Jivan Mukta lashes out again. - Madhusudani Radha

[Guest guest]

At 8:11 -0800 5/3/99, COM: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New Vrindavan - USA)

wrote:

>[Text 2286421 from COM]

>

>Well , Madhusudhani, I see your buddy JM is still going after you. I didn't

>have time to plow through the whole thing, but he is hard at you on VNN.

 

Madhusudani Radha responds:

 

Maybe I should feel flattered that he consider me such a threat that he has to

spend so much energy on trying to discredit me. ;-) I saw that he hinted at a

"part 2" in which he'd show that I'm unable to absolve Srila Prabhupada of any

responsibility for the gurukula abuses. I can save him the trouble. Although

the lion's share of the burden obviously rests with the abusers themselves, I

do think that *everyone* who was in ISKCON at the time shoulders some of the

blame.

 

Vyapaka dasa's comment:

 

This is fatally flawed logic. How can you blame everyone in Iskcon for abuses

being undertaken at other centers? I have been told that Hiranyagarbha

commented in your discussions that he was chastised by Srila Prabhupada for

having physically punished one of the children. Don't blame Prabhupada for all

of the perversions carried out by his nonsense disciples.

 

M.Radha:

 

So there, Jivanmukta (if someone leaks this to you), I've admitted it. You can

take a break from the computer now and go back to helping Sita take care of the

family. Didn't you recently have a new baby?

 

Is there something wrong with a husband taking care of the children and

assisting his wife in their upbringing. Jivan Mukta home-schools his children.

This was a conscious choice because he didn't want to send his kids to a karmi

school/slaughterhouse which differs greatly from your decision.

 

Prabhupäda: No they say, they simply give primary education (indistinct) they

can read, that’s all. And (indistinct). They don’t send because everyone knows

that sending boys to the school means spoil them. That’s all. I have seen

intelligent boys, they go to school and he is spoiled. Yes, spoiled. He learns

how to smoke, how to have sex, how to talk nonsense, how to use knife, how to

fight, these things. At least at the present moment. Yes. Simply

slaughterhouse, this so-called school is called slaughterhouse. Yes,

slaughterhouse. (Room conversation July 9/73, London)

 

Aren't Srila Prabhupada's words apropos when we see all the violence being

experienced in North American schools?! There is no argument from me that there

has been many shortcomings in our adaptation of the gurukula system but it is

imperative to remember that the inconsistencies are not the property of the

gurukula system but rather of the mleccha culture/public school upbringing that

we are constantly battling with while we struggle to develop our Krsna

consciousness. The gurukula system is perfect -- we are the ones at fault. I

don't remember hearing of any abuse to Lord Krsna and Balarama while they

attended gurukula and in my opinion they turned out alright.

 

Madhava Ghosh:

 

>Funny how all the victimization those GHQ types claimed when their texts were

>thrown out in public is conveniently set aside when it is in his percieved

>interest to do the same.

 

Madhusudani Radha:

 

The whole thing is so silly. This was just an academic discussion of possible

ways of dealing with language that makes it impossible to use Srila

Prabhupada's books for academic preaching. For one thing, they no longer

conform to the professional standards for non-sexist speech. So if Prabhupada

*really meant "he or she" when saying he (which is what the convention *used to

be*), then that needs to be changed in academic editions. Similarly, some kind

of footnotes should be inserted to suggest different ways of understanding what

he meant by his "women are less intelligent" statements and the comment about

women liking to be raped among others. E.g. is it material intelligence,

spiritual intelligence or something completely different? Those are the things

scholars will notice and react to.

 

Vd.:

 

The material scholars have reacted to Srila Prabhupada books. So well, in fact

that the BBT published a pamphlet listing many scholars' praises. Haven't you

ever seen it? Did you know that in the 1970's, Gallup published a poll which

concluded that approx. 1 to 1.5% of the population identified with the Hare

Krishna movement as their religion. This by the way, was a multiple choice

questionnaire which didn't list our movement but a significant portion actually

wrote in Hare Krsna.

 

Has your suggestion of footnoting Prabhupada's books been adopted by the BBT?

Who will do the footnoting?

