Guest guest Posted May 8, 1999 Report Share Posted May 8, 1999 In a message dated 99-05-07 00:02:30 EDT, you write: << That means, in practial life, that you can not be sure of any ISKCON Guru, until he left his body, and is declared all bonafied of similar persons who are also bona fide and left their bodies without falling down. For sure some more of the ISKCON leadership will fall down, but when they do they were eternally cheaters, which means that they cannot be trusted now either. Since we don't know who is going to fall down, and who is not going to, how can we know who to trust? A hopeless situation where you cannot trust anyone. Obviously there must be a flaw in the reasoning and a way out of this deadlock. Spriritual life is not supposed to be a gamble. ys Prisni dasi >> And actually even after they have left their bodies apparently in good standing with Krsna, there will still be rumors circulating, as has been recently insinuated about HH Gour Govinda Swami. Spiritual life is not a gamble but it is not a sure thing either, the unknown element is personal commitment and honestly assessing ones personal commitment is not always easy. We know that Srila Prabhupada said his disciples would take disciples but what does that mean? Is that the responsibility of a few or of many? Did Srila Prabhupada actually set up this bureaucratic system of the GBC approving whether or not one of his disciples can become a guru? Or did we just do the needful to implement his instruction and this ungainly system developed? Can we really know what is in another's heart? Do we as a spiritual community really encourage personal introspection and personal responsibilty in spiritual life or do we pay lip service to these ideals and then use subtle manipulation to accomplish particular financial, eh, I mean spiritual goals? Perhaps the current on going dilemna of disciples deserted by fallen gurus is partially due to the fact that ISKCON's current emphasis on the qualifications of the Guru is too one sided. There appears to be little emphasis on new devotees actually taking the necessary time to become qualified disciples who have the capability of discerning quailified guru before seeking initiation. That could take many, many years. It did in Srila Prabhupada's case, can ISKCON or the current gurus afford to wait or are we still in emergency mode? We have stressed the importance of a pure guru but we are leaving out the importance of developing a sincere heart and reasonable knowledge and commitment to the scriptures before even seeking initiation. We push enthusiasm, but for various reasons we as a society neglect the gravity of this decision that requires exceptional introspection. Western society is rather goal oriented and being accepted as a disciple ( or a guru for that matter) becomes another goal accomplished, rather than the most important commitment of a lifetime. "Well I must be advancing in spiritual life, I have been accepted as a disciple (and by a prestigious and popular guru at that)." or even "Well I must be advancing, I have been accepted as a Guru by the GBC ". Not " I know I am advancing because there are less dirty things in my heart." I am not implying that ISKCON is intentionally perpetrating fraud for some ultior motive only that perhaps we are not very mature in spiritual life. We are still tangled up in appearances rather than concerned with in depth realities. Unfortunately this is probably only the reflection of the personal experience many of us have had in this regard, so it does not even seem like a spiritual anomaly. And even though it is certain that there are some very qualified disciples and gurus out there, history has shown this to be the exception rather than the general rule. There are a number of disciples of SP who would probably agree that they were simply fortunate, and had no qualifications to become a disciple. (Perhaps deep down in my heart of hearts I am are hopeful that there was some grain of qualification there, but on an honest day I have to admit to myself that Srila Prabhupada created mercy out of less than nothing - in my case anyway, certainly there are others who were indeed qualified to be disciples) But for the most part, somehow we were just lucky because Srila Prabhupada, by his desire, created our good fortune, not that we had any real understanding at the time just how fortunate that was. But I submit that times have changed and some of the current gurus are imitating Srila Prabhupada's mercy in accepting disciples rather quickly rather than requiring disciples to follow in the footsteps of SP and take some time to make this importatnt commitment. And we are expecting these gurus to already be at some spiritual pinnacle rather than understanding that they are continuing to advance in purity and to develop their relationship with SP even after becoming a guru. The guru disciple relationship is not stagnant for the disciple or for the guru but one that will continue to develop and mature for the entire relationship, we seem to overlook that point. Someone's guru is also someone's disciple. Is it possible to become "more pure" ? and what is the specific quality of purity? Do we as individuals have some personal realization about this yet? does that mean that SP was never wrong about any mundane topic? (what about train schedules?) If he were shown to be wrong about something would that undermine his purity in our eyes? As the situation is now, ( correct me if my understanding is wrong) someone applies or is recommended to the GBC for "guruship" (for obvious reasons, I haven't investigated the exact procedure) then I suppose they pass some years of verifiably strict following of the regs, and perform some type of service that is recognizable and pleasing to the GBC and eventually they are approved by a GBC vote to accept disciples. Here then is the rub, the GBC have a disclaimer that basically states "we have approved this person to take disciples but it is up to the propective disciples to figure out whether or not this person is the genuine guru article," (basically we the GBC are not responsible in any way should this person later fall down and be revealed as a cheater) Then if the unfortunate soul does fall from the path as we know it, the GBC distance themselves from this person and basically come up with some quick quotes as to why the disciples should continue in ISKCON ( we wouldn't want to loose the resources) in spite of just having been apparently