Guest guest Posted May 21, 1999 Report Share Posted May 21, 1999 On 20 May 1999, Gunamani dd wrote: > > Everyone would be godbrother and > > godsister like ISKCON used to be. What's so bad about that? > We would be orphans. > y.s. Gm. d.d. I have not felt like an orphan since Srila Prabhupada "left" Mataji. Nor have my friends/godbrothers/sisters. We still feel Srila Prabhupada is our spiritual father just as much as when he was here. Sorry you feel that way. yfs, Jd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 1999 Report Share Posted May 21, 1999 On 20 May 1999, Mahanidhi das wrote: > > "Uttama-adhikari pure devotees on this side of the line, the rest > of the world on the other!" I guess I can get bothered by your endless sarcasm too. Of what constructive use is it? Please make your point if you have one so that someone else might be able to respond intelligently, or at least try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 1999 Report Share Posted May 21, 1999 On 20 May 1999, Mahanidhi das wrote: > > "Uttama-adhikari pure devotees on this side of the line, the rest > of the world on the other!" I guess I can get bothered by your endless sarcasm too. Of what constructive use is it? Please make your point if you have one so that someone else might be able to respond intelligently, or at least try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 1999 Report Share Posted May 21, 1999 On 20 May 1999, Hare Krsna dasi wrote: > I am wary of analyses which tend to blame the victim. Isn't it possible that > in > some cases, the difficulty was not due simply to the weak-heartedness and > insinserity of the disciple, but due to the unavoidable shortcomings of the > emergency system which had to be put in place? I think it was more likely that most of Srila Prabhupada's disciples listened to his instructions in this regard and were quite satisfied. He had that effect on many of us: "The service of the spiritual master is essential. If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual master's instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple..." CC Adi 1.35 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 1999 Report Share Posted May 21, 1999 On 20 May 1999, Hare Krsna dasi wrote: > I am wary of analyses which tend to blame the victim. Isn't it possible that > in > some cases, the difficulty was not due simply to the weak-heartedness and > insinserity of the disciple, but due to the unavoidable shortcomings of the > emergency system which had to be put in place? I think it was more likely that most of Srila Prabhupada's disciples listened to his instructions in this regard and were quite satisfied. He had that effect on many of us: "The service of the spiritual master is essential. If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual master's instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple..." CC Adi 1.35 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 1999 Report Share Posted May 21, 1999 On 20 May 1999, Hare Krsna dasi wrote: > > I agree. Personal training. Many varna gurus. Grihastas mostly. The siksa > > guru, while it would be nice, does not have to bodily know each disciple. > > Srila Prabhupada is the example. The Goswamis, Mahajanas are also our siksa > > gurus - we do not know them personally. > Well.... I think we need to slow down the discussion at this point and note > that > "varna guru" is a brand new term. This is not a term established by Srila > Prabhupada. Please. I am not trying to write scripture here. It is purely Janesvara dasa's concoction. OK? > The terms that he used are: siksa guru and diksa guru And, patha-pradarsaka-guru, vartma-pradarsaka-guru, caitya guru. Let's not be so sure of ourselves. > You have already established, and everyone seems to agree, that the siksa guru > does not have to be physically present when the disciple takes his or her > instruction. > However, everyone who is not a rtvik -- including the members of the GBC -- is > convinced that the diksa guru must be physically present on earth when the > disciple is initiated. I am not a ritvik (I am a ksatriya) and I do not believe that the diksa guru must be "physically present on EARTH" to initiate a disciple. "Diksa actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental knowledge by which he becomes freed from all material contamination." CC Mad 4.111 As you stated above, "everyone seems to agree, that the siksa guru does not have to be physically present when the disciple takes his or her instruction". If diksa actually means what Srila Prabhupada stated above why does there have to be "physical" presence for the same kind of instruction given in siksa which does not require physical presence? And, "The service of the spiritual master is essential. If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual master's instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple..." CC Adi 1.35 I believe that is how Srila Prabhupada's disciples were given diksa in most cases. > Therefore, since there is no such term as "varna guru" > it > seems to me that the diksa guru should be the one who gives the disciple his > varna > guidance -- since he is physically present at the beginning of the disciples > devotional career. This is a different subject than "ritvik/diksa" but, naturally, I disagree. Pancharatna Prabhu also has a nice perspective on this which he asked me to share with the conference. Pancharatna Prabhu wrote: > Now to your other comments. I am skipping ahead to this point: > > > Janesvara wrote: > > I have no problem with my Godbrothers becoming gurus. Honest! I have > > complete confidence that Srila