 

In regards to academics' reactions, aren't you a PhD? You became a devotee or

are you immune to these type of statements?

 

M.Radha:

 

I actually don't really care about whether or not the books are changed. I

don't do academic preaching, so it doesn't affect me. However, I do think it's

sad if Prabhupada is indeed misrepresented because of language and cultural

issues and if this in turn keeps educated peole from wanting to learn about

Krsna. That's all.

 

Vd.:

 

If you don't care then why are you pushing for it so hard? There are many

educated people reading Srila Prabhupada's books and many are full time

devotees and congregational members. Perhaps you haven't heard of the

Bhaktivedanta Institute. These are many well-educated devotees who have taken

up the full time responsibility of proving the tenets of the Vedas as described

in Srila PRabhupada's books. They are meeting with great success as well. If we

want to have any longlasting potency we must all do the same

 

You mention language but certainly the Western intellectuals must also be

bothered by Vedic cosmology and astronomy. Should that also be changed? Is

there any end to the potential changes that can be made in an attempt to pacify

scholars? Obviously not. You speak of cultural differences. Well, you hit it

right on the head. Krsna consciousness is all about transferring a spiritual

culture into a society of mlecchas. We can bend backwards in devising means on

how to attract them but changing the books is too much. Just examine the

reaction to Jayadvaita Swami's efforts and he is a long time editor of

Prabhupada's books. In your opinion, who is qualified to do these changes?

 

M. Radha:

 

So we (on VAST) simply brainstormed ways of possibly dealing with thisissue in

a way which would allow devotee scholars to use the books in academe. Some

alternatives were 1) make corrections in the books themselves, if the meanings

of words have changed in the past 30 years ( e.g. remember when "gay" meant

happy? What if our books had said Lord Caitanya was "gay"? Would we have wanted

to keep that?),

 

Vd.:

 

Of course! Are you suggesting that the academes are so stupid that they don't

know that the word gay has other meanings than being homosexual. Perhaps you

are hanging around to many homosexuals at work or something?

 

M.Radha: 2) add footnotes to some versions of the books destined for university

classes or bookshelves, or 3) just have disciples write their own books for

academe (which is what is happening).

 

Vd.: I choose #3 and hopefully the writings will be bonafide.

 

M.Radha: I don't think JM's "expose" results in anything besides making him

look very silly. He acts as if he has this big secret that he's sharing with

the world. But after hearing him accuse me of pushing for gay marriages,

pushing condoms, being unchaste and various other accusations I can't even

remember any longer, it wouldn't surprise me if most people are starting to get

bored just hearing my name. If this is the best he can do, I'm doing pretty

well.

 

Vd.: I haven't read JM's "expose" but I do notice that he is well researched

and quotes from Srila Prabhupada's books liberally; something that seems

missing from your many submissions. In many of your texts, i.e. on gurukula and

marriage standards in L.A. (I didn't read that one and was only told about it

and perhaps the info could be inaccurate), your tendency seems to be to

liberlize the Krsna conscious standard towards modern morality. I am sure I

have heard you state that you were for homosexual marriages and yet Srila

Prabhupada states:

 

Prabhupäda: That is not enjoyment. Just like sex indulgence. If you indulge in

more than necessary, then you will be impotent. Nature will stop. You know

impotency? That will be there. Impotency. This homosex is also another sign of

impotency. They do not feel sex impulse to woman. They feel sex impulse in man.

That means he is impotent. It is impotency. So things are coming so rubbish

now. This is the time for preaching our program, standard. Then?

(Converastions, Chicago, July 3/75)

 

Vd.: Obviously, this would also be objected to by the Kali Yuga academes. The

downward trend to maya never stops until we have a totally bastardized version

of Srila Prabhupada's instructions.

 

Our movement must be pushing forward to develop personally and collectively a

Krsna conscious morality and lifestyle based upon our philosophy and not pander

to those addicted to mundane isms and lifestyles embedded in the mode of

passion and ignorance. This is what the movement is all about. Your promotions

of homosexual unions, etc. would seem to belong to the former (passion and

ignorance) and not the latter (Krsna consciousness).