cheated. Didn't Srila Prabhpada say those who want to be cheated will find cheaters? Perhaps it is not that someone is looking to be cheated but simply minimizing their commitment to the process of searching for a spirital master because of a GBC recommendation. Now we wait to see who the next fallen guru might be. If we have a drop of mercy and no envy we might be praying that there will be no more fallen gurus, but do we really believe that we have seen the last? Perhaps the GBC should get out of the guru authorization business all together. Put this process back into the hands of those who are intimately involved, the prospective guru and the prospective disciple. Take it off the mystical platform and put it on the practical platform. Who authorized Srila Prabhupada to take disciples, who authorized Jaganath das Babaji? Was either of these events up to a bureaucratic vote? Even with the GBC's disclaimer, authorization from them lends a "seal of approval" that many prospective disciples don't look past. Rather than the "super gurus" with thousands of disciples that they don't really know, maybe we should scale down and approach this on a grass roots level. Is it so far fetched that a simple devotee, man or woman, for that matter, who is faithfully reflecting Srila Prabhupada and sincerely following is not also guru material? Why the emphasis on powerful and flamboyant leaders with large numbers of followers? Keep it simple, low key even, open up the field to all of Srila Prabhupadas disciples without lending some quasi and ineffective GBC guarantee to a select few. Make it a matter of the heart rather than a matter of convincing a commision. Make it a more personal experience that deserves some time, thought and scrutiny from both sides. Certainly there will be some gurus who still fall, but will it affect thousands ? Wouldn't it be harder to desert 5 disciples whom the guru knows on an intimate level rather than 3000 he has been isolated from and would barely recognize? Would there not be more community support on a basic level for 2 or 3 disciples who have had the misfortune to loose a spiritual master rather than 1 or 2 thousand disciples? Would you not rather have your children approach a godbrother (or godsister) who you have personaly witnessed in your community struggling to grow in purity through the years and advance in commitment to SP and KC? I would. When I think of my child becoming the disciple of someone who has 3000 other disciples my heart quakes. Maybe it is time for a small change in emphasis. yhs Kanti dd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 1999 Report Share Posted May 8, 1999 In a message dated 99-05-07 00:02:30 EDT, you write: << That means, in practial life, that you can not be sure of any ISKCON Guru, until he left his body, and is declared all bonafied of similar persons who are also bona fide and left their bodies without falling down. For sure some more of the ISKCON leadership will fall down, but when they do they were eternally cheaters, which means that they cannot be trusted now either. Since we don't know who is going to fall down, and who is not going to, how can we know who to trust? A hopeless situation where you cannot trust anyone. Obviously there must be a flaw in the reasoning and a way out of this deadlock. Spriritual life is not supposed to be a gamble. ys Prisni dasi >> And actually even after they have left their bodies apparently in good standing with Krsna, there will still be rumors circulating, as has been recently insinuated about HH Gour Govinda Swami. Spiritual life is not a gamble but it is not a sure thing either, the unknown element is personal commitment and honestly assessing ones personal commitment is not always easy. We know that Srila Prabhupada said his disciples would take disciples but what does that mean? Is that the responsibility of a few or of many? Did Srila Prabhupada actually set up this bureaucratic system of the GBC approving whether or not one of his disciples can become a guru? Or did we just do the needful to implement his instruction and this ungainly system developed? Can we really know what is in another's heart? Do we as a spiritual community really encourage personal introspection and personal responsibilty in spiritual life or do we pay lip service to these ideals and then use subtle manipulation to accomplish particular financial, eh, I mean spiritual goals? Perhaps the current on going dilemna of disciples deserted by fallen gurus is partially due to the fact that ISKCON's current emphasis on the qualifications of the Guru is too one sided. There appears to be little emphasis on new devotees actually taking the necessary time to become qualified disciples who have the capability of discerning quailified guru before seeking initiation. That could take many, many years. It did in Srila Prabhupada's case, can ISKCON or the current gurus afford to wait or are we still in emergency mode? We have stressed the importance of a pure guru but we are leaving out the importance of developing a sincere heart and reasonable knowledge and commitment to the scriptures before even seeking initiation. We push enthusiasm, but for various reasons we as a society neglect the gravity of this decision that requires exceptional introspection. Western society is rather goal oriented and being accepted as a disciple ( or a guru for that matter) becomes another goal accomplished, rather than the most important commitment of a lifetime. "Well I must be advancing in spiritual life, I have been accepted as a disciple (and by a prestigious and popular guru at that)." or even "Well I must be advancing, I have been accepted as a Guru by the GBC ". Not " I know I am advancing because there are less dirty things in my heart." I am not implying that ISKCON is intentionally perpetrating fraud for some ultior motive only that perhaps we are not very mature in spiritual life. We are still tangled up in appearances rather than concerned with in depth realities. Unfortunately this is probably only the reflection of the personal experience many of us have had in this regard, so it does not even seem like a spiritual anomaly. And even though it is certain that there are some very qualified disciples and gurus out there, history has shown this to be the exception rather than the general rule. There are a number of disciples of SP who would probably agree that they were simply fortunate, and had no qualifications to become a disciple. (Perhaps