Initiation (?)

[Guest guest]

> On 11 May 1999, Samba das wrote:

>

> > The principle is that it is the

> > personal seva, and the pleasing of the sadhu, which if the sadhu

> > desires, may result in the sisya getting mercy, that mercy is the

> > spiritual advancement.

>

>

> You keep coming back to this same concept, Prabhu. But, as I have asked

> many times previously and have yet to receive an answer, if "personal

> seva" to the sadhu/spiritual master is the only means of true advancement

> what about all of Srila Prabhupada's disciples, most of whom never had the

> opportunity to "personally/bodily/physically/directly" serve him? Do we

> now have to seek out another guru?

 

There is no doubt that anyone who received diksa from Srila Prabhupada, is

certainly connected to the parampara, but he may need to take siksa from

another utama adhikary who can guide them. For instance Bhaktarupa Prabhu,

your godbrother, lives in Orrisa, and was fully happy to accept Siksa from

HH Gour Govinda Swami. He was satisified that he was a pure devotee, and

found his association brought him closer to Prabhupada, in much the same way

that Prabhupada appreciated Kesava Maharaja, when he forced Prabhupada to

take Sanyas.

 

Someone recently gave an interesting analogy. If your father was a driving

instructor, but he died while you were young, you will have to approach

another person to teach you driving. Of course, someone initiated by Srila

Prabhupada, is certainly well connected to the parampara, but if they really

have burning questions, and if in their heart they realise they did not yet

reach the highest perfection then it would seem that they would need to seek

out a Siksa Guru, probably a Godbrother.

 

> > Reading alone can not have the same result, unless the result

> > of the reading ends in such action.

>

> I feel that if one is reading Srila Prabhupada's books and chanting the

> Holy Names of the Lord everything will resolve satisfactorily, in time.

> Trying to expedite an individuals spiritual development according to some

> contrived time schedule ("You should be MORE advanced, Prabhu") is the

> cause of zonal-acarya-ism, bogus sannyasis, caste systems and downright

> unfriendliness.

 

I agree that no one can advance according to any externaly imposed

timetable. But the sastra does say you need that kind of adavanced

association, that is siddhanta. I have not read anywhere something that

supports that everything will resolve, without getting actual mercy.

 

The example given is of Dhruva Maharaja, he was told by his mother to go to

the forest and to find Narayana. Dhruva went to the forest, and performed

severe austerities, with great determination. Because of this determination

Krsna sent his pure devotee, Narada Muni, who gave Dhruva instructions on

how to acheive the Lords darshan. By Narada Muni's mercy, Dhruva was then

able to acheive the Lords darshan.

 

> > > "...If they will simply take to reading this transcendental literature

> > > we are presenting, the same reading capacity will elevate them to the

> > > highest perfection of spiritual life." (SPL to Harer Nama)

> >

> > But it will only elevate them to the highest perfection of spiritual

> > life if they ACT upon the instructions found therein.

>

>

> No offense, Samba Prabhu, but Srila Prabhupada did not see the need to

> append this, your above statement, to the end of his sentence quoted

> above. By reading Srila Prabhupada's books and chanting the Holy Names of

> the Lord that IS ACTING upon the instructions and the concomitant

> advancement will be realized, again, in time.

 

Of course, but there are more instructions than that one. If he had to state

averything about spiritual life in one long run-on sentence or one huge

paragraph, we would run out of breath. Spritual life is vast. I know you say

it is simple, and it is if you follow all of the rules, but people are

crooked, so they need instruction. The books are full of instructions. Some

don't require any interpretation, and others do. It is not that there is NO

benefit from reading his books but if we find we ignore instructions that

seem complicated (like finding a book bhagavat), and accept only the easy

instructions, we might miss out.

 

He may not say that you have to surrender to a person bhagavat, at the end

of that perticular line, but he does say it elsewhhere in the Bhagavatam and

other books. He does say many times that you have to find a pure devotee.

 

> Srila Prabhupada is NOT GONE. We CAN surrender to him now just as we did

> when he was here "physically".

 

You can use that argument to also surrender to Bhaktivinoda, Rupa Goswami

etc, as they are also 'not gone'.

 

Everyone surrendered to Srila Prabhupada

> and made advancement, when he was "here" yet hardly anyone had his

> "personal" association. How did that occur??????????? And are they not

> making advancement currently without his "personal/bodily"

> service/association?

 

How do you know they surrendered? I think many of them didn't surrender, not

completely, but to degrees, some a lot more, some a lot less. Sometimes we

read amusing anecdotes in some devotees memoirs about times when Prabhupada

forced them to surrender. But how long did that 'forced' surrender last? How

many argued, and got Prabhupada to compromise, maybe he gave them his

'vanchana' (cheating). How do you know they made spiritual advancement, and

not simply Sukriti? How does one define how much spiritual advancement one

has made?

 

> > What we should do (I feel) is pray for the Lord to manifest a pure

> > devotee to help. Prabhupada instructs us in his books, everywhere, to

> > approach a spiritual master, and render service unto him.

>

>

> And if he came and was as busy as Srila Prabhupada was when he was "here"

> and thousands of disciples would not be able to

> "personally/bodily/directly" serve this pure devotee, how do they make

> advancement. Or is this all really a physical thing? That a pure devotee

> just has to be walking on the Earth and everyone is automatically

> personally serving him whether they ever speak to him or not?

 

He only has to give one order to each disciple, and if they are really

sincere they will get his mercy. Prabhupada received an order, and he

carried it out perfectly. If a person is sincere the purport of all

religious scriptures can manifest in his heart, if he gets the mercy of a

pure guru. It's like once one has that connection, all reading he does will

be automaticaly understood properly, because he has got the mercy by

surrendering to his guru.

 

It is not that a person has to spend his entire life sitting and hearing in

front of his guru. If he surrenders to the order of his guru, completely,

the guru can transmit all understanding into that disciples heart. The

amazing thing is that it is all done by mercy, and NOT by our endeavour.

Actual anyone who ACTUALY surrenders to his guru is with his guru always.

There is never any seperation, this is an esoteric thing. Once one has the

contact, and makes the surrender, the connection is made.

 

We understand that if we want to go back to godhead Krsna will supply all we

need to do that. So a pure devotee can deliver everyone, thousands of them,

provided they all WANT to go back. Not just a 'wouldn't it be nice to go

back home prabhu' but more of a HELP ME PLEASE HELP ME GET OUT OF HERE!

 

However if those thousand actualy want some name and fame, some position,

some comfort, some recognition, they wont get mercy. Look how many of

Prabhupadas disciples left. You yourself admitted many times that you had

some material contaminations. So out of those thousands that Prabhupada was

surrounded by, how many were actualy ready to surrender?

 

Sd