Siksa as most important guru

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> > If you go back and read the excerpts I posted from Srila

> > Bhaktisiddhanta, that is what he says in regard to the disciples of

> > Bhaktivinoda. SBS was known as an extremely powerful 'simha guru' who

> > did not compromise, and unhesitatingly established siddhanta. To my mind

> > everything he speaks is siddhanta. Read carefully (I am afraid to use

> > that word nowadays) and you will see he actualy says that.

>

> Then I am saddened with the kind of this uncompromising siddhanta. That

> our best ISCKON Vaisnavas (I am afraid to use that word nowadays), the

> topmost Prabhupada's disciples, are incapable of understanding Srila

> Prabhupada's books, left helplessly in this whirlpool of the material

> existence by Srila Prabhupada. Till some another Acarya descends from the

> Spiritual Sky to deliver them.

 

(Bonafide) guru is one. Some of us may not accept the words of Srila

Bhaktisiddhanta, so does that mean he is wrong? Maybe it is just that we do

not understand what he is saying. This is further confirmation that we, very

small conditioned souls, need a bit of help to reconcile the sometimes

apparently contradictory texts of the scriptures.

 

What is a topmost disciple?

 

Helpless? No they have Srila Prabhupadas books which insist that progress

can be made by surrendering to pure devotees. But are also full of

instructions which can be used to support many differing points of view, as

we can see in ISKCON. Nowadays some of us seem to think we KNOW the answers,

but often we hold opposing points of view, yet we all read the same books.

 

I dont know, I am offering up texts that I have found that offer an opposing

view to the currently accepted norm. I am of the view that we need help

deciphering this. I had a vision today (cosmic huh). If all of us were to

live eternaly, we would be sitting at our computers, arguing eternaly over

what Srila Prabhupada meant here, and what he meant there, and never getting

anywhere nearer. It might be simpler to just admit we need help, and ask the

lord to send it.

 

As far as 'some other acarya descending from the spiritual sky'. Krsna

promises that he will help any sincere soul who cries out for help. Krsna is

a person, and our dearest friend. You make it sound like some kind of

impossible dream. Has your faith have dropped so low? Krsna does care about

us, and he is waiting for our sincere cry for help.

 

> What surprises me now even more is that something like that, which is of

> an extreme essential importance, was never told by Prabhupada to his

> disciples, nor mentioned nowhere in his books. I mean, that after his

> departure, they got to get an another acarya to get the proper

> understanding of his books and to get delivered from the Maya's grip.

 

As you yourself have mentioned, on every other page he tells us of the need

to find a pure devotee. Is it not logical that if one failed to make

progress, because of his attachments while Prabhupada was here, that he

should take Siksa from someone who can guide him once he approaches the

higher realms? If we accept all of Srila Prabhupadas writings I am sure we

can find quotes to support this. Unfortunately I am hampered by not having

the vedabase, and that would require some quite intense research.

 

According to the Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu, when one reaches the stage of

advancement as a Madhyama, known as Sadhana raganuga bhakti. There is a

mellow(?) called asakti. 'Attachment' (Loving inclination) the seed of

bhava. One follows in the footsteps of one of the inhabitants of vrindavan,

develops a spiritual body, and his rasa with Krsna is revealed.

 

Every morning we sing 'Nikunja-yuno rati keli siddhyai', that the spiritual

master is very dear because he is expert in assisting the gopis, who at

different times make different tasteful arrangements for the perfection of

Radha and Krsna's conjugal loving affairs, within the groves of Vrindavana.

 

This is lofty stuff. There are many details of spiritual life which require

personal instruction, learning from a book, can often lead to confusion and

mistakes. This is true of such simple things as cooking. Surely to progress

to the stage of assisting the gopis, one requires expert help?

 

> In "normal" circumstances I would simply advise to approach

> your Guru Maharaja for the clearance. But, you have, apparently,

> already made the conclusion on what siddhanta is, from reading

> the "Harmonist" article. So, I can't say it anymore.

