... I don't agree with this.

>

>Let's discuss this first.

>

>The relationship between giving up dependence on what Srila Prabhupada

>referred to as "machine civilization" and advancing in Krsna consciousness,

>was summed up in his farm motto "simple living, high thinking". He

>explained this also in great detail, that it means to completely depend on

>only what one can produce using the bull and the cow, thus living as the

>residents of Vrindavan do. He referred to this repeatedly as ideal life and

>urged us to take it up. He wanted us to base our farms on the village life

>of Vrindavan- we need to give up the brainwashing that civilization means

>dependence on machines- what has this technology accomplished? Massive

>unemployment, which translates into starvation in many countries; future

>starvation as our earth's resources reach the stage of being polluted

>beyond the point of sustaining life; even the so-called lucky ones with

>jobs- what are those jobs?- working in hellish exploitative situations.

>Civilization can sustainably survive and prosper into the far distant

>future, and simultaneously advance spiritually, by developing this culture.

>Srila Prabhupada describes the cow as the source of all wealth in human

>society, because she provides us with all the necessities of life (along

>with the bull), thus solving the economic problem. And because she is the

>emblem and embodiment of the mode of goodness, by solving our economic

>problems through the cow alone, we also develop the mode of goodness-

>which characterizes an ideal situation to develop in Krsna consciousness.

Yes, technology can be used for preaching Krsna consciousness- e.g. printing

books, but it is NOT preaching for our agriculture to be dependent on it

..YS, Niscala dd.

 

 

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>"COM: Radha Krsna (das) ACBSP GB (Great Britain)"

><Radha.Krsna.ACBSP.GB (AT) com (DOT) bbt.se>

>Radha.Krsna.ACBSP.GB (AT) com (DOT) bbt.se, Cow (AT) com (DOT) bbt.se,

>Varnasrama.development (AT) com (DOT) bbt.se

>"WWW: Rohita (Dasa) ACBSP (New Talavan MS - USA)" <talavan (AT) com (DOT) org>,

>jdf1 (AT) stsi (DOT) net, "COM: Cow (Protection and related issues)"

><Cow (AT) com (DOT) bbt.se>, "COM: Varnasrama development"

><Varnasrama.development (AT) com (DOT) bbt.se>

>Re: Cowslaughter in ISKCON?

>Mon, 3 May 99 05:38 +0900

>

>[Text 2284588 from COM]

>

>Rohita das wrote:

>

> >No agriculture in that light will also lead to the same scenario. More

> >manpower is needed. That is unless you become mechanized, mechanized

>means

> >then you need engagement because if you are not occupied with

>propagating

> >this Krishna consciousness or producing the essentials then you will

>pursue

> >sense gratification.

>

>Can you explain what you mean when you say:

>

> >More manpower is needed. That is unless you become mechanized, mechanized

> >means then you need engagement because if you are not occupied with

> >propagating this Krishna consciousness or producing the essentials then

>you

> >will pursue sense gratification.

>

>I'm not quite sure what this paragraph means.

>If I understand it correctly you are saying that if you are mechanized you

>are not propagating Krsna Consciousness.... I don't agree with this.

>

>Let's discuss this first.

>

>The relationship between giving up dependence on what Srila Prabhupada

>referred to as "machine civilization" and advancing in Krsna consciousness,

>was summed up in his farm motto "simple living, high thinking". He

>explained this also in great detail, that it means to completely depend on

>only what one can produce using the bull and the cow, thus living as the

>residents of Vrindavan do. He referred to this repeatedly as ideal life and

>urged us to take it up. He wanted us to base our farms on the village life

>of Vrindavan- we need to give up the brainwashing that civilization means

>dependence on machines- what has this technology accomplished? Massive

>unemployment, which translates into starvation in many countries; future

>starvation as our earth's resources reach the stage of being polluted

>beyond the point of sustaining life; even the so-called lucky ones with

>jobs- what are those jobs?- working in hellish exploitative situations.

>Civilization can sustainably survive and prosper into the far distant

>future, and simultaneously advance spiritually, by developing this culture.

>Srila Prabhupada describes the cow as the source of all wealth in human

>society, because she provides us with all the necessities of life (along

>with the bull), thus solving the economic problem. And because she is the

>emblem and embodiment of the mode of goodness, by solving our economic

>problems through the cow alone, we also develop the mode of goodness-

>which characterizes an ideal situation to develop in Krsna consciousness.

Yes, technology can be used for preaching Krsna consciousness- e.g. printing

books, but it is NOT preaching for our agriculture to be dependent on it

..YS, Niscala dd.

