Guest guest Posted May 14, 1999 Report Share Posted May 14, 1999 > I happened to be present few times in Mayapur, when all present > SCKON leaders, gurus, sannyasis, devotees were celebrating, infront of Sri > Sri Radha-Madhava, the best sankirtan devotees through several concessive > years, Harinamanada and Navina-nirada Prabhus. These two are still going > on out, distributing books. Incredibly. You try to do like them. Who are these SCKON leaders? Must have missed out. (sorry I couldn't resist). Certainly Srila Prabhupada was very happy when he heard the books were going out. But just the activity if not done with the right motivation will not save one. Some of the book distributors that I knew in the mid 70's appeared to be motivated by name and fame, regular trips to India, nice walkmans, best prasad etc. Some of them are now complete debauchees and have been for years, but of course they might come back, and certainly whatever sincere endeavour they put in is recognised by the Lord. Maybe they will continue their aspiration for spiritual life this life, maybe next. Others among them are still with us. Spiritual aspiration is an individual thing. Thousands of people joined at the Manor in the 70's, but the majority of them are not with us now. The majority of Srila Prabhupadas disciples also left. We know that out of many thousands of men only a few will endeavour for spiritual life. So we can see that practicaly. > Funy that you are telling me to be good in cynicism. After this > ascertain of yours that these glorious devotees are making > "pious" activities that will result, eventually, in their > beginning actual spiritual advancement. One cannot acurately generalise of course. But can YOU say what each of their motivations was? As I keep saying if they are sincere the Lord will recognise that and fulfil their desires. > I like that you brought this example in discussion. Because > this same example confirms indeed that a guru doesn't have > to be an uttama-adhikary. Let's have a closer look. > > Srila Prabhupada: > > "Dhruva had a feeling of obligation to his mother, Suniti. It was Suniti > who had given him the clue which had now enabled him to be personally > carried to the Vaikuntha planet by the associates of Lord Visnu. He now > remembered her and wanted to take her with him. Actually, Dhruva > Maharaja's mother, Suniti, was his patha-pradarsaka-guru. > Patha-pradarsaka-guru means "the guru, or the spiritual master, who shows > the way." Prabhu.. thank you... now I know who is my real guru. I should have realised it all along. I was determined to find Krsna, and my freind Paddy O'Flaherty, showed me the way. He directed me toward the Krsna Temple. He certainly has potency, as he can down 16 pints of strong ale in a single evening. I shall immediately approach him for Siksa. Seriously, we should certainly be grateful to anyone who puts us right in life, especialy if they help us to understand the right direction. But would you take complete shelter of such a person. If Dhruva's mum was all he needed he could have saved a lot of time, and stayed right at home. Narada could have saved himself a trip to the Jungle. There are many gurus, and Srila Prabhupada mentions one here. But you have to surender to the right one. My music teacher is a guru, but he cant take me to the Lord, because he does not have the Lord. But dont you think Narad had a tad to do with it? > - Suniti was a bogus guru, so Dhruva got to get another one > to get initiation from. Not bogus, because of her Dhruva was fortunate enough to get Narada. I wish MY mum could do that for me. You can only take diksa from one at a time. But you can take siksa from many. Maybe I loosely bandied around the word bogus before? OK I was wrong. Anyone who alerts one to spiritual life, cant be that bad. It is a fact that one cannot say that all the previous gurus were wrong all the time, whatever they transmitted without change was of some benefit. Have you not heard however, that Kali has also taken shelter in our movement, and sometimes manifests in so called devotees, to disrupt Prabhupadas movement (can anyone give a reference to that?). The danger is within. We have to be very careful who we accept. > - Dhruva accrues pious credit that results in getting a real > guru, and thus he may start the actual spiritual advancement. Yep. > Please provide the guru-sadhu-sastra reference for the "principle" that > unless one's diksa guru is not an infallible nitya-siddha, he can't "begin > actual spiritual advancement". That he can't > be connected to Guru-parampara (Srila Prabhupada, for us). Well it all depends on your definition of guru doesnt it. As Prabhupada mentions there are differnet gurus. If your goal is Krsna Prema, you need someone who has it to give it. If you want less then take someone who is less than a completely self realised soul. In another text I posted the various levels of advancement from Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu, and there it is clearly stated that an uttama adhikary is the one who has Krsna Prema. If you want less then settle for a Madhyama guru, or you can go for a Kanistha, or why not settle for my freind Paddy? (address available) Prabhupada says in CC. Madhya 24.330 "The guru must be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotee, and the guru must be accepted from the topmost class... When one has attained the topmost position of mahabhagavata, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru." NOI text 5 (p 48+) "One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama adhikary... The uttama adhikari or highest devotee, is one who is very advanced in devotional service. An uttama adhikari is not interested in blaspheming others, his heart is completely clean, and he has attained the realised state of unnalloyed Krsna Consciousness. According to Rupa Goswami, the association and service of such a