Prabhupada's books, service and parampara > > program are fully capable of developing pure devotees and gurus. When - > > is the question. > > And what kind? My own belief is that, just like their are so many > varieties within the definistions of "catur varna", so there are so many > varieties of gurus. The problems come, as in varnashram, when someone who > is qualified for one position assumes a different position. This is also my feeling. We need varna gurus to step up to Srila Prabhupada's instructions given in his morning walks conversations in Vrindavana '74. If we could only give it a try! > > It will take time, but I am confident that if we sincerely try to > implement the principles of varnashram, through extensive training and > step by step development we will find slutions to our present internal > conflicts as well as optimum opportunities for all aspects of devotional > service, including acceptance of a guru and taking intitiation. Yes putting the horse before the cart, finally! > > I must apologize for dropping out of the varnashram conference. I just > couldn't keep up with it. > > I am hoping to step back in but I would like to limit my involvement to a > smaller group, so that the volume of email is more manageable. > > Perhaps you could share the relevent portions of this text with others on > the varnashram conference who would be interested. > > Your servant, > Pancaratna das > Devotional career means serving Krsna by one's work. The diksa guru should be > expected to tell his or her disciple which kind of work is most suitable for > that > person to serve Krsna with. This sounds more commnonly like a siksa guru to me. Arjuna's "varna", if you will allow, guru was Dronacarya. He was not Arjuna's diksa or siksa guru in spiritual science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 1999 Report Share Posted May 21, 1999 On 20 May 1999, Hare Krsna dasi wrote: > > I agree. Personal training. Many varna gurus. Grihastas mostly. The siksa > > guru, while it would be nice, does not have to bodily know each disciple. > > Srila Prabhupada is the example. The Goswamis, Mahajanas are also our siksa > > gurus - we do not know them personally. > Well.... I think we need to slow down the discussion at this point and note > that > "varna guru" is a brand new term. This is not a term established by Srila > Prabhupada. Please. I am not trying to write scripture here. It is purely Janesvara dasa's concoction. OK? > The terms that he used are: siksa guru and diksa guru And, patha-pradarsaka-guru, vartma-pradarsaka-guru, caitya guru. Let's not be so sure of ourselves. > You have already established, and everyone seems to agree, that the siksa guru > does not have to be physically present when the disciple takes his or her > instruction. > However, everyone who is not a rtvik -- including the members of the GBC -- is > convinced that the diksa guru must be physically present on earth when the > disciple is initiated. I am not a ritvik (I am a ksatriya) and I do not believe that the diksa guru must be "physically present on EARTH" to initiate a disciple. "Diksa actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental knowledge by which he becomes freed from all material contamination." CC Mad 4.111 As you stated above, "everyone seems to agree, that the siksa guru does not have to be physically present when the disciple takes his or her instruction". If diksa actually means what Srila Prabhupada stated above why does there have to be "physical" presence for the same kind of instruction given in siksa which does not require physical presence? And, "The service of the spiritual master is essential. If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual master's instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple..." CC Adi 1.35 I believe that is how Srila Prabhupada's disciples were given diksa in most cases. > Therefore, since there is no such term as "varna guru" > it > seems to me that the diksa guru should be the one who gives the disciple his > varna > guidance -- since he is physically present at the beginning of the disciples > devotional career. This is a different subject than "ritvik/diksa" but, naturally, I disagree. Pancharatna Prabhu also has a nice perspective on this which he asked me to share with the conference. Pancharatna Prabhu wrote: > Now to your other comments. I am skipping ahead to this point: > > > Janesvara wrote: > > I have no problem with my Godbrothers becoming gurus. Honest! I have > > complete confidence that Srila Prabhupada's books, service and parampara > > program are fully capable of developing pure devotees and gurus. When - > > is the question. > > And what kind? My own belief is that, just like their are so many > varieties within the definistions of "catur varna", so there are so many > varieties of gurus. The problems come, as in varnashram, when someone who > is qualified for one position assumes a different position. This is also my feeling. We need varna gurus to step up to Srila Prabhupada's instructions given in his morning walks conversations in Vrindavana '74. If we could only give it a try! > > It will take time, but I am confident that if we sincerely try to > implement the principles of varnashram, through extensive training and > step by step development we will find slutions to our present internal > conflicts as well as optimum opportunities for all aspects of devotional > service, including acceptance of a guru and taking intitiation. Yes putting the horse before the cart, finally! > > I must apologize for dropping out of the varnashram conference. I just > couldn't keep up with it. > > I am hoping