Guru, sadhu and sastra.

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Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

> > At Srila Prabhupadas lotusfeet I find the instructions to surrender to

> > a

> > spiritual master (As confirmed in sastra).

>

>

> I'm sorry, are you saying Srila Prabhupada is not a spiritual master? As

> confirmed in sastra?

 

No quite the opposite.

 

>

 

> > Please read that quote again.

>

>

> Yes sir! You're right I am really a poor reader.

 

Never said that, just thought it was a really nice quote.

>

> > "I shall remain your personal guidance, physically present or not

> > physically, as I am getting personal guidance from my Guru Maharaja."

> > Srila Prabhupada is getting personal guidance from his Guru Maharaja,

> > his

> > disciples are getting personal guidance from their Guru Maharaja,

>

>

> Unfortunately you seem to forget about the thousands of disciples who were

> left out in the cold by bogus gurus as the result of being coerced into a

> guru relationship which did not look carefully enough at the

> qualifications necessary to become a guru.

As far as I understand they became connected not only to the spiritual

master but through him also to the rest of the family, parampara and Lord

Krishna as long as their sincere surrender was never only to him exclusively

but to the Supreme Lord. If a spiritual master violates this principle the

instruction is not to follow him as shown by Bali Maharaja.

 

"Regarding your question 'are the spiritual master and the grand spiritual

master consciously aware of the prayers of a sincere devotee who prays in

love to them? The answer is that no conscious prayers go in vain. They are

transmitted positively. But one thing you must know that any prayer you

offer to your spiritual master and superior spiritual master, all of them

are conveyed to Krsna, so no sincere prayers go in vain. We shall always

offer such prayers to spiritual master, superior spiritual master, Vaisnava

acaryas, Lord Caitanya, and at the end Radha-Krsna; that is the system."

(SPL to Mahananda, 27th April, 1970)

 

"Regarding the disciplic succession coming from Arjuna, disciplic

succession does not always mean that one has to be initiated officially.

Disciplic succession means to accept the disciplic conclusion." (SPL to

Dinesh, 31st October, 1969)

 

Seems to prove the point of formal diksa not being absolutely nessecary.

But was it the example Srila Prabhupada advised his followers to set up?

 

"Anyone following the order of Lord Caitanya under the guidance of His bona

fide representative can become a spiritual master and I wish that in my

absence all my disciples become the bona fide spiritual master to spread

Krsna consciousness throughout the whole world." (SPL to Madhusudana, 2nd

November, 1967)

"Those possesing the title of Bhaktivedanta will be allowed to initiate

disciples. Maybe by 1975 all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and

increase the number of the generations. That is my program.(SPL Hamsaduta,

3rd December, 1968)

"A person who is a liberated acarya and guru cannot commit any mistake, but

there are persons who are less qualified or not liberated, but still can act

as guru and acarya by stricly following the disciplic succession."(SPL to

Janardana, April 26th, 1968)

" But as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime

of your spiritual master you bring the prospective disciples to him, and in

his absence or disappearence you can accept disciples without any

limitation. This is the law of disciplic succession. I want to see my

disciples become bona fide spiritual masters and spread Krsna consciousness

very widely. That will make me and Krsna very happy."(SPL to Tusta Krsna

Swami, 2nd December, 1975)

 

> Can you show me anywhere in his books where he directly said that after he

> left the planet no one could accept him as their guru?

I never said that.

Can you show me where he directly says that after he left the planet he

would still continue to give diksa?

My understanding is,that to accept disciples on Srila Prabhupada's behalf

is a personal responsability not simply a bueraucratic adjustement. You may

not consider yourself a guru but you would still have the responsibility of

training and directing the prospective disciple if you want to present him

at the lotusfeet of Srila Prabhupada. There will be a karmic reaction unless

you or him are a 100 % pure. There will still be suffering if you neglect

your duties towards the disciples under your protection.

 

"As soon as he saw that his neophyte disciples were increasing in number,

he immediately decided to leave this world. To accept disciples means to

take up the responsibility of absorbing the sinful reaction of life of the

disciples." (SPL to Satsvarupa and Udhava, July 27th, 1970)

 

>

> Srila Prabhupada has this to say:

>

> "Regarding parampara system: there is nothing to wonder for big gaps.[...]

> we find in the Bhagavad-gita that the Gita was taught to the sungod, some

> millions of years ago, but Krishna has mentioned only three names in this

> parampara system--namely, Vivasvan, Manu, and Iksvaku; and so these gaps

> do not hamper from understanding the parampara system. We have to pick up

> the prominent acaryas, and follow from him.[...] We have to pick up from

> the authority of the acharya in whatever sampradaya we belong to."

> (Letter Dayananda 4/12/68)

The phrases you left out were as far as I could see essentiel for

understanding the message:

"Regarding parampara system: there is nothing to wonder for big

gaps.[..Just like we belong to the Brahma sampradaya, so we accept it from

Krsna to Brahma, Brahma to Narada, Narada to Vyasadeva, Vyasadeva to Madhva,

and between Vyasadeva and Madhva there is a big gap. But it is sometimes

said that Vyasadeva is still living, and Madhva was fortunate enough to meet

him directly. In a similar way)we find in the Bhagavad-gita that the Gita

was taught to the sungod, some millions of years ago, but Krishna has

mentioned only three names in this parampara system--namely, Vivasvan, Manu,

and Iksvaku; and so these gaps do not hamper from understanding the

parampara system. We have to pick up the prominent acaryas, and follow from

him.[...There are many branches also from the parampara system, and it is

not possible to record all the branches and sub-branches in the disciplic

succession] We have to pick up from the authority of the acharya in whatever

sampradaya we belong to."

(Letter Dayananda 4/12/68)

 

>

> Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur's guru, as you probably know (and

is listed

> in the front of the Bg), was Narottama Dasa Thakur who "died" 100 years

> earlier. How could this occur?

 

Read Srila Prabhupadas explanations above. I dont claim to have any better,

as you know quite well I am your inferior both in age, status and

experience. Sorry for the long text but please note to my excuse that *my*

words were few.

>

> yfs,

> Jd

Your fallen servant Gunamani d.d.