Guest guest Posted May 5, 1999 Report Share Posted May 5, 1999 "COM: Hare Krsna dasi (Brunswick, Maine - USA)" wrote: > [Text 2289462 from COM] > > What does LOL mean? > > ys > hkdd Laugh Out Loud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 1999 Report Share Posted May 5, 1999 Here is a reference to a madyama adhikari being a spiritual master. TRANSLATION "When Parvata Muni saw the ecstatic loving symptoms of the hunter, he told Narada, ‘Certainly you are a touchstone.' PURPORT When a touchstone touches iron, it turns the iron to gold. Parvata Muni called Narada Muni a touchstone because by his touch the hunter, who was the lowest among men, became an elevated and perfect Vaisnava. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura said that the position of a Vaisnava can be tested by seeing how good a touchstone he is -- that is, by seeing how many Vaisnavas he has made during his life. A Vaisnava should be a touchstone so that he can convert others to Vaisnavism by his preaching, even though people may be fallen like the hunter. There are many so-called advanced devotees who sit in a secluded place for their personal benefit. They do not go out to preach and convert others into Vaisnavas, and therefore they certainly cannot be called sparsa-mani, advanced devotees. Kanistha-adhikari devotees cannot turn others into Vaisnavas, but a madhyama-adhikari Vaisnava can do so by preaching. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu advised His followers to increase the numbers of Vaisnavas. yare dekha, tare kaha ‘krsna'-upadesa amara ajnaya guru hana tara' ei desa (Cc. Madhya 7.128) It is Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's wish that everyone should become a Vaisnava and guru. Following the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His disciplic succession, one can become a spiritual master, for the process is very easy. One can go everywhere and anywhere to preach the instructions of Krsna. The Bhagavad-gita is Krsna's instructions; therefore the duty of every Vaisnava is to travel and preach the Bhagavad-gita, either in his country or a foreign country. This is the test of sparsa-mani, following in the footsteps of Narada Muni. Madhya 24.278 >>> Ref. VedaBase => Madhya 24.278 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 1999 Report Share Posted May 5, 1999 > Of course, every analogy breaks down at some point, but we can see that > occasionally Krsna sends an acarya along. Maybe the acarya would be like > the outlets? Not that every initiation that has ever happened in our line > has been done by an acarya, but they seem to come along often enough so > Krsna is still available some how or other. It seems like there is almost always an acarya around, which is very fortunate, and I am sure it is not by chance. > > True. I will always be greatful to him for that. But I have to admit > > that I do not feel that I made any advancement after taking initiation > > from him. > > >From that time, I slowly lost my inspiration for some reason. He did > > >give me > > a lot of the inspiration to take spiritual life very seriously, though, > > but I felt that most of that inspiration came before I became initiated. > > The Dark Night of the Soul by St John of the Cross may shed some light > on that if you feel comfortable with literature outside the movement. I have to admit that I do read litteratures outside the movement some times, and I don't think I would have a problem with reading the book you advice me to. Do you know how to get it? > It used to be preached that initially , Krsna gives you a taste , a > free sample of what spiritual life can be, but then you have to work for > it. Just like in marriage, first there is a honeymoon, then comes the > long years of sacrifice to raise a family. The way we feel about our > spirituality is not necessarily the best barometer of our actual progress. Makes sense. > But I hear you. Although initiated by Srila Prabhupada, I spent most of > my career under the management of Kirtanananda, and understand your > frustration. Thank you (a lot). > > Could be a good analogy, but what if he is wrong? What if I was > > initiated prematurely? I don't think I am the only one who feels like > > that... That is like a driving teacher who gives you the license before > > you learn to drive. Is that bona fide? > > You either pass the test or not. To work within the confines of the > analogy, your question might be rephrased, if I bribe an official to give > me a license without taking the test, is that bona fide? Or in > otherwords, was the alleged gurus offering me initiation due to my being > ready for it, or was he simply a professinal recitor of Bhagavatam who > was making his living doing some showbottle guru business? Frankly, I > don't think that with philosophy or logic you will ever get a real black > and white answer. It is ultimeately a question of your own consciousness. My own consciousness and conviction, I suppose. I just try to make it straight to myself, and that's a reason why I ask for my friends' opinions and understandings on this issue. > The following quote has nothing to do with this, but I was looking for > something else and stumbled on it so thought it might be amusing to post. A very interesting quote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 1999 Report Share Posted May 5, 1999 > > > One thing more. Think about that Harikesa Maharaja (former) > was named by Srila Prabhupada, along with 10 others, to carry > on with initiating disciples after Prabhupada' soon departure. > Thus your question "Was he ever bona fide" on that way > may just well turn into calling in question Prabhupada's > competency. Was Prabhupada in