Guest guest Posted May 25, 1999 Report Share Posted May 25, 1999 > > > The varna training is indeed received rather from an another > > experienced person situated in that particular varna, > > > Not according to A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami: At least we agree that it is not a spiritual master who does it, or do we really? Not a single quote that you provided gave the confirmation that it is a *spiritual master* that is supposed to train people into their varnic occupation. I mean, we are splitting hears about what kind of a Vaisnava is to be called a bona fide spiritual master on the first place, finding out that such nittya-siddha is more rare and more precious than anything else in this creation. And here you are, right on the very spot, proposing that such personalities are meant to train millions and billions of people into their varnic occupations. As far as wether it is even just brahmanas that are to be ones to train everybody else into their varnic skills, a very indicative Prabhupada's statement appears in the very quote that you provided: "So brahmana should be expert in every kind of knowledge. If he requires, he will become teacher. This is brahmana." What I would understand -- if there is no more qualified carpenters to teach their students how to make the windows, I guess a brahmana would do it then. Or if the military officers have become so useless that they can't train properly their soldiers anymore how to use their weapons and how to kill the enemy, then guess what... if it requires... ---------------------- You know what. Before we attempt some further discussion in this direction, let's first clear one step after another. Let's start with defining the terms we are using (so that we don't run into each other's mouth anymore). So, yes. Your proposal was that it is gurus to be the ones to train the varnas and asramas (right?). Define this term "guru" so that we may know wether you think "a pure devotee of the Lord" or "leader" or "sannyas" or "brahmana"... ----------------------- > > activities). So, you turn a "coin" this way or that way, ISCKON gurus > > got to get blamed no matter what. > > > Yes. This is their problem. > > This is only because the ISKCON gurus have not yet in the last 25 years > followed Srila Prabhupada's orders to divide themselves into the varnas to > teach the proper subjects they have developed expertise in. > > > "Srila Prabhupada: We are getting so many sannyasis. They should teach. > The teaching should be done by the sannyasis." Oh... I see now. With "guru" you meant "sannyas". (actually, you never said it, you are right) "The teaching should be done by sannyasis" is supposed to read "gurus got the order to divide themselves into the varnas"??? Santa Maria Virgina! One sentence only, taken out of somewhere, without any reference to anything, is just enough for you to "prove" how ISCKON gurus disregarded the order from Prabhupada to divide themselves into the varnas to teach the people "the proper subjects". But the best part is yet to come... You know, in order to give the order to gurus to *divide themselves* into varnas, Prabhupada got to give them order to become the gurus on the first place. Only after that they could possibly get the order to "divide themselves" (into whatever you like to say). But nobody hold the breath till your answer arrives... NO WAY! That would mean that they are authorized, bona fide gurus. And that's something that we can't allow to pass through. I mean, you already put them into the quotation marks: << I would love to see many "gurus" established to train the varnas and asramas. >> .... indicating that they are not real gurus, but so-called gurus. What further insisting on producing some additional "order disobeying" you are in need for anyway?? ys mnd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 25, 1999 Report Share Posted May 25, 1999 "WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA)" wrote: > [Text 2345282 from COM] > > On 25 May 1999, Mahanidhi das wrote: > > > > Hare Krsna dasi wrote: > > > But in Srila Prabhupada's description below, it appears that the guru > > > would be the one who determines what is the appropriate varna for the > > > disciple to serve Krsna. > > > Once the guru designates the varna of the disciple, then the disciple > > > might even be sent to someone else to train him. > > This interpretation I disagree with. This would be more applicable to an ideal > Vedic community or city with well established and numerous grihasta-brahmana > gurus who know their job in the varnasrama-dharma institution. They teach a > particular varna because that is what brahmanas do. It is really stupendous to me how you have this tendency to brush away complete sections of what other people write in their posts. I specifically acknowledged that in many cases brahmanas will do the training. I specifically referred to the Varnasrama walks which you quote below. But I also quoted another statement which Srila Prabhupada made only one month later when he seemed to expand on who could do the training -- not only brahmanas, but experts in other varnas as well Please note: <<In the Varnasrama Walks (March 1974), Srila Prabhupada