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Rohita das wrote

 >More manpower is needed. That is unless you become mechanized,

mechanized means then you need engagement because if you are not occupied

with propagating this Krishna consciousness or producing the essentials then

you will pursue sense gratification.

 

On 3 May 1999, Radha Krsna wrote:

 I'm not quite sure what this paragraph means.

 

Comment:

When engaged in agriculture you need an energy source. Both animals and men to

accomplish the work or a man with a variety of machines to do the labour. If

agriculture follows the mechanized route then those who could have been the

energy source – the field workers and the animals - will have to find some

other engagement. Society is now organized toward increasing material

pleasures – you need and I want. These areas are the biggest employment

opportunities – the entertainment and related fields – all centred on giving

the body pleasure. The animals well off to slaughter, more engagement for my

senses. If devotees are not engaged in working the land or out preaching about

Krsna they are going to go where the money is. Soon they will become attracted

to material activities, Krsna well only when I can find some time (Krsna is

then no longer priority).

 

On 3 May 1999, Radha Krsna wrote:

 If I understand it correctly you are saying that if you are

mechanized you are not propagating Krsna Consciousness.... I don't agree with

this. Let's discuss this first.

 

Comment:

You can be mechanized and Krsna conscious, but if you keep life simple and

fixed up in Krsna conscious philosophy it is easier. So why take the chance?

Mechanization will lead if you are not careful to activities that will

increase your karmic load. A simple life with no or very simple machines will

lessen this load. The bottom line is if a machine takes away the healthy and

proper engagement of man so that he is idle, he then has a choice to preach

about Krsna (the right choice) or to gratify his senses. For those who are not

philosophically (brahmana) inclined the only kind of works to engage in is:

1. Production of essentials (vaisyas),

2. Heavy labour (sudra),

3. The organization and proper management of society (ksatriya)

 

The second and third categories are dependent on the vaisyas. They are the

producers of raw materials, Sudras help in obtaining these things by doing the

heavier work needed. They, the Sudras, can not accomplish anything of

substance they lack the needed drive and their senses divert their attention.

The ksatriyas can organize and have the drive but productivity in materials is

not their propensity, the power of organizing and distributing is more their

forte, but they need the products to do this. Brahmana well they are not so

dependant, no detached is a better word. If it is there ok but if not no

problem.

 

If you have tractor 250 ox power (for examples sake) that means 250 oxen are

unemployed and also 125 teamsters. The oxen will go to slaughter house! And

the teamsters too – ugrakarma work, in some kind of factory. Teamsters are not

going to be brahmanas or ksatriyas, a few maybe vaisyas the majority will be

Sudra. In Mississippi the biggest employer for those of Sudra mentality are

the Casinos, it brings in money and you get to gamble, perfect. If they are

not engaged in work that can elevate their Krsna consciousness then that is

were they will go. Krsna C work being, distributing books and engaging in

other works that will attract others to Krsna. The propagating of the

congregational chanting of Krsna names is the activity all these varnas can do

together, there is no distinction in it. If devotees are not engaged in this

way and they are not engaged in work according to the above four orders then

they will be working for their senses. Just like this computer we are all

sitting at. Its only use is to increase ones Krsna consciousness, but if you

use it for something else it is going to lead to your further bondage. If we

were out there chanting and distributing books so many would becoming. Just

look at the American temples – do you see a bhakta program in each one? Does

every temple have an engagement every day of the week, if they don’t the

devotees in the temple are not fully engaged in preaching. Basically they are

doing some puja and eating, true they have some guests during the week but it

only takes one enthusiastic devotee to preach to them. Just look where are the

American devotees, they are grhastras working outside, occasionally attending

some preaching engagement or some festival. Who are in the temple? East

Europeans and Indians (mostly new devotees, but not made here in America).

Why? We have not been too active in the preaching realm for the last 10-15

years.

 

If we are not engaged in preaching as I have pointed out above, then it stands

to follow we would be engaged in some part of the productive group or helping

them. Are we, lets see – he does paintings, so does he, he is doing hats, he

is laying floors, she is clerking in a store, she is a massage therapist and

he is selling cars in town. Hmmm, … only one is actually engaged in what Srila

Prabhupada would be calling productive work, he is helping to provide shelter.

Sure what they are doing may seem useful, but if you will look closely not

really essential in a Vaisnava society. What they are doing can be engaged in

Krsna’s service, but one can live and glorify Krsna without what they are

providing to society – non-essential. Better they are engaged in essential

work and chant Hare Krsna.

