Initiation (?)

[Guest guest]

> >

> > As it is now, it is considered a great offence to question someone's

> > qualification as a guru. But what if people can see that a person is not

> > actually qualified? Must we always wait until the guy actually falls

> > before we discuss this? How many percent of all the gurus in ISKCON have

> > fallen down? Is it 50 %? More? Is this not something to be concerned

> > about?

>

> I also agree with "general opinion" that it is an offence to

> question someone's qualification as a guru -- from the side of

> someone who is uncalled for it, whose business is not of that

> kind.

 

I guess that what you are saying is that neophytes should give any guru the

benefit of doubt, even if he does not manifest what you believe to be

genuine spiritual advancement.

 

If I see an ISKCON guru engaged in something which I read in sastra is the

example of a materialistic guru, I do make my own conclusions about it, even

if it may be detrimental for my spiritual life.

 

If I believe that a guru clearly abuses his position, and I see that GBC has

been told about it, but does nothing substancial to stop this abuse, then I

lose faith in the GBC.

 

And if I see that the GBC is hesitating to take firm action against a guru

who I personally am convinced that has been directly or indirectly involved

in child abuse, I also lose faith in them.

 

> As far as your question "Must we always wait until the guy

> actually falls before we discuss this?", well, you can't

> have really such clear cut as you are implying it now.

 

I am not sure what you mean by that.

 

>Just

> think for a while in which moment you have introduced the

> expression "the guy" for your ex-guru. Was it before of

> after his fall? How many times you were ready to discuss and

> question his qualifications as a guru prior to his fall?

 

I did not specifially refer to him with my statement. Maybe "guy" was not

very proper to use, please excuse me for that.

 

I was not ready to discuss his qualifications before his fall, but that was

also because that was the trend. Everyone would have looked at me as a

maha-offender if I would even question one decision, what to speak of his

qualification as a guru. I am not sure whether it is healthy for disciples

to have so blind faith as we did, and that is one reason why I take it up.

Faith in guru should be based on the guru's real qualifications, not just

the qualifications which the disciples think that he has. I know this may

sound a bit strange, and I don't know how to solve it, but I think it

somehow needs to be addressed.

 

> Otherwise, I don't think it's 50%. Perhaps much less.

 

Maybe you are right, but I am not so sure. A lot of gurus fell down. And 7

of the original 11.

 

> One thing more. Think about that Harikesa Maharaja (former)

> was named by Srila Prabhupada, along with 10 others, to carry

> on with initiating disciples after Prabhupada' soon departure.

> Thus your question "Was he ever bona fide" on that way

> may just well turn into calling in question Prabhupada's

> competency. Was Prabhupada in illusion about wether all

> those "elevens" were uttama-adhikaris, or did he make a

> deliberate blunder and violated sastric injunctions by

> authorizing non-uttama adhikaris into the position of

> initiating gurus in the line of Guru Parampara? Or

> something else.

 

I know that this is another very sensitive issue, but since I am trying to

pursue the truth, I hope I will be forgiven.

 

I know that there are many who think that these 11 were never actually

authorized to initiate by Srila Prabhupada, but that they drew that

conclusion themseves. Srila Prabhupada said that he wanted a lot of his

disciples to become gurus, but since it is written many places in Srila

Prabhupada's books what should be the qualification of a guru, it can be

questioned whether it is obvious whether he wanted the "original 11" to

initiate own disciples immideately after his departure or not.

 

I am no authority on this, and I wonder what others know about it. Maybe I

get killed for even saying such a thing, but I would like to get this clear,

if it is possible.

 

Ys

Jkd