to step back in but I would like to limit my involvement to a > smaller group, so that the volume of email is more manageable. > > Perhaps you could share the relevent portions of this text with others on > the varnashram conference who would be interested. > > Your servant, > Pancaratna das > Devotional career means serving Krsna by one's work. The diksa guru should be > expected to tell his or her disciple which kind of work is most suitable for > that > person to serve Krsna with. This sounds more commnonly like a siksa guru to me. Arjuna's "varna", if you will allow, guru was Dronacarya. He was not Arjuna's diksa or siksa guru in spiritual science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 1999 Report Share Posted May 21, 1999 > I am wary of analyses which tend to blame the victim. Isn't it possible > that in some cases, the difficulty was not due simply to the > weak-heartedness and insinserity of the disciple, but due to the > unavoidable shortcomings of the emergency system which had to be put in > place? Well one could surmise that that might have been the case. But surely if a person really desired with all their heart, and were desperate to get pure instruction from a pure devotee, and follow it to the end, the Lord would have facilitated them at that time? How many devotees, got into serious maya after Srila Prabhupada left? If they did, were they not really ready to actualy follow the order of Srila Prabhupada? But that does not disqualify them from spiritual life. If they actualy got an order it can still be carried out. If not when they finaly realise that this procrastinating in the material world, has to end, and they actualy get serious to do whatever it takes to get out, ie surrendering to a pure devotee. Krsna WILL send a pure devotee. He will do that for anyone who actualy cries to him like a baby to save them. So call it an emergency or whatever. Srila Prabhupada knew who was serious and who was not. The Lord dictated to him personaly. As you have pointed out, the guru is supposed to know the psyco physical nature of the disciple, because he knows the supersoul in everyone. But he also knows that all is not lost. People who he granted initiation got his great mercy, it was up to them to excell in that mercy. If they did not, then at least they started their progress, and the Lord will certainly fulfil their desires. YS Sd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 1999 Report Share Posted May 21, 1999 > I am wary of analyses which tend to blame the victim. Isn't it possible > that in some cases, the difficulty was not due simply to the > weak-heartedness and insinserity of the disciple, but due to the > unavoidable shortcomings of the emergency system which had to be put in > place? Well one could surmise that that might have been the case. But surely if a person really desired with all their heart, and were desperate to get pure instruction from a pure devotee, and follow it to the end, the Lord would have facilitated them at that time? How many devotees, got into serious maya after Srila Prabhupada left? If they did, were they not really ready to actualy follow the order of Srila Prabhupada? But that does not disqualify them from spiritual life. If they actualy got an order it can still be carried out. If not when they finaly realise that this procrastinating in the material world, has to end, and they actualy get serious to do whatever it takes to get out, ie surrendering to a pure devotee. Krsna WILL send a pure devotee. He will do that for anyone who actualy cries to him like a baby to save them. So call it an emergency or whatever. Srila Prabhupada knew who was serious and who was not. The Lord dictated to him personaly. As you have pointed out, the guru is supposed to know the psyco physical nature of the disciple, because he knows the supersoul in everyone. But he also knows that all is not lost. People who he granted initiation got his great mercy, it was up to them to excell in that mercy. If they did not, then at least they started their progress, and the Lord will certainly fulfil their desires. YS Sd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 1999 Report Share Posted May 21, 1999 > Is this the reason for ISKCON's leaders concentrating only on those > "emergency" things that Srila Prabhupada emphasized like book publication > and distribution while neglecting the much broader Vedic institution of > Daiva Varnasrama-dharma? Is ISKCON becoming an apa-sampradaya as a result > of following this course? It sounds logical. I wouldnt have thought that those particular aspects would make ISKCON apasampradayic as such, but certainly for disciples to not follow the order of their guru is an offence, but then there is still time. I would have thought though that continuing a ritvik system might be. > > > Think about it. Why establish a varnasrama community where you have > > independant Brahmins, whose position it is to maintain dharma, ensure > > siddhanta is known and generaly be available as impartial guides, and > > advisors, if it is all available in Srila Prabhupadas books exclusively. > > > Oh, I'm sorry I should have read further. You're saying that to > exclusively rely upon Srila Prabhupada's books as instruction is > apa-sampradayic? Because we want to make his books the common standard? > His books, sastra in English and other languages is only an "emergency" to > become non-essential at some date? > > I would certainly disagree with this, IF that is what you are saying. I'm > sorry if a misunderstood it. Bo I am not saying that at all. I was refering to other arguments which appear to favour empiric study of