proposes that it is brahmanas who will be teaching all the subjects, whether brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, or sudra. In this version (only one month later) Srila Prabhupada presents another possible method of training -- that the teacher would not necessarily be a brahmana, he might in fact be a vaisya, ksatriya, sudra, etc. <<So, the teacher might be a brahmana or even a sudra (in this example, a musician), but Prabhupada specifically states that the guru will test the candidate and see *which* varna is best suited to him. Therefore, it seems that the guru would not really be specialized to accepting disciples only from one particular varna. ************************ Again, here is my example, wherein Srila Prabhupada indicates that it is not only the brahmanas who can provide varna training. ************************** Morning Walk Hyderabad, April 20, 1974 740420MW.HYD Pancadravida: How do you teach a varnasrama college? In varnasrama college if somebody comes in... They say, "I want to be ksatriya" or "I want to be vaisya." Is it like that? Prabhupada: No, that will be tested by the teachers, what for he is fit. He will be test by the guru. Pancadravida: Who will teach him to be a ksatriya or who will teach him to be a vaisya? Prabhupada: A ksatriya, a brahmana. Just like if you want to learn music, you have to go to a musician. Pancadravida: So where will we get ksatriyas and...? Prabhupada: That is in the sastra. Anyone can learn it. Just like if you want to be doctor, so you must have this qualification. Similarly, these things are stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Ksatriya means if there is fight, he must go forward first of all, risking his life. That is ksatriya. Pancadravida: So we have men who could teach this? Do we have men...? Prabhupada: Yes. (break) Because he knows how to teach. That's all. Pancadravida: The brahmanas, they all become devotee... They would all be engaged in devotional life as... Prabhupada: This is also devotion, to teach a ksatriya, because this is necessary in the society. This is also devotion. Pancadravida: And vaisyas? Prabhupada: Just like when Krsna is fighting. Krsna is fighting, killing the demons. So that is also devotion, if you help Krsna by killing demons, not that simply by chanting, you supply... Just like Bhismadeva. He even injured Krsna, and Krsna took it very pleasant. Instead of throwing flowers, he pierced His body with arrow. So everything for the service. If Krsna is pleased being pierced by the arrow the devotee will do that. His only business is how to please Krsna. ************************* Now here is your example, which I have already acknowledged as *one example* of how a person may be trained in his varna. ************************* > Besides, why guess, Srila Prabhupada told us how it is to happen: > > "Prabhupada: ...This is brahmana. > Hrdayananda: So what kind of practical work can we engage them in? > Prabhupada: They will all be teachers. Just like Drona. He was brahmana, but > he was teaching military art to the Pandavas.... So brahmana should be expert > in every kind of knowledge. If he requires, he will become teacher. This is > brahmana. ************************** When I offer Srila Prabhupada's suggestion that a guru could guide his disciple to a member of a particular varna for training you reject that idea: > > Hare Krsna dasi wrote: > > But in Srila Prabhupada's description below, it appears that the guru > > would be the one who determines what is the appropriate varna for the > > disciple to serve Krsna. > > Once the guru designates the varna of the disciple, then the disciple > > might even be sent to someone else to train him. Janesvara commented: This interpretation I disagree with. This would be more applicable to an ideal Vedic community or city with well established and numerous grihasta-brahmana gurus who know their job in the varnasrama-dharma institution. ******************* But if you look back very carefully to the April 20th conversation, you will see that Prabhupada is not speaking of an ideal Vedic community. He is speaking of a transitional community, for right now. In an ideal Vedic community, there is no such thing as a varnasrama college, because learning can take place in a spontaneous, much less structured way, because many people already know how to do different tasks. The varnasrama college that Srila Prabhupada proposes is a brand new thing -- never seen before by any traditional Vedic community. So, when Prabhupada speaks of getting training from those who are not brahmanas, he means right now, not in some idylic state. But, once again, we must also see how brahmana instruction will fit in and where it will be essential. For example, we can learn quite a bit from non-devotee cowherds about rotational grazing, etc. Nevertheless, there are also gaps in the knowledge that we could receive from them because they know nothing of the philosophy of cow protection. Therefore, any training that we get from a non-devotee cowherd also needs to be overseen by a brahmana advisor. your servant, Hare Krsna dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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