Ys,

Rohita dasa

[Guest guest]

Rohita das wrote

 >More manpower is needed. That is unless you become mechanized,

mechanized means then you need engagement because if you are not occupied

with propagating this Krishna consciousness or producing the essentials then

you will pursue sense gratification.

 

On 3 May 1999, Radha Krsna wrote:

 I'm not quite sure what this paragraph means.

 

Comment:

When engaged in agriculture you need an energy source. Both animals and men to

accomplish the work or a man with a variety of machines to do the labour. If

agriculture follows the mechanized route then those who could have been the

energy source – the field workers and the animals - will have to find some

other engagement. Society is now organized toward increasing material

pleasures – you need and I want. These areas are the biggest employment

opportunities – the entertainment and related fields – all centred on giving

the body pleasure. The animals well off to slaughter, more engagement for my

senses. If devotees are not engaged in working the land or out preaching about

Krsna they are going to go where the money is. Soon they will become attracted

to material activities, Krsna well only when I can find some time (Krsna is

then no longer priority).

 

On 3 May 1999, Radha Krsna wrote:

 If I understand it correctly you are saying that if you are

mechanized you are not propagating Krsna Consciousness.... I don't agree with

this. Let's discuss this first.

 

Comment:

You can be mechanized and Krsna conscious, but if you keep life simple and

fixed up in Krsna conscious philosophy it is easier. So why take the chance?

Mechanization will lead if you are not careful to activities that will

increase your karmic load. A simple life with no or very simple machines will

lessen this load. The bottom line is if a machine takes away the healthy and

proper engagement of man so that he is idle, he then has a choice to preach

about Krsna (the right choice) or to gratify his senses. For those who are not

philosophically (brahmana) inclined the only kind of works to engage in is:

1. Production of essentials (vaisyas),

2. Heavy labour (sudra),

3. The organization and proper management of society (ksatriya)

 

The second and third categories are dependent on the vaisyas. They are the

producers of raw materials, Sudras help in obtaining these things by doing the

heavier work needed. They, the Sudras, can not accomplish anything of

substance they lack the needed drive and their senses divert their attention.

The ksatriyas can organize and have the drive but productivity in materials is

not their propensity, the power of organizing and distributing is more their

forte, but they need the products to do this. Brahmana well they are not so

dependant, no detached is a better word. If it is there ok but if not no

problem.

 

If you have tractor 250 ox power (for examples sake) that means 250 oxen are

unemployed and also 125 teamsters. The oxen will go to slaughter house! And

the teamsters too – ugrakarma work, in some kind of factory. Teamsters are not

going to be brahmanas or ksatriyas, a few maybe vaisyas the majority will be

Sudra. In Mississippi the biggest employer for those of Sudra mentality are

the Casinos, it brings in money and you get to gamble, perfect. If they are

not engaged in work that can elevate their Krsna consciousness then that is

were they will go. Krsna C work being, distributing books and engaging in

other works that will attract others to Krsna. The propagating of the

congregational chanting of Krsna names is the activity all these varnas can do

together, there is no distinction in it. If devotees are not engaged in this

way and they are not engaged in work according to the above four orders then

they will be working for their senses. Just like this computer we are all

sitting at. Its only use is to increase ones Krsna consciousness, but if you

use it for something else it is going to lead to your further bondage. If we

were out there chanting and distributing books so many would becoming. Just

look at the American temples – do you see a bhakta program in each one? Does

every temple have an engagement every day of the week, if they don’t the

devotees in the temple are not fully engaged in preaching. Basically they are

doing some puja and eating, true they have some guests during the week but it

only takes one enthusiastic devotee to preach to them. Just look where are the

American devotees, they are grhastras working outside, occasionally attending

some preaching engagement or some festival. Who are in the temple? East

Europeans and Indians (mostly new devotees, but not made here in America).

Why? We have not been too active in the preaching realm for the last 10-15

years.

 

If we are not engaged in preaching as I have pointed out above, then it stands

to follow we would be engaged in some part of the productive group or helping

them. Are we, lets see – he does paintings, so does he, he is doing hats, he

is laying floors, she is clerking in a store, she is a massage therapist and

he is selling cars in town. Hmmm, … only one is actually engaged in what Srila

Prabhupada would be calling productive work, he is helping to provide shelter.

Sure what they are doing may seem useful, but if you will look closely not

really essential in a Vaisnava society. What they are doing can be engaged in

Krsna’s service, but one can live and glorify Krsna without what they are

providing to society – non-essential. Better they are engaged in essential

work and chant Hare Krsna.