his books, over seeking out, praying for, and surrendering to impartial pure devotees. > I > > just dont buy the argument that we dont need help. That Srila Prabhupada > > has given us all the help already, and that we dont need pure > > unmotivated people to help us understand it. > > > I think there are two things you are talking about here: 1. Pure > transcendental instructions and, 2. varnasrama-dharma. Srila Prabhupada > said there was only one thing left "unfinished" and it was the later of > these. Yes I am talking about those two things. Of course to get technical, Srila Prabhupada didnt actualy finish the Srimad Bhagavatam. But yes he did basicaly finish enough for us to use for the next ten thousand years. Now all we have to do, instead of speculating, or arguing about his texts, we just need to secure another one of those pure devotees, to clear up any misunderstandings we may have. > He did give us quite a bit of good instruction for starting > varnasrama-dharma but there is plenty left for us to do on our own. This > does not require high, transcendental, pure unmotivated people to > implement it. It requires simple practical common sense and hard work. I agree completely. The point I am trying to make is that when one has reached the mode of goodness, through following the rules and regulations etc of varnasrama dharma, and once he is ready to dive deeply into the *mysteries* of spiritual life, THEN he will need help from a fully pure transcendentalist. After all our Philosophy is based on personalism, and it would make sense to me to have a living personal guide, to take our hands, point out the weeds that we thought were devotional creeper, and guide us through that jungle of deceptive weeds, back home. > First, of course, the leaders, if they are going to be involved in this > effort, have to admit that they NEED to implement VAD into the society and > recognize its existence and value. Pretentions alone have stopped that > effort. They have failed to do this for more than 25 years. Isn't it > pretty obvious what their intentions have been? They have concocted other > social management paradigms loosely based upon their mish-mash of Vedic > culture and came up with....present day ISKCON! Not a success story. Definatetly agreed. > > Pure, unmotivated people are always welcome. They are not a ready > commodity, obviously. Perhaps that's why Srila Prabhupada so strongly > advised his disciples to implement varnasrama-dharma: Could well be. We need to come to the mode of goodness, before we can really begin spiritual life. > > > "Ultimately the aim of varnasrama-dharma is to turn a crude man into a > pure devotee of the Lord, or a Vaisnava." SB 1.2.2 > > Room Conversation Mayapur, February 14, 1977 > "Prabhupada: Everywhere, wherever, Mayapura or anywhere. Question is that > here it is clearly said, sve sve karmany abhiratah. Brahmana has his duty, > ksatriya has his duty, vaisya has his duty, sudra has his duty. And if he > performs his duty nicely, then he also becomes perfect. So why > artificially he should be called a brahmana? Let them do, according to > sastra, the work of sudra, or vaisya. He'll get the perfect. Perfection is > not checked. But why artificially he should be made a brahmana or he > should be made a sannyasi and fall down and become a ludicrous? That is > the point. Better let him live in his position and become perfect. That's > good. That looks very nice. And that is possible. That is possible." > > With all due respect, current ISKCON mentality is about as far from the > above scenario as anyone could imagine. How are we going to develop "pure, > unmotivated" people? Just sit back and "pray" for them to come? God helps > those who help themselves. I agree, the field is full of weeds right now, and needs serious cultivation. For the first time in ages we are in complete agreement prabhu. You are so right. Praying is not something one can do casualy. It requires the earnestness that springs from dissatisfaction, where one feels that all is hopeless. Both are required, practical varnasrama development, and the praying for mercy. if both are there commitment is shown, and the Lord will surely reciprocate. YS Sd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 1999 Report Share Posted May 21, 1999 > Is this the reason for ISKCON's leaders concentrating only on those > "emergency" things that Srila Prabhupada emphasized like book publication > and distribution while neglecting the much broader Vedic institution of > Daiva Varnasrama-dharma? Is ISKCON becoming an apa-sampradaya as a result > of following this course? It sounds logical. I wouldnt have thought that those particular aspects would make ISKCON apasampradayic as such, but certainly for disciples to not follow the order of their guru is an offence, but then there is still time. I would have thought though that continuing a ritvik system might be. > > > Think about it. Why establish a varnasrama community where you have > > independant Brahmins, whose position it is to maintain dharma, ensure > > siddhanta is known and generaly be available as impartial guides, and > > advisors, if it is all available in Srila Prabhupadas books exclusively. > > > Oh, I'm sorry I should have read further. You're saying that to > exclusively rely upon Srila Prabhupada's books as instruction is > apa-sampradayic? Because we want to make his books the common standard? > His books, sastra in English and other languages is only an "emergency" to > become non-essential at some date? > > I would certainly disagree with this, IF that is what you are saying. I'm > sorry if a misunderstood it. Bo I am not