Initiation (?)

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> >

> > > Thus you are completely eliminating out of picture siksa and

> > > siksa gurus. I don't know what sastric quotes are required

> > > to prove that one may be nevertheless connected to Krsna

> > > inspite of fall down of the initiating guru.

> >

> > Did I not say that I think you are right about that?

>

> Sorry. I thought that unless you get the sastric quote

> as an exact proof, you won't discuss it further.

> I misunderstood, and tried to explain why I can't supply

> so easily such proof for you.

 

I have tried to show through several of my texts lately that the reason why

I want to discuss these things is not to win a discussion, it is to start to

find out the truth. To defeat me in such a discussion may not be very

difficult, because I don't know so much about it. So please understand that

I am open for this topic, but still sceptical due to having (at least from

my point-of-view) burned my fingers. This may mean that I will be sceptical

even if someone comes up with the right answer to my questions. But I am

still apprecative, because after digesting it for some time, I may see

things more clearly.

 

> > > By reading what Srila Prabhupada said on initiation, one can

> > > find that Prabhupada speaks about initiation as the moment

> > > of transformation of a person into spiritual realm. However

> > > the further maintenance of such position lays not anymore on

> > > initiation itself, but on further _practice_.

> >

> > Sure! Did I say something different?

>

> The question that you asked implied "something different."

> Your question placed the disciple's spiritual well-being (the

> connection with Krsna) on initiating guru's continuos well-being. This was

> still the remaining reflection of the same comment on that question of

> yours.

 

I still believe that it may be difficult for a lot of devotees to go on for

the rest of their life advancing spiritually without having a fully

qualified and physically manifested guru (diksa or siksa). And I am

convinced that "everyone" would benefit from such a situation, where they

get siksa from advanced devotees.

 

But you have convinced me that it may be possible to continue to advance

also in the circumstance which many are in, namely that their diksa guru has

left. I still don't think this to be a very "beneficial" situation to be in,

but it is better than to whimsically accept another guru.

 

> > > > I question whether instructions given by someone who is not a

> > > > maha-bhagavata can ever bring you to become a maha-bhagavata.

> > >

>

> > Do you think that was a stupid question? Maybe I am blind, but I cannot

> > understand why that is stupid.

>

> I don't think it's stupid. I give the example of Bivamangala Thakura

> accepting the instruction from a prostitute and thus becoming perfected.

 

Aha, I was a bit slow there. Sorry.

 

> For him it did not matter that she was not maha-bhagavata. He took the

> instruction into the heart.

 

Yes, but he got good instructions before he got attatched to the prostitute,

is it not? (I am sorry to say that I am not sure about all the details of

the story). So that meant that he was spiritually "re-awakened", and he took

it that Krishna was speaking through her.

 

> That was my original point, if I would take

> seriously just a portion of the good instruction received from "HKS" I

> would be a pure devotee so far. You questioned wether that was possible,

> and I gave the example that, yes, it's quite possible. Gold is gold,

> wether in the authorized gold-shop, or with "dealers" on the street. Just

> that for those who are not sure about what's gold, then better to be lucky

> to enter an

> authorized gold-shop.

 

I have heard so many things in different lectures and read som many things

in Srila Prabhupada's books, but one thing which somehow is stuck in my

consciousness is that the only was to get out of the material world is

through the mercy of a pure devotee. Am I completely off having this idea?

 

> > You may be right. But without following Prabhupada and / or another pure

> > devotee, we cannot get there, isn't it? We need the mercy of someone who

> > already is a pure devotee to become a pure devotee, isn't it?

>

> In the quote that I was providing on that not only uttama-adhikari can

> become a guru, Srila Prabhupada states:

>

> "...and it should be understood that they cannot advance very

> well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient

> guidance"

>

> So, it is not that "they cannot". Just, not very well. Their

> road may be more "bumpy" than wide and straight "Autobahn"

 

In this quote it says "they cannot". Anyway, the point is obviously that

Prabhupada does not really recommend such a solution, isn't it?

 

> But what is the "mercy of a pure devotee to become pure devotee"

> exactly that you are referring on? How does it work?

 

The idea is that if you are swimming around in material nescience, you

cannot get out of it without getting help from a person who is already

sitting in a boat who can drag you out. If you meet someone who is himself

stuck in the ocean, who tells you about the boat or the shore, maybe he can

help you to figure out where to look for the boat, but he cannot pick you up

himself before he is safe. Something like that, ok?

 

Ys

Jkd