Ys,

Rohita dasa

[Guest guest]

On 02 May 1999, Niscala dd wrote:

> Yes, technology can be used for preaching Krsna consciousness- e.g. printing

books, but it is NOT preaching for our agriculture to be dependent on it

 

Comment:

Precisely, we always seem to think that because we have been given permission

to use something that it is alright to use it however we want. If it is not

directly used for preaching it is not essential and therefore we should not be

dependent upon it.

 

“Whatever is available easily we can use. There is no objection to using

electricity. But we should not be dependent upon it.” Letter to Nityananda

dated 16th March, 1977.

Ys,

Rohita dasa

[Guest guest]

On 02 May 1999, Niscala dd wrote:

> Yes, technology can be used for preaching Krsna consciousness- e.g. printing

books, but it is NOT preaching for our agriculture to be dependent on it

 

Comment:

Precisely, we always seem to think that because we have been given permission

to use something that it is alright to use it however we want. If it is not

directly used for preaching it is not essential and therefore we should not be

dependent upon it.

 

“Whatever is available easily we can use. There is no objection to using

electricity. But we should not be dependent upon it.” Letter to Nityananda

dated 16th March, 1977.

Ys,

Rohita dasa

[Guest guest]

> On 03 May 1999, Gokula das wrote:

> > It is the duty of the Vaisya to protect the cow not to make money from the

milk.

>

On 02 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

> What did Maharaj Nanda do with all his millions of gallons of milk a day? >

 

 

Comment:

40 gallons (181.1 litres) of whole milk is required to make 1 gallon (4.55

litres) of ghee. Just check out in Krsna book what was happening to the

yogurt, butter and ghee, also how much was used. Then look in Caitanya

Caritamrta and read about Raghunatha das how he was making arrangements for

feeding so many people and that will tell you where it all went.

 

On 02 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

How did he become so opulent?

 

Comment:

Where ever there is Krsna there is all opulence.

 

On 02 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

Is trade different than "making money"?

 

Comment:

First Canto: 17:39

… Kali asked for something more, and because of his begging, the King gave him

permission to live where there is gold because wherever there is gold there is

also falsity, intoxication, lust, envy and enmity.

Purport

………… Gold-standard currency is based on falsehood because the currency is not

on par with the reserved gold … artificial inflation by the authorities ………

price of commodities becomes artificially inflated. Instead of paper currency,

actual real gold coins should be used for exchange.

 

In the light of the preceding quotes from SB and Srila Prabhupada’s purport

until that comes into place living on the land and trading for essentials are

a better means of controlling the effects of Kali. It is very important that

money become purified by engaging it in the glorification of the Lord or for

feeding His devotees. Should it not be used like that than the five above

associates of Kali will become manifest in the Vaisnava camp. That is the

reason for Rupa Gosvamis formulae; 50% (to vaisnavas- brahmana and ksatriyas)

25% savings and 25% for family. This is not on the profit it is on the direct

income – otherwise in steps Kali.

Ys,

Rohita dasa

[Guest guest]

> On 03 May 1999, Gokula das wrote:

> > It is the duty of the Vaisya to protect the cow not to make money from the

milk.

>

On 02 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

> What did Maharaj Nanda do with all his millions of gallons of milk a day? >

 

 

Comment:

40 gallons (181.1 litres) of whole milk is required to make 1 gallon (4.55

litres) of ghee. Just check out in Krsna book what was happening to the

yogurt, butter and ghee, also how much was used. Then look in Caitanya

Caritamrta and read about Raghunatha das how he was making arrangements for

feeding so many people and that will tell you where it all went.

 

On 02 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

How did he become so opulent?

 

Comment:

Where ever there is Krsna there is all opulence.

 

On 02 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

Is trade different than "making money"?

 

Comment:

First Canto: 17:39

… Kali asked for something more, and because of his begging, the King gave him

permission to live where there is gold because wherever there is gold there is

also falsity, intoxication, lust, envy and enmity.

Purport

………… Gold-standard currency is based on falsehood because the currency is not

on par with the reserved gold … artificial inflation by the authorities ………

price of commodities becomes artificially inflated. Instead of paper currency,

actual real gold coins should be used for exchange.

 

In the light of the preceding quotes from SB and Srila Prabhupada’s purport

until that comes into place living on the land and trading for essentials are

a better means of controlling the effects of Kali. It is very important that

money become purified by engaging it in the glorification of the Lord or for

feeding His devotees. Should it not be used like that than the five above

associates of Kali will become manifest in the Vaisnava camp. That is the

reason for Rupa Gosvamis formulae; 50% (to vaisnavas- brahmana and ksatriyas)

25% savings and 25% for family. This is not on the profit it is on the direct

income – otherwise in steps Kali.

Ys,

Rohita dasa