saying that at all. I was refering to other arguments which appear to favour empiric study of his books, over seeking out, praying for, and surrendering to impartial pure devotees. > I > > just dont buy the argument that we dont need help. That Srila Prabhupada > > has given us all the help already, and that we dont need pure > > unmotivated people to help us understand it. > > > I think there are two things you are talking about here: 1. Pure > transcendental instructions and, 2. varnasrama-dharma. Srila Prabhupada > said there was only one thing left "unfinished" and it was the later of > these. Yes I am talking about those two things. Of course to get technical, Srila Prabhupada didnt actualy finish the Srimad Bhagavatam. But yes he did basicaly finish enough for us to use for the next ten thousand years. Now all we have to do, instead of speculating, or arguing about his texts, we just need to secure another one of those pure devotees, to clear up any misunderstandings we may have. > He did give us quite a bit of good instruction for starting > varnasrama-dharma but there is plenty left for us to do on our own. This > does not require high, transcendental, pure unmotivated people to > implement it. It requires simple practical common sense and hard work. I agree completely. The point I am trying to make is that when one has reached the mode of goodness, through following the rules and regulations etc of varnasrama dharma, and once he is ready to dive deeply into the *mysteries* of spiritual life, THEN he will need help from a fully pure transcendentalist. After all our Philosophy is based on personalism, and it would make sense to me to have a living personal guide, to take our hands, point out the weeds that we thought were devotional creeper, and guide us through that jungle of deceptive weeds, back home. > First, of course, the leaders, if they are going to be involved in this > effort, have to admit that they NEED to implement VAD into the society and > recognize its existence and value. Pretentions alone have stopped that > effort. They have failed to do this for more than 25 years. Isn't it > pretty obvious what their intentions have been? They have concocted other > social management paradigms loosely based upon their mish-mash of Vedic > culture and came up with....present day ISKCON! Not a success story. Definatetly agreed. > > Pure, unmotivated people are always welcome. They are not a ready > commodity, obviously. Perhaps that's why Srila Prabhupada so strongly > advised his disciples to implement varnasrama-dharma: Could well be. We need to come to the mode of goodness, before we can really begin spiritual life. > > > "Ultimately the aim of varnasrama-dharma is to turn a crude man into a > pure devotee of the Lord, or a Vaisnava." SB 1.2.2 > > Room Conversation Mayapur, February 14, 1977 > "Prabhupada: Everywhere, wherever, Mayapura or anywhere. Question is that > here it is clearly said, sve sve karmany abhiratah. Brahmana has his duty, > ksatriya has his duty, vaisya has his duty, sudra has his duty. And if he > performs his duty nicely, then he also becomes perfect. So why > artificially he should be called a brahmana? Let them do, according to > sastra, the work of sudra, or vaisya. He'll get the perfect. Perfection is > not checked. But why artificially he should be made a brahmana or he > should be made a sannyasi and fall down and become a ludicrous? That is > the point. Better let him live in his position and become perfect. That's > good. That looks very nice. And that is possible. That is possible." > > With all due respect, current ISKCON mentality is about as far from the > above scenario as anyone could imagine. How are we going to develop "pure, > unmotivated" people? Just sit back and "pray" for them to come? God helps > those who help themselves. I agree, the field is full of weeds right now, and needs serious cultivation. For the first time in ages we are in complete agreement prabhu. You are so right. Praying is not something one can do casualy. It requires the earnestness that springs from dissatisfaction, where one feels that all is hopeless. Both are required, practical varnasrama development, and the praying for mercy. if both are there commitment is shown, and the Lord will surely reciprocate. YS Sd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 1999 Report Share Posted May 21, 1999 Sounds simply wonderful, and very VAD-like. We'll need at least one guru for each & every ISKCON community/asrama. ys, nistula dasa ===== >These gurus can be Kanistha or Madhyama as Srila Prabhupada has said, but >they know that, and let any aspiring servants know that. In order to >facilitate varnsarama the new devotees who find some inspirtion in these >teachers, rally round with them, and set up a small guru asrama or gurukula. >These asramas try to become self sufficient. Prabhupada teaches us that >agriculture is the noblest profession, and each asrama would aim to get a >little land to provide for itself. We understand that once sustainable >agriculture is in place, and as long as it is based on the subsistence of >the cultivators, as opposed to business, then there should be enough spare >time to engage in prayer, sankirtan (harinama and books). ===== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 1999 Report Share Posted May 21, 1999 Sounds simply wonderful, and very VAD-like. We'll need at least one guru for each & every ISKCON community/asrama. ys, nistula dasa ===== >These gurus can be Kanistha or Madhyama as Srila Prabhupada has said, but >they know that, and let any aspiring servants know that. In order to >facilitate varnsarama