deep down in my heart of hearts I am are hopeful that there was some grain of qualification there, but on an honest day I have to admit to myself that Srila Prabhupada created mercy out of less than nothing - in my case anyway, certainly there are others who were indeed qualified to be disciples) But for the most part, somehow we were just lucky because Srila Prabhupada, by his desire, created our good fortune, not that we had any real understanding at the time just how fortunate that was. But I submit that times have changed and some of the current gurus are imitating Srila Prabhupada's mercy in accepting disciples rather quickly rather than requiring disciples to follow in the footsteps of SP and take some time to make this importatnt commitment. And we are expecting these gurus to already be at some spiritual pinnacle rather than understanding that they are continuing to advance in purity and to develop their relationship with SP even after becoming a guru. The guru disciple relationship is not stagnant for the disciple or for the guru but one that will continue to develop and mature for the entire relationship, we seem to overlook that point. Someone's guru is also someone's disciple. Is it possible to become "more pure" ? and what is the specific quality of purity? Do we as individuals have some personal realization about this yet? does that mean that SP was never wrong about any mundane topic? (what about train schedules?) If he were shown to be wrong about something would that undermine his purity in our eyes? As the situation is now, ( correct me if my understanding is wrong) someone applies or is recommended to the GBC for "guruship" (for obvious reasons, I haven't investigated the exact procedure) then I suppose they pass some years of verifiably strict following of the regs, and perform some type of service that is recognizable and pleasing to the GBC and eventually they are approved by a GBC vote to accept disciples. Here then is the rub, the GBC have a disclaimer that basically states "we have approved this person to take disciples but it is up to the propective disciples to figure out whether or not this person is the genuine guru article," (basically we the GBC are not responsible in any way should this person later fall down and be revealed as a cheater) Then if the unfortunate soul does fall from the path as we know it, the GBC distance themselves from this person and basically come up with some quick quotes as to why the disciples should continue in ISKCON ( we wouldn't want to loose the resources) in spite of just having been apparently cheated. Didn't Srila Prabhpada say those who want to be cheated will find cheaters? Perhaps it is not that someone is looking to be cheated but simply minimizing their commitment to the process of searching for a spirital master because of a GBC recommendation. Now we wait to see who the next fallen guru might be. If we have a drop of mercy and no envy we might be praying that there will be no more fallen gurus, but do we really believe that we have seen the last? Perhaps the GBC should get out of the guru authorization business all together. Put this process back into the hands of those who are intimately involved, the prospective guru and the prospective disciple. Take it off the mystical platform and put it on the practical platform. Who authorized Srila Prabhupada to take disciples, who authorized Jaganath das Babaji? Was either of these events up to a bureaucratic vote? Even with the GBC's disclaimer, authorization from them lends a "seal of approval" that many prospective disciples don't look past. Rather than the "super gurus" with thousands of disciples that they don't really know, maybe we should scale down and approach this on a grass roots level. Is it so far fetched that a simple devotee, man or woman, for that matter, who is faithfully reflecting Srila Prabhupada and sincerely following is not also guru material? Why the emphasis on powerful and flamboyant leaders with large numbers of followers? Keep it simple, low key even, open up the field to all of Srila Prabhupadas disciples without lending some quasi and ineffective GBC guarantee to a select few. Make it a matter of the heart rather than a matter of convincing a commision. Make it a more personal experience that deserves some time, thought and scrutiny from both sides. Certainly there will be some gurus who still fall, but will it affect thousands ? Wouldn't it be harder to desert 5 disciples whom the guru knows on an intimate level rather than 3000 he has been isolated from and would barely recognize? Would there not be more community support on a basic level for 2 or 3 disciples who have had the misfortune to loose a spiritual master rather than 1 or 2 thousand disciples? Would you not rather have your children approach a godbrother (or godsister) who you have personaly witnessed in your community struggling to grow in purity through the years and advance in commitment to SP and KC? I would. When I think of my child becoming the disciple of someone who has 3000 other disciples my heart quakes. Maybe it is time for a small change in emphasis. yhs Kanti dd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 1999 Report Share Posted May 8, 1999 > But I submit that times have changed and some of the current gurus are > imitating Srila Prabhupada's mercy in accepting disciples rather quickly > rather than requiring disciples to follow in the footsteps of SP and take > some time to make this importatnt commitment. And we are expecting these > gurus to already be at some spiritual pinnacle rather than understanding > that they are continuing to advance in purity and to develop their > relationship with SP even after becoming a guru. The guru disciple > relationship is not stagnant for the disciple or for the guru but one that > will continue to develop and mature for the entire relationship, we seem > to overlook that point. Someone's guru is also someone's disciple. Is it > possible to become "more pure" ? and what is the specific quality of > purity? Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Thank you very much for that text. Just before joining the devotees made a program in our home and I asked a lot of questions about what a guru is and who is a guru, I recieved practically no answers. It felt a little as if I was intruding on some private area for more advanched devotees. I could sense secrets. I still wonder why it was like that, it was in the eighties. However just before they left one of the devotees put a badger on my shirt with a picture of a smiling man. "This is your guru."She said. I felt blessed but could not help wondering how she could know that.This devotee was one of the most sincere, goodhearted and humble persons I have ever known, however her prediction proved to be wrong at least in relation to diksa. After 2 years of worshipping the smiling man, who gave inspirering lectures and seemed to be very concerned about all devotees, I send my son to Gurukula in Sweden. The TP then said that he had told the guru about my son being enrolled and the guru had asked:" who is this bhaktin?" Again I wondered, since I had thought that he would have been given regular reports and would be knowing me having been trying to serve him for 2 years, but obviously he had never heard of me before. But then one morning new guru's were introduced by the TP, I felt grateful and right about it, it deepened my appreciation for the smiling man, that he had made such an arrangement. When going to Sweden with my son, which was one of the most heartbreaking parts of my spiritual life, I saw a devotee which impressed me a lot. I would like to praise him but is afraid to hurt someones feelings so I will let it be. It is not the purpose of this text to prove my guru superior but if possible to broaden the understanding around guru/disciplerelationship which I feel is the most important one we have. When my husband told the TP about my appreciation of this devotee. The TP put me off the gurupuja, which I had taken part in for more than 2 years telling me that maybe this was my guru. I felt bewildered. Soon after my guru came visiting and my appreciation grew. I started to listen to his tapes and felt great inspiration in my spiritual life.One year later my husband was initiated but I was still "hanging there unadvanched." The TP told me to write a letter to my guru. After one year I got it together. However the answer I got was negative. He did not want me. This was a big and very elevating surprise. Up until now I had never thought that this could be a possibility. It had simply seemed like I was supposed to surrender and immediately the guru would be there, it was a paradigm-shift, the guru is a person, not simply an official title. To follow the rules and regulations is a part of spiritual life, but to develop a personal relationship with a spiritual master is more than that. It can be quite difficult because someone sees your mistakes,naivite,pride and so on and then they become visible to yourself too, but to establish that relationship yourself and with all the dangers of being put off was to me an essential lesson in spiritual life. I know that I wanted it and begged for it, and I know that he accepted me and finally gave me initiation out of his own mercy, he did not have to neither did I. When I was initiated my guru said that a real guru does not make disciples and remains a guru, however if he does not do the work of a guru the spiritual lineage will stop, he does the work as a guru as a service to his own spiritual master. He is also a disciple. (I believe this is a quote from Srila Bhaktisidhanta) He also said that initiation was not the goal but simply the opening of the doors, now we ourselves would have to walk that path back home. He also said that at the time of initiation the disciple becomes as dear to Krishna as Himself. So if someone has become so dear to Krishna why think that Krishna will simply ignore him/her. And that goes for both disciple and spiritual master. Time I am, Krishna says. > Perhaps it is not that someone is looking to be cheated but simply >minimizing >their commitment to the process of searching for a spirital master because >of a GBC recommendation. Or because of being made feel uncomfortable about making personal choices and being responsible for our own lifes. >Make it a matter of the heart >rather than a matter of convincing a commision. Make it a more personal >experience that deserves some time, thought and scrutiny from both sides. Yes, lets allow eachother to make individual choices in life in our own pace and still be accepted as devotees on some level . We should stop to see the initiation as a stemple of proof, and instead base our personal relationships on qualities, practicality and service. Srila Prabhupada himself as you mentioned served Krishna his whole childhood and youth without being formally initiated, similarly our children does a lot of service with quite a pure heart and without being initiated, Krishna accepts it or what do you all think? For a plant to grow it needs water, nourishment, and sun. The right amounts on the right time is quite essential but also quite individual depending on which plant. Too much manure too early can kill the plant, similarly too many people watering can drown it. We need a personal gardener and he must offer to Krishna whatever we can produce by his able support, not enjoy it for himself, thats the proof and the connection. Quite simple actually. "What ever you do you should do it as an offering to Me." "In this endeavour there is no loss or diminuition and even a little advancement on this path can protect one from the greatest fear." Sorry for becoming so preachy here.I am avare that I am not the best example. Now off to the garden to improve... Your servant Gunamani d.d. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 1999 Report Share Posted May 8, 1999 > But I submit that times have changed and some of the current gurus are > imitating Srila Prabhupada's mercy in accepting disciples rather quickly > rather than requiring disciples to follow in the footsteps of SP and take > some time to make this importatnt commitment. And we are expecting these > gurus to already be at some spiritual pinnacle rather than understanding > that they are continuing to advance in purity and to develop their > relationship with SP even after becoming a guru. The guru disciple > relationship is not stagnant for the disciple or for the guru but one that > will continue to develop and mature for the entire relationship, we seem > to overlook that point. Someone's guru is also someone's disciple. Is it > possible to become "more pure" ? and what is the specific quality of > purity? Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Thank you very much for that text. Just before joining the devotees made a program in our home and I asked a lot of questions about what a guru is and who is a guru, I recieved practically no answers. It felt a little as if I was intruding on some private area for more advanched devotees. I could sense secrets. I still wonder why it was like that, it was in the eighties. However just before they left one of the devotees put a badger on my shirt with a picture of a smiling man. "This is your guru."She said. I felt blessed but could not help wondering how she could know that.This devotee was one of the most sincere, goodhearted and humble persons I have ever known, however her prediction proved to be wrong at least in relation to diksa. After 2 years of worshipping the smiling man, who gave inspirering lectures and seemed to be very concerned about all devotees, I send my son to Gurukula in Sweden. The TP then said that he had told the guru about my son being enrolled and the guru had asked:" who is this bhaktin?" Again I wondered, since I had thought that he would have been given regular reports and would be knowing me having been trying to serve him for 2 years, but obviously he had never heard of me before. But then one morning new guru's were introduced by the TP, I felt grateful and right about it, it deepened my appreciation for the smiling man, that he had made such an arrangement. When going to Sweden with my son, which was one of the most heartbreaking parts of my spiritual life, I saw a devotee which impressed me a lot. I would like to praise him but is afraid to hurt someones feelings so I will let it be. It is not the purpose of this text to prove my guru superior but if possible to broaden the understanding around guru/disciplerelationship which I feel is the most important one we have. When my husband told the TP about my appreciation of this devotee. The TP put me off the gurupuja, which I had taken part in for more than 2 years telling me that maybe this was my guru. I felt bewildered. Soon after my guru came visiting and my appreciation grew. I started to listen to his tapes and felt great inspiration in my spiritual life.One year later my husband was initiated but I was still "hanging there unadvanched." The TP told me to write a letter to my guru. After one year I got it together. However the answer I got was negative. He did not want me. This was a big and very elevating surprise. Up until now I had never thought that this could be a possibility. It had simply seemed like I was supposed to surrender and immediately the guru would be there, it was a paradigm-shift, the guru is a person, not simply an official title. To follow the rules and regulations is a part of spiritual life, but to develop a personal relationship with a spiritual master is more than that. It can be quite difficult because someone sees your mistakes,naivite,pride and so on and then they become visible to yourself too, but to establish that relationship yourself and with all the dangers of being put off was to me an essential lesson in spiritual life. I know that I wanted it and begged for it, and I know that he accepted me and finally gave me initiation out of his own mercy, he did not have to neither did I. When I was initiated my guru said that a real guru does not make disciples and remains a guru, however if he does not do the work of a guru the spiritual lineage will stop, he does the work as a guru as a service to his own spiritual master. He is also a disciple. (I believe this is a quote from Srila Bhaktisidhanta) He also said that initiation was not the goal but simply the opening of the doors, now we ourselves would have to walk that path back home. He also said that at the time of initiation the disciple becomes as dear to Krishna as Himself. So if someone has become so dear to Krishna why think that Krishna will simply ignore him/her. And that goes for both disciple and spiritual master. Time I am, Krishna says. > Perhaps it is not that someone is looking to be cheated but simply >minimizing >their commitment to the process of searching for a spirital master because >of a GBC recommendation. Or because of being made feel uncomfortable about making personal choices and being responsible for our own lifes. >Make it a matter of the heart >rather than a matter of convincing a commision. Make it a more personal >experience that deserves some time, thought and scrutiny from both sides. Yes, lets allow eachother to make individual choices in life in our own pace and still be accepted as devotees on some level . We should stop to see the initiation as a stemple of proof, and instead base our personal relationships on qualities, practicality and service. Srila Prabhupada himself as you mentioned served Krishna his whole childhood and youth without being formally initiated, similarly our children does a lot of service with quite a pure heart and without being initiated, Krishna accepts it or what do you all think? For a plant to grow it needs water, nourishment, and sun. The right amounts on the right time is quite essential but also quite individual depending on which plant. Too much manure too early can kill the plant, similarly too many people watering can drown it. We need a personal gardener and he must offer to Krishna whatever we can produce by his able support, not enjoy it for himself, thats the proof and the connection. Quite simple actually. "What ever you do you should do it as an offering to Me." "In this endeavour there is no loss or diminuition and even a little advancement on this path can protect one from the greatest fear." Sorry for becoming so preachy here.I am avare that I am not the best example. Now off to the garden to improve... Your servant Gunamani d.d. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 1999 Report Share Posted May 8, 1999 On 07 May 1999, Kanti dd wrote: > > As the situation is now, ( correct me if my understanding is wrong) someone applies or is recommended to the GBC for "guruship" (for obvious reasons, I haven't investigated the exact procedure) then I suppose they pass some years of verifiably strict following of the regs, and perform some type of service that is recognizable and pleasing to the GBC and eventually they are approved by a GBC vote to accept disciples. > > I don't believe someone applies to the GBC for "guruship" since that is not an institutional position. My understanding is that if someone is being approached by prospective disciples for diksa, then there is a procedure by which objections can be raised before such relationships can go forward. If the diksa guru candidate passes this procedure, then ISKCON will state it has 'no-objection' to the guru candidated offering diksa within ISKCON. After all, the guru/disciple relationship has gone on long before ISKCON's advent, and presently both inside and outside our society. It seems to me the GBC's jurisdiction is if our institution wishes to recognize the relationship in an official capacity. The GBC does not gaurentee pure devotional service. Anyway, that is how I have been reading it, others may have more insight. ys, Sthita-dhi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 1999 Report Share Posted May 8, 1999 On 07 May 1999, Kanti dd wrote: > > As the situation is now, ( correct me if my understanding is wrong) someone applies or is recommended to the GBC for "guruship" (for obvious reasons, I haven't investigated the exact procedure) then I suppose they pass some years of verifiably strict following of the regs, and perform some type of service that is recognizable and pleasing to the GBC and eventually they are approved by a GBC vote to accept disciples. > > I don't believe someone applies to the GBC for "guruship" since that is not an institutional position. My understanding is that if someone is being approached by prospective disciples for diksa, then there is a procedure by which objections can be raised before such relationships can go forward. If the diksa guru candidate passes this procedure, then ISKCON will state it has 'no-objection' to the guru candidated offering diksa within ISKCON. After all, the guru/disciple relationship has gone on long before ISKCON's advent, and presently both inside and outside our society. It seems to me the GBC's jurisdiction is if our institution wishes to recognize the relationship in an official capacity. The GBC does not gaurentee pure devotional service. Anyway, that is how I have been reading it, others may have more insight. ys, Sthita-dhi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 1999 Report Share Posted May 8, 1999 At 7:46 -0800 5/8/99, WWW: Sthita-dhi-muni (Dasa) SDG (Alachua FL - USA) wrote: >I don't believe someone applies to the GBC for "guruship" since that is not an >institutional position. My understanding is that if someone is being >approached by prospective disciples for diksa, then there is a procedure by >which objections can be raised before such relationships can go forward. If >the diksa guru candidate passes this procedure, then ISKCON will state it has >'no-objection' to the guru candidated offering diksa within ISKCON. That is my understanding too. Afterwards the responsibility lies with the prospective disciple. I think this is where the system has sometimes fallen apart. Not enough consumer education. Ys, Madhusudani dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 1999 Report Share Posted May 8, 1999 At 7:46 -0800 5/8/99, WWW: Sthita-dhi-muni (Dasa) SDG (Alachua FL - USA) wrote: >I don't believe someone applies to the GBC for "guruship" since that is not an >institutional position. My understanding is that if someone is being >approached by prospective disciples for diksa, then there is a procedure by >which objections can be raised before such relationships can go forward. If >the diksa guru candidate passes this procedure, then ISKCON will state it has >'no-objection' to the guru candidated offering diksa within ISKCON. That is my understanding too. Afterwards the responsibility lies with the prospective disciple. I think this is where the system has sometimes fallen apart. Not enough consumer education. Ys, Madhusudani dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 1999 Report Share Posted May 9, 1999 > At 7:46 -0800 5/8/99, WWW: Sthita-dhi-muni (Dasa) SDG (Alachua FL - USA) > wrote: > >I don't believe someone applies to the GBC for "guruship" since that is > >not an institutional position. My understanding is that if someone is > >being approached by prospective disciples for diksa, then there is a > >procedure by which objections can be raised before such relationships can > >go forward. If the diksa guru candidate passes this procedure, then > >ISKCON will state it has 'no-objection' to the guru candidated offering > >diksa within ISKCON. > > That is my understanding too. Afterwards the responsibility lies with the > prospective disciple. I think this is where the system has sometimes > fallen apart. Not enough consumer education. And what if a qualified guru gets the foot down from the GBC, because some of the members of the GBC don't see that he / she is qualified? It could be enough that a group of devotees think that the GBC made the wrong decision putting the foot down, and then another group develops, which would be called deviators, even if maybe most of the GBC members agree about the qualification of the prospective guru. I am not convinced that the present system is very good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 1999 Report Share Posted May 9, 1999 > At 7:46 -0800 5/8/99, WWW: Sthita-dhi-muni (Dasa) SDG (Alachua FL - USA) > wrote: > >I don't believe someone applies to the GBC for "guruship" since that is > >not an institutional position. My understanding is that if someone is > >being approached by prospective disciples for diksa, then there is a > >procedure by which objections can be raised before such relationships can > >go forward. If the diksa guru candidate passes this procedure, then > >ISKCON will state it has 'no-objection' to the guru candidated offering > >diksa within ISKCON. > > That is my understanding too. Afterwards the responsibility lies with the > prospective disciple. I think this is where the system has sometimes > fallen apart. Not enough consumer education. And what if a qualified guru gets the foot down from the GBC, because some of the members of the GBC don't see that he / she is qualified? It could be enough that a group of devotees think that the GBC made the wrong decision putting the foot down, and then another group develops, which would be called deviators, even if maybe most of the GBC members agree about the qualification of the prospective guru. I am not convinced that the present system is very good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 1999 Report Share Posted May 9, 1999 > > > It could be enough that a group of devotees think that the GBC made the > wrong decision putting the foot down, and then another group develops, which > would be called deviators, even if maybe most of the GBC members agree about > the qualification of the prospective