 

Vyapaka dasa

[Guest guest]

At 8:11 -0800 5/3/99, COM: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New Vrindavan - USA)

wrote:

>[Text 2286421 from COM]

>

>Well , Madhusudhani, I see your buddy JM is still going after you. I didn't

>have time to plow through the whole thing, but he is hard at you on VNN.

 

Madhusudani Radha responds:

 

Maybe I should feel flattered that he consider me such a threat that he has to

spend so much energy on trying to discredit me. ;-) I saw that he hinted at a

"part 2" in which he'd show that I'm unable to absolve Srila Prabhupada of any

responsibility for the gurukula abuses. I can save him the trouble. Although

the lion's share of the burden obviously rests with the abusers themselves, I

do think that *everyone* who was in ISKCON at the time shoulders some of the

blame.

 

Vyapaka dasa's comment:

 

This is fatally flawed logic. How can you blame everyone in Iskcon for abuses

being undertaken at other centers? I have been told that Hiranyagarbha

commented in your discussions that he was chastised by Srila Prabhupada for

having physically punished one of the children. Don't blame Prabhupada for all

of the perversions carried out by his nonsense disciples.

 

M.Radha:

 

So there, Jivanmukta (if someone leaks this to you), I've admitted it. You can

take a break from the computer now and go back to helping Sita take care of the

family. Didn't you recently have a new baby?

 

Is there something wrong with a husband taking care of the children and

assisting his wife in their upbringing. Jivan Mukta home-schools his children.

This was a conscious choice because he didn't want to send his kids to a karmi

school/slaughterhouse which differs greatly from your decision.

 

Prabhupäda: No they say, they simply give primary education (indistinct) they

can read, that’s all. And (indistinct). They don’t send because everyone knows

that sending boys to the school means spoil them. That’s all. I have seen

intelligent boys, they go to school and he is spoiled. Yes, spoiled. He learns

how to smoke, how to have sex, how to talk nonsense, how to use knife, how to

fight, these things. At least at the present moment. Yes. Simply

slaughterhouse, this so-called school is called slaughterhouse. Yes,

slaughterhouse. (Room conversation July 9/73, London)

 

Aren't Srila Prabhupada's words apropos when we see all the violence being

experienced in North American schools?! There is no argument from me that there

has been many shortcomings in our adaptation of the gurukula system but it is

imperative to remember that the inconsistencies are not the property of the

gurukula system but rather of the mleccha culture/public school upbringing that

we are constantly battling with while we struggle to develop our Krsna

consciousness. The gurukula system is perfect -- we are the ones at fault. I

don't remember hearing of any abuse to Lord Krsna and Balarama while they

attended gurukula and in my opinion they turned out alright.

 

Madhava Ghosh:

 

>Funny how all the victimization those GHQ types claimed when their texts were

>thrown out in public is conveniently set aside when it is in his percieved

>interest to do the same.

 

Madhusudani Radha:

 

The whole thing is so silly. This was just an academic discussion of possible

ways of dealing with language that makes it impossible to use Srila

Prabhupada's books for academic preaching. For one thing, they no longer

conform to the professional standards for non-sexist speech. So if Prabhupada

*really meant "he or she" when saying he (which is what the convention *used to

be*), then that needs to be changed in academic editions. Similarly, some kind

of footnotes should be inserted to suggest different ways of understanding what

he meant by his "women are less intelligent" statements and the comment about

women liking to be raped among others. E.g. is it material intelligence,

spiritual intelligence or something completely different? Those are the things

scholars will notice and react to.

 

Vd.:

 

The material scholars have reacted to Srila Prabhupada books. So well, in fact

that the BBT published a pamphlet listing many scholars' praises. Haven't you

ever seen it? Did you know that in the 1970's, Gallup published a poll which

concluded that approx. 1 to 1.5% of the population identified with the Hare

Krishna movement as their religion. This by the way, was a multiple choice

questionnaire which didn't list our movement but a significant portion actually

wrote in Hare Krsna.

 

Has your suggestion of footnoting Prabhupada's books been adopted by the BBT?

Who will do the footnoting?