the new devotees who find some inspirtion in these >teachers, rally round with them, and set up a small guru asrama or gurukula. >These asramas try to become self sufficient. Prabhupada teaches us that >agriculture is the noblest profession, and each asrama would aim to get a >little land to provide for itself. We understand that once sustainable >agriculture is in place, and as long as it is based on the subsistence of >the cultivators, as opposed to business, then there should be enough spare >time to engage in prayer, sankirtan (harinama and books). ===== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 1999 Report Share Posted May 21, 1999 > > > > "Uttama-adhikari pure devotees on this side of the line, the rest of the > > world on the other!" > > > I guess I can get bothered by your endless sarcasm too. Of what > constructive use is it? Please make your point if you have one so that > someone else might be able to respond intelligently, or at least try. Wel, that's exactly what you were doing, discriminating barely on who is an uttama-adhikari pure devotee and who is not. Without any other consideration. Thus you lump a number of disciples of present ISCKON gurus in the same pot with the followers of some impersonalist lady-guru from an asrama near Monticello. See, they (ISCKON gurus) are not the uttamas, see, she (the guru impersonalist) is not an uttama. You could take as well as the following of any fool in this world to compare with following present ISCKON gurus, just like you picked-up that impersonalist guru of your sister, graunded on the same base: "following a non-uttma-adhikaris". In one sentence, shortly, all your discrimination was barely based on: "Uttama-adhikari pure devotees on this side of the line, the rest of the world on the other!" I thought I could try to manage to make the point without need of 100 words. ys mnd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 1999 Report Share Posted May 21, 1999 > > > > "Uttama-adhikari pure devotees on this side of the line, the rest of the > > world on the other!" > > > I guess I can get bothered by your endless sarcasm too. Of what > constructive use is it? Please make your point if you have one so that > someone else might be able to respond intelligently, or at least try. Wel, that's exactly what you were doing, discriminating barely on who is an uttama-adhikari pure devotee and who is not. Without any other consideration. Thus you lump a number of disciples of present ISCKON gurus in the same pot with the followers of some impersonalist lady-guru from an asrama near Monticello. See, they (ISCKON gurus) are not the uttamas, see, she (the guru impersonalist) is not an uttama. You could take as well as the following of any fool in this world to compare with following present ISCKON gurus, just like you picked-up that impersonalist guru of your sister, graunded on the same base: "following a non-uttma-adhikaris". In one sentence, shortly, all your discrimination was barely based on: "Uttama-adhikari pure devotees on this side of the line, the rest of the world on the other!" I thought I could try to manage to make the point without need of 100 words. ys mnd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 1999 Report Share Posted May 21, 1999 > > Yes I am talking about those two things. Of course to get technical, Srila > Prabhupada didnt actualy finish the Srimad Bhagavatam. But yes he did > basicaly finish enough for us to use for the next ten thousand years. Now > all we have to do, instead of speculating, or arguing about his texts, we > just need to secure another one of those pure devotees, to clear up any > misunderstandings we may have. Srila Prabhupada did not succeed in it when here (to clear up any misunderstandings there might be), so why then expect somebody else will do it? There was a loooot of misunderstandings among his followers, while he was present in the midst of them. Why look for a mirage in a desert? What you are proposing is not just simply the literal application of the sastric injunction "Find a pure devotee of Krsna for your guru." You are looking for an another ISCKON acarya to lead us, the entire ISCKON, both Srila Prabhupada's disciples and the disciples of Srila Prabhupada's disciples. However, even in the case of an another self-illuminated nitya-siddha descending among us, there is no reason to believe that "any misunderstandings we may have" would be cleared up. It would be rather the power of that acarya's words "It is so. It is not so" that would be resolving our despute. Not necessarily our misunderstandings. See what happened after departure of Bhaktisiddhanta, and after the departure of Prabhupada. If they all (or the majority, at least) got it all resolved in their understandings of Acaryas' will, then that what happened right after Acaryas' departure would have never occured. ys mnd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 1999 Report Share Posted May 21, 1999 > > Yes I am talking about those two things. Of course to get technical, Srila > Prabhupada didnt actualy finish the Srimad Bhagavatam. But yes he did > basicaly finish enough for us to use for the next ten thousand years. Now > all we have to do, instead of speculating, or arguing about his texts, we > just need to secure another one of those pure devotees, to clear up any > misunderstandings we may have. Srila Prabhupada did not succeed in it when here (to clear up any misunderstandings there might be), so why then expect somebody else will do it? There was a loooot of misunderstandings among his followers, while he was present in the midst of them. Why look for a mirage in a desert? What