guru. > > I am not convinced that the present system is very good. I think the GBC should not be considered having the ultimate authority as to who is bona fide or not, that is actually the function of the disciple. But I think they can be considered like a consumer protection agency, that can make recommendations to the best of their knowledge. There is an institution, there are temples, so some standard has to be applied. Institutions by nature are flawed, so it is unrealistic to expect perfection, but if someone is know to have had problems , that should be made available to potential disciples. I have personally had the experience where a very intelligent, charismatic, well versed in sastra, successful preacher with good sadhana was asking the GBC for approval as guru. However, due to circumstances wherein he had been personally been insturmental in keeping Kirtananada in power in NV, even after the majority of Prabhupada disciples had come to the conclusion that it was obvious he shouldn't be, and had performed some underhanded political stratagies to do so, objectio was made to his recommendation. His prestige in the community at that time was due to his loyalty to Kirtananada as well as access to large sums of money. After solidifying his position, he finally dropped Kirtananada and then had the audacity to say he had known Kirtananada was off all along and went building himself up in ISKCON. A large group of devotees in NV wrote a letter to the GBC objecting to his recommendation and the GBC accordingly withheld their recommendation. As he is quite expert at playing the devotee and playing politics, I don't doubt that eventually he will try again for recommendation, and eventually weasel his way in, but at least for a while the GBC has done some good service by protecting disciples from his charisma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 1999 Report Share Posted May 9, 1999 > > > It could be enough that a group of devotees think that the GBC made the > wrong decision putting the foot down, and then another group develops, which > would be called deviators, even if maybe most of the GBC members agree about > the qualification of the prospective guru. > > I am not convinced that the present system is very good. I think the GBC should not be considered having the ultimate authority as to who is bona fide or not, that is actually the function of the disciple. But I think they can be considered like a consumer protection agency, that can make recommendations to the best of their knowledge. There is an institution, there are temples, so some standard has to be applied. Institutions by nature are flawed, so it is unrealistic to expect perfection, but if someone is know to have had problems , that should be made available to potential disciples. I have personally had the experience where a very intelligent, charismatic, well versed in sastra, successful preacher with good sadhana was asking the GBC for approval as guru. However, due to circumstances wherein he had been personally been insturmental in keeping Kirtananada in power in NV, even after the majority of Prabhupada disciples had come to the conclusion that it was obvious he shouldn't be, and had performed some underhanded political stratagies to do so, objectio was made to his recommendation. His prestige in the community at that time was due to his loyalty to Kirtananada as well as access to large sums of money. After solidifying his position, he finally dropped Kirtananada and then had the audacity to say he had known Kirtananada was off all along and went building himself up in ISKCON. A large group of devotees in NV wrote a letter to the GBC objecting to his recommendation and the GBC accordingly withheld their recommendation. As he is quite expert at playing the devotee and playing politics, I don't doubt that eventually he will try again for recommendation, and eventually weasel his way in, but at least for a while the GBC has done some good service by protecting disciples from his charisma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 1999 Report Share Posted May 9, 1999 On 08 May 1999, Madhusudani Radha wrote: > > That is my understanding too. Afterwards the responsibility lies with the prospective disciple. I think this is where the system has sometimes > fallen apart. Not enough consumer education. > > It seems to me that spiritual education is meant to be ISKCON's primary contribution to society. Maybe some course or program could be developed for new devotees along the lines of a VIHE seminar. There could even be obligatory correspondence courses for living in a geographically remotse place yet aspiring for diksa within ISKCON. Not only would this help present the important issues in a sober format, it would also encourage an official period of introspectiveness that would help discourage decisions based on superficial romantic ideas or other similarly temporary infatuations. ys, sthita-dhi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 1999 Report Share Posted May 9, 1999 On 08 May 1999, Madhusudani Radha wrote: > > That is my understanding too. Afterwards the responsibility lies with the prospective disciple. I think this is where the system has sometimes > fallen apart. Not enough consumer education. > > It seems to me that spiritual education is meant to be ISKCON's primary contribution to society. Maybe some course or program could be developed for new devotees along the lines of a VIHE seminar. There could even be obligatory correspondence courses for living in a geographically remotse place yet aspiring for diksa within ISKCON. Not only would this help present the important issues in a sober format, it would also encourage an official period of introspectiveness that would help discourage decisions based on superficial romantic ideas or other similarly temporary infatuations. ys, sthita-dhi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 1999 Report Share Posted May 9, 1999 On 09 May 1999, Jatukarnya das wrote: > > And what if a qualified guru gets the foot down from the GBC, because some of the members of the GBC don't see that he / she is qualified? > He can still maintain his siksa relationships until Krsna arranges for an appropriate situation. > It could be enough that a group of devotees think that the GBC made the > wrong decision putting the foot down, and then another group develops, which would be called deviators, even if maybe most of the GBC members agree about the qualification