illusion about wether all > those "elevens" were uttama-adhikaris, or did he make a > deliberate blunder and violated sastric injunctions by > authorizing non-uttama adhikaris into the position of > initiating gurus in the line of Guru Parampara? Or > something else. > > ys mnd Personally, I think something else. I think he specifically named them as rittvik gurus as sort of a back hand way of saying that they shouldn't be diksa gurus, at least not as of that time. (Yes, that's right, I think that famous letter was not a general instruction for all time, but a very specific instruction for those very specific devotees). As we can see, 7 of the 11 aren't around anymore, so that is a high percentage call. Plus as we can see from another quote I posted, madhyamas can be gurus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 1999 Report Share Posted May 5, 1999 On 04 May 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote: > > Must be like a highlights film. Also, it is instructive to note that the list is a siksa disciplic succession and not diksa, as I believe I have been told. > > Isn't it also true that some of these acaryas are not exactly working under the jurisdiction of human earth time? .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 1999 Report Share Posted May 5, 1999 > > > The gurus are highly respected, and I am afraid that not all gurus took > their position only due to a service attitude to Prabhupada. There are many > benefits from being a guru in ISKCON, financially and comfort-wise. I see in > ISKCON many gurus who have a lot of strong material qualitifications, and > who undoubtedly have much more wealth and surrendered servants than what > they could have expected to have if they would be bosses somewhere in > material society. > > I don't suggest that to be the only reason why they accept the role as guru, > but I think it may be there for many. And in ISKCON, we find many people who > want to be humble and think nothing wrong about a guru. Thus the gurus can > easily abuse their position, and even if they fall down, it does not have to > mean that they have to leave their position, as long as they are not caught. > And none of their disciples would believe that the guru ever fell down, > unless it can be proven, and even then many hesitate as has been seen. Perhaps I am naive, but I don't think any of these gurus consciously set out to do what they became. I give to them that they were sincere at the onset, but power corrupts. That is inevitable law of material nature. When the guru is not seen as a brahman, a teacher, but starts to act as a ksatriya, an admistrator, taking power over devotees lives, that is a very dangerous situation. Because VAD was only started, this clear separation has never been made. That is another reason we need to finish implementing VAD. Then there is a check and balance. Guru as king has been a very unsuccessful experiment, so now we need to move on to another way of doing it. I would advise anyone thinking of initiation to look close at a guru and see, is he acting as teacher or administrator? Not what he says he is doing, but what he/she is actually doing. It is one thing running a small math, or school, but another when a larger community is involved. If we look at the 7 of 11 ( I feel like I'm going to a convenience store) who fell, I think that the common thread is they were were involved in managing men and money on a larger scale. Whether as vaisya or king, whatever, but as an interested party in the economic lives of their disciples, not as a disinterested mentor. Guru as king. Bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 1999 Report Share Posted May 5, 1999 "WWW: Sthita-dhi-muni (Dasa) SDG (Alachua FL - USA)" wrote: > [Text 2291769 from COM] > > On 04 May 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote: > > > > > > Must be like a highlights film. Also, it is instructive to note that the > list is a siksa disciplic succession and not diksa, as I believe I have been > told. > > > > > > Isn't it also true that some of these acaryas are not exactly working under > the jurisdiction of human earth time? I think Narada pretty much falls under that category. Just see the power of gourds! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 1999 Report Share Posted May 5, 1999 > Here is a reference to a madyama adhikari being a spiritual master. Thank you very much for the quote. I hate to be picky, but it does not say specifically that a madhyama-adhikari can be a spiritual master, at least I did not read that in the text. One can maybe say that it is stated indirectly, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 1999 Report Share Posted May 10, 1999 > And really I dont quite understand what in the world would be wrong in > having the association of wonderful pure hearted, Krsna Loving sadhus, to > help us all home. Wouldn't you give anything to have Srila Prabhupada > again, to massage his feet, and wait for his smile or chastisment? Even if > you can get that through prayer, or meditation, wouldnt it be great to > have a real unambiguous, effervescent, golden hearted prema bhakta, in our > midst? Isnt that worth aspiring for, as opposed to endless politics, > innuendo, cheating, self glorification etc? > > Anyway I think I am getting the impression that a few people wish I would > just shut up about this topic, and rather than loose valuable friends, I > will do just that. Me and my big mouth (well actualy fingers in this > case). I definately appreciate your inputs. They seems just as logical as any other inputs I have seen here. Ys Jkd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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