you are proposing is not just simply the literal application of the sastric injunction "Find a pure devotee of Krsna for your guru." You are looking for an another ISCKON acarya to lead us, the entire ISCKON, both Srila Prabhupada's disciples and the disciples of Srila Prabhupada's disciples. However, even in the case of an another self-illuminated nitya-siddha descending among us, there is no reason to believe that "any misunderstandings we may have" would be cleared up. It would be rather the power of that acarya's words "It is so. It is not so" that would be resolving our despute. Not necessarily our misunderstandings. See what happened after departure of Bhaktisiddhanta, and after the departure of Prabhupada. If they all (or the majority, at least) got it all resolved in their understandings of Acaryas' will, then that what happened right after Acaryas' departure would have never occured. ys mnd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 1999 Report Share Posted May 21, 1999 On 21 May 1999, Mahanidhi das wrote: > Wel, that's exactly what you were doing, discriminating barely > on who is an uttama-adhikari pure devotee and who is not. > I thought I could try to manage to make the point without need of > 100 words. Yes. Let's keep it short: 1. Prabhupada is the one who said the guru (siksa/diksa) should be an uttama adhikari, right? Who are the uttama-adhikaris accessible as gurus presently? "Uttamas all on one side of the world, all the rest over here" or whatever you said, makes little sense to me. My point is there IS an unquestioned uttama-adhikari guru accessible to everyone right now. Why should anyone be denied access? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 1999 Report Share Posted May 21, 1999 On 21 May 1999, Mahanidhi das wrote: > Wel, that's exactly what you were doing, discriminating barely > on who is an uttama-adhikari pure devotee and who is not. > I thought I could try to manage to make the point without need of > 100 words. Yes. Let's keep it short: 1. Prabhupada is the one who said the guru (siksa/diksa) should be an uttama adhikari, right? Who are the uttama-adhikaris accessible as gurus presently? "Uttamas all on one side of the world, all the rest over here" or whatever you said, makes little sense to me. My point is there IS an unquestioned uttama-adhikari guru accessible to everyone right now. Why should anyone be denied access? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 1999 Report Share Posted May 21, 1999 On 21 May 1999, Samba das wrote: > I agree, the field is full of weeds right now, and needs serious > cultivation. For the first time in ages we are in complete agreement prabhu. I am relieved! :-) I have a thick concrete skull so things take a while to get through. We may not agree on everything but I will compromise much, knowing that I do not know all, if we can just start working steadfastly on varnasrama-dharma. > You are so right. Praying is not something one can do casualy. It requires > the earnestness that springs from dissatisfaction, where one feels that all > is hopeless. Both are required, practical varnasrama development, and the > praying for mercy. if both are there commitment is shown, and the Lord will > surely reciprocate. Surely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 1999 Report Share Posted May 21, 1999 On 21 May 1999, Samba das wrote: > I agree, the field is full of weeds right now, and needs serious > cultivation. For the first time in ages we are in complete agreement prabhu. I am relieved! :-) I have a thick concrete skull so things take a while to get through. We may not agree on everything but I will compromise much, knowing that I do not know all, if we can just start working steadfastly on varnasrama-dharma. > You are so right. Praying is not something one can do casualy. It requires > the earnestness that springs from dissatisfaction, where one feels that all > is hopeless. Both are required, practical varnasrama development, and the > praying for mercy. if both are there commitment is shown, and the Lord will > surely reciprocate. Surely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 1999 Report Share Posted May 21, 1999 > What you are proposing is not just simply the literal application of the > sastric injunction "Find a pure devotee of Krsna for your guru." You are > looking for an another ISCKON acarya to lead us, > the entire ISCKON, both Srila Prabhupada's disciples and the disciples of > Srila Prabhupada's disciples. I have not been thinking along those lines. In the last few hundred years there have been many pure souls, associates of Bhaktivinoda, Bhaktisiddhanta, etc. Many of them probably just had a few disciples, and were simple. I personaly beleive that Srila PRabhupada will be the last WORLD acarya for the next ten thouand years. He was very special, and why would he have specificaly stated that his books are the law books for that time period? I dont see why there could not be a number of less flamboyant, but nonetheless potent pure devotees. Does it not make sense that there will be as many pure devotees as are needed according to the amount of people who sincerely want them? Ok you could bring up the argument that Prabhupada was only one, and had thousands of disciples. But how many of them were really ready to surrender fully? I know myself I had a hankering for truth, but I was not ready to surrender to a pure devotee. I agree with Janesvara that we need Varnasrama to bring us to the right level. Only when we are rightly situated can we elevate ourselves to satva, and from there we can jump to suddha satva with the Lords mercy, where we