of the prospective guru. > > I am not convinced that the present system is very good. Few points-- First, I don't believe the issue is one of questioning a devotees qualification, just offering an opportunity for the other Vaisnavas to weigh in on the subject before ISKCON makes an official decision. A diksa guru working within ISKCON also has a relationship with the rest of the society as a member in good standing. I anticipate that the GBC offers clear guidelines on the procedure. Second, any organizational plan will have it's shortcomings -- that is the nature of the material world. We try to find the best policy that does the most good for the most people based on guru/sadhu/sastra. With a little intelligence, one often can find a way to work within the frame work of an even a modestly englightened policy. Third, it is an important principle of Vaisnavism to seek the blessings of the other devotees before taking on an important service to Lord Krsna. Certainly seeking the blessings of one's godbrothers is not out of line with Vaisnava ettiquette, especially in a service as important as giving shelter to younger devotees. And finally, the guru/disciple relationship is not an exclusive franchise of any particular institution. But if one wishes to offer diksa initiation as a member of ISKCON in good standing, than this minimunal procedure has been for recognition within our society. ys, Sthita-dhi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 1999 Report Share Posted May 9, 1999 On 09 May 1999, Jatukarnya das wrote: > > And what if a qualified guru gets the foot down from the GBC, because some of the members of the GBC don't see that he / she is qualified? > He can still maintain his siksa relationships until Krsna arranges for an appropriate situation. > It could be enough that a group of devotees think that the GBC made the > wrong decision putting the foot down, and then another group develops, which would be called deviators, even if maybe most of the GBC members agree about the qualification of the prospective guru. > > I am not convinced that the present system is very good. Few points-- First, I don't believe the issue is one of questioning a devotees qualification, just offering an opportunity for the other Vaisnavas to weigh in on the subject before ISKCON makes an official decision. A diksa guru working within ISKCON also has a relationship with the rest of the society as a member in good standing. I anticipate that the GBC offers clear guidelines on the procedure. Second, any organizational plan will have it's shortcomings -- that is the nature of the material world. We try to find the best policy that does the most good for the most people based on guru/sadhu/sastra. With a little intelligence, one often can find a way to work within the frame work of an even a modestly englightened policy. Third, it is an important principle of Vaisnavism to seek the blessings of the other devotees before taking on an important service to Lord Krsna. Certainly seeking the blessings of one's godbrothers is not out of line with Vaisnava ettiquette, especially in a service as important as giving shelter to younger devotees. And finally, the guru/disciple relationship is not an exclusive franchise of any particular institution. But if one wishes to offer diksa initiation as a member of ISKCON in good standing, than this minimunal procedure has been for recognition within our society. ys, Sthita-dhi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 1999 Report Share Posted May 10, 1999 > On 09 May 1999, Jatukarnya das wrote: > > > > > > I am sure that there actually was a difference between how secure > Curiously, simply claiming to have a maha-bhagavata guru wasn't enought to > save the vast majority of Srila Prabhupada's diksa disciples from > extensive devotional difficulty. Conversely, there are examples of > grand-disciples who have had two, three, sometimes more diksa gurus yet > have remained strong through out the ordeal. > > So there might be something much deeper to all this that joining an > official maha-bhagavata camp. Well you have to be sincere isn't it. I mean many of Prabhupadas disciples turned out to be rascals and left ISKCON for other camps etc. or worse. But if you are really sincere, despite getting cheated a few times, that will only build your character. If you are actualy a cheater in your own heart, then do you really ever actualy 'have' someone like Srila Prabhupada as your guru? Did he really accept rascals, even if it 'appeared' like he accepted them? Maybe he accepted whatever they could give for the mission, but will he come back for them? Sd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 1999 Report Share Posted May 10, 1999 > > > So there might be something much deeper to all this that joining an official > maha-bhagavata camp. > > ys, > > Sthita It's the sampradaya that is more important than the individual connection to the sampradaya. Guru is one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 1999 Report Share Posted May 10, 1999 > Few points-- > > First, I don't believe the issue is one of questioning a devotees > qualification, just offering an opportunity for the other Vaisnavas to > weigh in on the subject before ISKCON makes an official decision. A diksa > guru working within ISKCON also has a relationship with the rest of the > society as a member in good standing. I anticipate that the GBC offers > clear guidelines on the procedure. > > Second, any organizational plan will have it's shortcomings -- that is the > nature of the material world. We try to find the best policy that does the > most good for the most people based on guru/sadhu/sastra. With a little > intelligence, one often can find a way to work within the frame work of an > even a modestly englightened policy. > > Third, it is an important principle of Vaisnavism to seek the blessings of > the other devotees before taking on an important service to Lord Krsna. > Certainly seeking the blessings of one's godbrothers is not out of line > with Vaisnava ettiquette, especially in a service as important as giving > shelter to younger devotees. > > And finally, the guru/disciple relationship is not an exclusive franchise > of any particular institution. But if one wishes to offer diksa initiation > as a member of ISKCON in good standing, than this minimunal procedure has > been for recognition within our society. Points noted. Ys Jkd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.