 

In regards to academics' reactions, aren't you a PhD? You became a devotee or

are you immune to these type of statements?

 

M.Radha:

 

I actually don't really care about whether or not the books are changed. I

don't do academic preaching, so it doesn't affect me. However, I do think it's

sad if Prabhupada is indeed misrepresented because of language and cultural

issues and if this in turn keeps educated peole from wanting to learn about

Krsna. That's all.

 

Vd.:

 

If you don't care then why are you pushing for it so hard? There are many

educated people reading Srila Prabhupada's books and many are full time

devotees and congregational members. Perhaps you haven't heard of the

Bhaktivedanta Institute. These are many well-educated devotees who have taken

up the full time responsibility of proving the tenets of the Vedas as described

in Srila PRabhupada's books. They are meeting with great success as well. If we

want to have any longlasting potency we must all do the same

 

You mention language but certainly the Western intellectuals must also be

bothered by Vedic cosmology and astronomy. Should that also be changed? Is

there any end to the potential changes that can be made in an attempt to pacify

scholars? Obviously not. You speak of cultural differences. Well, you hit it

right on the head. Krsna consciousness is all about transferring a spiritual

culture into a society of mlecchas. We can bend backwards in devising means on

how to attract them but changing the books is too much. Just examine the

reaction to Jayadvaita Swami's efforts and he is a long time editor of

Prabhupada's books. In your opinion, who is qualified to do these changes?

 

M. Radha:

 

So we (on VAST) simply brainstormed ways of possibly dealing with thisissue in

a way which would allow devotee scholars to use the books in academe. Some

alternatives were 1) make corrections in the books themselves, if the meanings

of words have changed in the past 30 years ( e.g. remember when "gay" meant

happy? What if our books had said Lord Caitanya was "gay"? Would we have wanted

to keep that?),

 

Vd.:

 

Of course! Are you suggesting that the academes are so stupid that they don't

know that the word gay has other meanings than being homosexual. Perhaps you

are hanging around to many homosexuals at work or something?

 

M.Radha: 2) add footnotes to some versions of the books destined for university

classes or bookshelves, or 3) just have disciples write their own books for

academe (which is what is happening).

 

Vd.: I choose #3 and hopefully the writings will be bonafide.

 

M.Radha: I don't think JM's "expose" results in anything besides making him

look very silly. He acts as if he has this big secret that he's sharing with

the world. But after hearing him accuse me of pushing for gay marriages,

pushing condoms, being unchaste and various other accusations I can't even

remember any longer, it wouldn't surprise me if most people are starting to get

bored just hearing my name. If this is the best he can do, I'm doing pretty

well.

 

Vd.: I haven't read JM's "expose" but I do notice that he is well researched

and quotes from Srila Prabhupada's books liberally; something that seems

missing from your many submissions. In many of your texts, i.e. on gurukula and

marriage standards in L.A. (I didn't read that one and was only told about it

and perhaps the info could be inaccurate), your tendency seems to be to

liberlize the Krsna conscious standard towards modern morality. I am sure I

have heard you state that you were for homosexual marriages and yet Srila

Prabhupada states:

 

Prabhupäda: That is not enjoyment. Just like sex indulgence. If you indulge in

more than necessary, then you will be impotent. Nature will stop. You know

impotency? That will be there. Impotency. This homosex is also another sign of

impotency. They do not feel sex impulse to woman. They feel sex impulse in man.

That means he is impotent. It is impotency. So things are coming so rubbish

now. This is the time for preaching our program, standard. Then?

(Converastions, Chicago, July 3/75)

 

Vd.: Obviously, this would also be objected to by the Kali Yuga academes. The

downward trend to maya never stops until we have a totally bastardized version

of Srila Prabhupada's instructions.

 

Our movement must be pushing forward to develop personally and collectively a

Krsna conscious morality and lifestyle based upon our philosophy and not pander

to those addicted to mundane isms and lifestyles embedded in the mode of

passion and ignorance. This is what the movement is all about. Your promotions

of homosexual unions, etc. would seem to belong to the former (passion and

ignorance) and not the latter (Krsna consciousness).

 

Vyapaka dasa