actualy begin our deep spiritual life. However, even in the case of an another > self-illuminated nitya-siddha descending among us, there > is no reason to believe that "any misunderstandings we may have" > would be cleared up. You are absolutely right. Even if some great souls appear, any of those that dont want to accept what he says, will argue, and probabaly leave, and that will always be the case. But for those who are prepared to surrender, and who want the problems solved, they will be very happy. Ys Sd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 1999 Report Share Posted May 21, 1999 > What you are proposing is not just simply the literal application of the > sastric injunction "Find a pure devotee of Krsna for your guru." You are > looking for an another ISCKON acarya to lead us, > the entire ISCKON, both Srila Prabhupada's disciples and the disciples of > Srila Prabhupada's disciples. I have not been thinking along those lines. In the last few hundred years there have been many pure souls, associates of Bhaktivinoda, Bhaktisiddhanta, etc. Many of them probably just had a few disciples, and were simple. I personaly beleive that Srila PRabhupada will be the last WORLD acarya for the next ten thouand years. He was very special, and why would he have specificaly stated that his books are the law books for that time period? I dont see why there could not be a number of less flamboyant, but nonetheless potent pure devotees. Does it not make sense that there will be as many pure devotees as are needed according to the amount of people who sincerely want them? Ok you could bring up the argument that Prabhupada was only one, and had thousands of disciples. But how many of them were really ready to surrender fully? I know myself I had a hankering for truth, but I was not ready to surrender to a pure devotee. I agree with Janesvara that we need Varnasrama to bring us to the right level. Only when we are rightly situated can we elevate ourselves to satva, and from there we can jump to suddha satva with the Lords mercy, where we actualy begin our deep spiritual life. However, even in the case of an another > self-illuminated nitya-siddha descending among us, there > is no reason to believe that "any misunderstandings we may have" > would be cleared up. You are absolutely right. Even if some great souls appear, any of those that dont want to accept what he says, will argue, and probabaly leave, and that will always be the case. But for those who are prepared to surrender, and who want the problems solved, they will be very happy. Ys Sd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 1999 Report Share Posted May 21, 1999 > Yes. Let's keep it short: > > 1. Prabhupada is the one who said the guru (siksa/diksa) should be an > uttama adhikari, right? > Who are the uttama-adhikaris accessible as gurus presently? > "Mahanidhi Mr.Paramatma" has been asked a short and concise question that requires a short and precise answer. But he is failing. If you are looking for one, then it is your responsibility to evaluate for yourself. And if you are simply making an argument "There is no bona-fide (read: uttama-adhikari) guru in ISCKON", then it would be a fool's business to try to name some to you. > > > "Uttamas all on one side of the world, all the rest over here" or whatever > you said, makes little sense to me. > > My point is there IS an unquestioned uttama-adhikari guru accessible to > everyone right now. Why should anyone be denied access? And my point is, let's show a bit more sense of discrimination than merely "they are not uttama-adhikari pure devotees gurus" when it comes to evaluating the following of your sister's bogus gurujini impersonalist from that group somewhere there over, on one side, and the following the present ISCKON gurus on the other side. Wether this make little sense to you or not, I can't be more exact than I am. You asked me to elaborate, to make my point if I have one, so that someone else might be able to respond intelligently, or at least try. I did it two times already. ys mnd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 1999 Report Share Posted May 21, 1999 > Yes. Let's keep it short: > > 1. Prabhupada is the one who said the guru (siksa/diksa) should be an > uttama adhikari, right? > Who are the uttama-adhikaris accessible as gurus presently? > "Mahanidhi Mr.Paramatma" has been asked a short and concise question that requires a short and precise answer. But he is failing. If you are looking for one, then it is your responsibility to evaluate for yourself. And if you are simply making an argument "There is no bona-fide (read: uttama-adhikari) guru in ISCKON", then it would be a fool's business to try to name some to you. > > > "Uttamas all on one side of the world, all the rest over here" or whatever > you said, makes little sense to me. > > My point is there IS an unquestioned uttama-adhikari guru accessible to > everyone right now. Why should anyone be denied access? And my point is, let's show a bit more sense of discrimination than merely "they are not uttama-adhikari pure devotees gurus" when it comes to evaluating the following of your sister's bogus gurujini impersonalist from that group somewhere there over, on one side, and the following the present ISCKON gurus on the other side. Wether this make little sense to you or not, I can't be more exact than I am. You asked me to elaborate, to make my point if I have one, so that someone else might be able to respond intelligently, or at least try. I did it two times already. ys mnd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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