mahabhagavata, or perfect vaisnava, are most desirable..." NOI text 5 (p58) "One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama adhikary. A neophyte vaisnava or a vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttma adhikary as a spiritual master." The 'principle' is that if you want Krsna Prema you have to approach one who has it, surrender to him, serve and please him. Then if he is pleased he will impart the essence of spiritual knowledge into your heart. That is the principle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 1999 Report Share Posted May 14, 1999 > > > Exactly and that is ISKCON problem right now. Most of HKM's disciple > probably thought he was the real thing, and got horribly let down. There > appears to be a phenomenon in ISKCON where even if a guru says 'I am not a > pure devotee', all his disciples go 'Oh he is SO humble, look at him, he's > such a pure devotee'. They don't want to listen to anyone, even their own > guru, and often the guru accepts this misconception anyway, becasue it makes > for bigger collections. TRANSLATION Sometimes the progress of imperfect transcendentalists is checked by attachment to family members, disciples or others, who are sent by envious demigods for that purpose. But on the strength of their accumulated advancement, such imperfect transcendentalists will resume their practice of yoga in the next life. They will never again be trapped in the network of fruitive work. PURPORT Sometimes sannyasis and other spiritual teachers are bewildered by flattering followers and disciples sent by the demigods to embarrass spiritual leaders who are lacking complete spiritual knowledge. Similarly, spiritual progress is sometimes checked by attachment to one's bodily relatives. Although an imperfect transcendentalist may fall down from yoga practice in this life, he will resume it in the next life on the strength of his accumulated merit, as described in the Bhagavad-gita. The words na tu karma-tantram indicate that a fallen transcendentalist does not have to pass through the lower stages of fruitive activity and gradually be promoted to the practice of yoga. Rather, he will immediately resume his yoga practice at that point at which he left it. Of course, one should not presume to fall back on the facility offered here but should try to become perfect in this lifetime. Sannyasis, especially, should remove the knot of lust from their hearts and should avoid falling into the clutches of flattering followers or female disciples sent by the demigods to expose a so-called spiritual leader who is imperfect in Krsna conscious knowledge. >>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 11.28.29 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 1999 Report Share Posted May 14, 1999 > > > And how and when was it that they received diksa? Was there a particular > ceremony which I missed? Srila Prabhupada routinely used rittviks to give ceremonies when he wasn't there. Usually he would chant on beads and send them for the ceremony, though later, he designated Kirtananda and others to chant on beads on his behalf and then Kirtanananda would send the beads. I think he was still picking the names the devotees would get, even after he had others doing the chanting on the beads and giving the physical ceremony. I can remember walking into Kirtananda's cabin and seeing him there with a big pile of beads he would be chanting on for Srila Prabhupada. > > > Madhava Gosh Prabhu, or other Prabhupada disciples on this conference, would > you please describe to me when it was that you received diksa from Srila > Prabhupada? About June, 1974, in NV. Srila Prabhupada was there personally and did hand me my beads directly. > > How was it "performed". Did you speak/hear directly/personally to Srila > Prabhupada when it happened. > Not other than the question he asked "What are the 4 regulative principles?" which I did manage to croak out. Then he said my name, but I didn't really understand what it was exactly, only Madhava something, until later when the letter or whatever came with it in writing. > > Please, please respond. This is a very serious question of mine, not > rhetorical. > > Thank you in advance. > > Jd For all his initiations, hewas physically present on the same planet at the same time and aware of each individual candidate with a veto power, just sometimes he used agents due to logistical difficulties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 1999 Report Share Posted May 14, 1999 > > And you are saying that association cannot be obtained through the books? > Therefore no one has made advancement in ISKCON since Srila Prabhupada left > the planet? If you want to learn how to drive a car, it is very beneficial to read the rules of the State, to read a book by the most expert driver on all driving tips. Still, it is best if you have someone in the car with you the first couple of times around the block, even if their knowledge is not as complete as the books, or even if they aren't a world class driver themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 1999 Report Share Posted May 14, 1999 "WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA)" wrote: > [Text 2315901 from COM] > > On 13 May 1999, Samba das wrote: > > > That would be impersonal. Anyone can say, Oh I got the instruction from the > > books. Spiritual life means discipline, being disciplined by the guru. > > I never once was disciplined "personally/directly/bodily" by Srila Prabhupada > and neither were thousands of my godbrothers. What of us, Prabhu? We have only > had his indirect instructions given to us via his authorized representatives > and mostly his books. Did he not accept any of our service? I thought you said he sauced you for going along with Tokyo Rose fandango? That sounded pretty personal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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