 

I have not reached a *final* conclusion personaly. Actualy I am having

correspondence with my guru maharaja on these points. He is not on com

though, so it takes some months between letters. The diologue we (the

varnasrama crew) have had in the last month, on com, would probabaly have

taken me about two years with him, due to his traveling, the forwarding of

mail, his forwarding his reply, and it reaching me.

 

I have simply been offering my thoughts on the matter, and I am open to

rectifying them, should they prove erroneous.

 

> 1. If the result of hearing directly from the lips of Prabhupada

> is that now his disciples got to hear again the same from an

> another pure devotees, in order to understand and get delivered, then I

> don't believe in that "hearing from the lips of a pure devotee."

 

Any disciple who acts on the personal instructions of his guru with full

sincerity and full surrender, is always in direct contact with his

gurumaharaja by dint of this perfect surrender to him. There is no question

of seperation, and he can continue to advance, just as Srila Prabhupada did,

he was the perfect example of this, even though he was an eternaly liberated

soul.

 

> 2. That reading Prabhupada's written words, on one side, and hearing

> directly from his lips, on the other, might be of the different effect, is

> one thing. But to place the reading of his words (which would perhaps

> include also listening SB and BG classes from not cent percent pure uttama

> devotees, since they are also reading and understanding it "on their own")

> into the category of "empiric study"... well... I know you have read the

> article from "Harmonist". But.

 

Bhaktisiddhanta says what he says, and guru is one....

 

> So no chance anyway to prove your argument wrong. If there

> is no such direct evidence to directly contradict what

> you are concluding, then you are "up" with it. And if there

> is such, then you are even more "up" with it.

 

Prabhuji, really I am not interested in 'winning arguments'. I am posing

things I have discovered (and there are other devotees also questioning

along these lines) for all of your consideration, and I am suggestion that

we are not necesarily in possession of the full truth on these matters, and

that I think we should be aware of this. You can all take it in whatever way

you desire. Bhaktisiddhanta wrote some words, I trust him to be a fully

wonderful potent pure devotee, and I sometimes question what we have been

lead to beleive by an assortment of leaders over the years, who did do a

fair amount of cheating. I am convinced that if we look hard enought we can

find the same conclusions in prabhupadas books, as the principle that 'guru

is one' means they never contradict one another.

 

> - All sastras must be explained by pure devotees.

> - Any literature written by pure devotees is Sastra.

> - Hence anything written (by pure devotees) must be heard

> from pure devotees in order to get reconciled.

> (anything but Bhaktisiddhanta's "Harmonist")

 

How many times do I have to repeat this. Bhaktisiddhanta's point is that 'no

honest man can miss the message of Bhaktivinoda'. He grants that by empiric

study, no one can misunderstand, that one needs to HEAR from the LIPS of the

pure devotee, the writings of Bhaktivinoda. That is the entire point of the

article.

 

> Apparently you haven't present your revolutionary idea (as you

> call it so) to any of your spiritual authority for consultation.

> You are just about to assume the role of a siksa guru to all

> of them. To instruct them the "siddhanta" of KC philosophy,

> as found in the "Harmonist" article.

 

Well, it is not 'MY' revolutionary idea. And I am in correspondence about it

with my gurmaharaja. Any ideas *I* may have should be treated with the

utmost caution as they could be dangerous (be warned). Actualy Srila

Prabhupada has said that any of his guru maharaj's articles can be printed

without hesitation, so I didn't. Maybe I should have refrained from

commenting on it, but as that is what everyone on this conference does all

the time, why not? However I have given you the impression that I desire to

be some kind of Siksa guru to all of Srila Prabhupadas disciples, sorry

about that, I dont.

 

Maybe we should all consult with our authorities before writing to this

conference? If so, I guess I will be back in a few months.

 

The amazing thing is that everyday someone comes up with some sastric quotes

or some letters to 'prove' their points, and we continue to disagree. Yet

there still seems to be some reluctance to want to 'pray' for Krsna to send

someone to help us. Do we all have so much faith in ourselves, that we can

'decipher' by our own mental capacity, our way back home?

 

Ys Sd