Initiation (?)

[Guest guest]

> As far as our different reading the Bhagavatam, I actually do

> not know how do you read it, we did not discuss it so far really, so I

> can't for sure say wether differences between our readings are so drastic.

> I would rather expect that we may differ in

> some points.

 

Actualy I was not specificaly talking about you and me, I was talking about,

many others in ISKCON who never seem to be able to agree on what Prabhupada

wants us to do. (see esp. ritviks)

 

> Wel'll never resolve it all. Even while Srila Prabhupada was

> present, when he was himself explaining his own purports, still

> there was not resolved all.

 

That is a fact.

 

> But you have formed now your question on the way (Are you sure we don't

> need help...?") that it would be unreasonable from me to say "No".

> However, our dissagriment is not in wether we would need help or not (the

> help is always wellcome). It is that you consider Srila Prabhupada's books

> to be the materilistic vibration (as oposed to sabdha-brahma) unless

> heared from an another maha-bhagavata, another acarya.

 

No I dont consider Srila Prabhupadads books as materialistic vibration AT

ALL. It is the principle, and that is something that is unchanging, whether

spoken about this person or that. To me it seems obvious that you can

interchange in that harmonist article, Bhaktivinoda with Prabhupada, as the

principle he talks about is that of *serving* a bhagavat bhakta, as opposed

to *exclusive* empirical study of his works. The principle is that it is the

personal seva, and the pleasing of the sadhu, which if the sadhu desires,

may result in the sisya getting mercy, that mercy is the spiritual

advancement. Reading alone can not have the same result, unless the result

of the reading ends in such action. That is the point Bhaktisidhhanta is

making.

 

> That what Srila Bhaktisiddhanta speciffically points out are

> _Thakur's works_. Not Srila Prabhupada's works. But you have

> drown out _your_ conclusions (without any help of any maha-

> bhagavata) that it is the case with Srila Prabhupada's books

> aslo. Thus it is not Bhaktisiddhanta's argument anymore, but

> Samba's.

 

I just answered that one above.

 

 

> How much one can go till by simply reading Prabhupada's books,

> here is what Srila Prabhupada says about his own books:

>

> "Now people are reading all kind of nonsense books and thus their reading

> capacity is helping to pave their way through the circles of birth and

> death. If they will simply take to reading this transcendental literature

> we are presenting, the same reading

> capacity will elevate them to the highest perfection of spiritual life."

> (SPL to Harer Nama)

 

But it will only elevate them to the highest perfection of spiritual life if

they ACT upon the instructions found therein. There are many scholars who

*know* many many scriptures, and can quote them till they drop, and even

defeat mayavada philosophers. But because they dont seek out a guru and

surrender, they dont get anywhere.

 

> Srila Prabhupada never told us that we got to secure the guidance of an

> another acarya in order to understand the meaning of his message.

 

Srila Prabhupada says everywhere, that you have to surrender to a pure

devotee to make advancement in spirtual life. Its the basic truth, found in

all revealed scriptures. It is not his message, it is the message of all

gurus, of the parampara, they all say the same thing.

 

I am not

> the supporter of some "cutting&pasting"

> application of the words of previous acaryas, without taking

> in consideration just any other specifics. Like, for example,

> by simply taking these words of Bhaktisiddhanta, your

> ("Bhaktisiddhanta's") argument can be completed with -- Narayana

> Maharaja. He is an acarya, isn't he? Bhakisiddhanta says to secure an

> acarya for explanation [of Prabhupada's works]. So let's go to an acarya

> [Narayana Maharaja].

 

This is where it is important to apply proper etiquette. I dont know

anything about Narayana Maharaja nowadays. I did meet him a few times in the

early 90's, and then he was considered in ISKCON to be a very elevated

sadhu, and I was certainly very impressed with him. Now there is so much

propaganda, and I wonder if we are using NATO's spin doctors. If the

propaganda is true, then watch out, I don't know.

 

There was a lot of propaganda about HH. Gour Govinda Swami. Interestingly a

lot of it came from Harikesa. Actualy it seems that GGS's disciples actualy

caught HKM lying about propaganda he had spread about GGS, I think they have

it on tape (I am not sure). Maybe that was the final straw in his spiritual

falldown.

 

There has been so much false propaganda, so much deceit, that I question

practicaly everything I hear nowadays, and automaticaly challenge all

assumptions.

 

But my point (as I keep saying) is not to look outside. IN the mission of

Srila Prabhupada, we are his (ISKCON's) loyal followers, we dont go outside.

What we should do (I feel) is pray for the Lord to manifest a pure devotee

to help. Prabhupada instructs us in his books, everywhere, to approach a

spiritual master, and render service unto him. So we have to look for a real

and genuine spiritual master who can take us home. If some individual wants

to settle for a Kanistha, or a Madhyama, its up to them, but if they want an

Uttama Adhikari spiritual master, and they cant find one in our society,

then there is only one thing to do, and that is pray with all their heart,

and if they are really sincere, Lord Krsna will manifest a guru for them. He

says he will do it, and he will. They might already be existing here in

ISKCON, we are just not looking.

 

Why would you be arguing with me, if it was not the case that no one is

telling us to seek an Uttama Adhikary. This whole issue has arisen here

because a prominent guru who everyone thought was a pure devotee (well not

everyone) has fallen. Now many are fried, and faith in ISKCON gurus is even

more frayed. But that does not mean that pure devotees cannot be got, if you

REALY want them.

 

Sd