Is Janesvara dasa a ritvik?

[Guest guest]

If I have to respond to the challenge of Mother Hare Krsna suspecting me of

being a "ritvik" then the deal is that I get to write as long a response as I

want to! No one has to read it of course.

 

 

On 25 May 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

> > On 24 May 1999, Hare Krsna dasi wrote:

 

> > > Prabhu, can you please clarify this for all the devotees. Do you agree

with

> > > the argument of the rtviks that a devotee can still take diksa

initiation from

> > > Srila Prabhupada? If your position differs from theirs, could you

please explain

> > the difference.

 

 

> > And the witchhunt begins.

 

> > You can call me any name you wish. I find it immature and naive, but that

is

> > only my opinion.

 

> > If you are planning a long, drawn out trial to determine if I am a heretic

> > I'll save you the trouble and exit from COM at your request.

 

 

> Lighten up Janesh. It's just a question seeking clarification.

 

 

I will respond to you, Gosh, because I feel friendship . I feel I am guilty

until proven innocent with some of the other parties. Obviously 2 years of

involvement on this conference affords me no credibility (I've been secretly

poisoning everyone with my heresy). And I am not exactly preaching to the

choir here, either. Anything even vaguely resembling "ritvik" is taken as a

serious threat to every non-Prabhupada diksa disciple. Those are not my

intentions.

 

 

Hare Krsna dd wrote:

> > Do you agree with the argument of the rtviks that a devotee can still take

diksa initiation from Srila Prabhupada?

 

 

First, I have never read even one page of "TFO". I have read small snipits of

this publication from various areas of the internet and the responses from the

other side of the issue as well. Any "conclusions" or opinions I have come to

are as the result of my own study of Srila Prabhupada's books, tapes and

letters. I do not have folio either. I am not a brahmana, I am a ksatriya. I

am not a "ritvik", which means officiating priest, I am a ksatriya. I am not a

great Ksatriya like my idols Sri Arjuna, Sri Yudhistira, Dhruva, etc., but

then not every basketball player is Michael Jordan, yet still they are

basketball players.

 

I do not like the way the term "ritvik" is bandied about as if it is our own

derogatory term to throw aimlessly at anyone we wish without knowing if they

are in fact priests. Srila Prabhupada used the term very respectfully and I

think he would not appreciate the way it is used these days. Both sides of the

issue throw names needlessly. I am guilty also, but I would like to see myself

stop such things in my life along with the other million or so faults.

Admitting my faults is half my battle.

 

I do not know the full details of the beliefs of those godbrothers of mine who

embrace the conclusions of TFO, but I do know many of them are very

intelligent people who I, wherever I meet such, try not to dismiss out of

blind ambition and cultism.

 

I have many, many friends who are devotees of the Lord who have very little if

anything to do with ISKCON. Whenever I talk to them the subject of "ritvik"

rarely comes up. Only friendly real people-to-people stuff and Krsna Katha is

discussed. Most agree that all is well with their existing relationship with

Srila Prabhupada Were I wise I would probably stay away from the issue as

well. I think if Srila Prabhupada came back now he would be highly disturbed

that thousands of his disciples are now gone from his movement and he would

express his anger like he used to when we disturbed George Harrison and others

who left.

 

If we said, "Prabhupada, we do not want them here because they say you can

still accept diksa initiation even though you departed from this world and

your physical body. We feel this is against Pancharatriki-vidhi and our

experience of the parampara to this point. So we made a law that they weren't

allowed in your movement anymore."

 

Do you really think he would say OK? I kind of hear him saying, "Initiation or

no initiation...it is minor thing. Transcendental knowledge, Krsna

consciousness, Bhagavat philosophy that is the important thing. They are

chanting Hare Krsna and that will cleanse everyone no matter what their

faults. They are mahatmas, too. Please invite them back immediately." Just my

opinion though.

 

 

My opinion is that siksa initiation from an uttama-adhikari is essential to be

delivered from nescience. Nescience I consider to be ignorance of Krsna as the

Supreme Personality of Godhead and that His name, form, fame, pastimes,

entourage, etc. are absolutely equal to Him. The opposite of nescience is

science and true science is knowing Krsna and serving Him in knowledge of that

fact. Serving Him is the constitutional position of every living entity and it

is comprised of nine activities (sravananam, kirtanamam, visnu smaranam,

etc.). I believe that that siksa can be accessed through the words of the

uttama-adhikari whether written or heard from the lips directly, IF the most

current parampara acarya stated this as such.

 

My opinion is that siksa is all that is necessary to become self-realized in

this age and that the easiest process to obtain this siksa is the sankirtana

process as enunciated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Hearing and chanting, or

more specifically defined, describing the glories of the Lord. This is the

only process necessary in this age.

 

However, due to the nature of this age and the accumulated impurities of the

spirit soul since time immemorial there is reluctance to take wholeheartedly

to the sankirtana movement with full faith that it is the life of all

transcendental knowledge, it increases the ocean of transcendental bliss and

it enables us to taste the nectar for which we are always anxious. Therefore,

the great sages and acaryas have enunciated the institution of

Pancharatrika-vidhi for the purpose of providing material means of worship to

the arca-vigraha form of the Lord known as arcana. Bhaktisiddhanta instituted

the simultaneous practice of bhagavat-vidhi and arcana in the gaudiya

sampradaya. Diksa initiation is a ritual of this pancharatrika-vidhi. However,

it is my opinion that inclusion of Pancharatrika-vidhi rituals was primarily

intended to emphasize Deity worship more than diksa initiation as reflected in

Srila Prabhupada's program in ISKCON where diksa initiation was not clearly

performed by him personally in many, many cases of his disciples.

Bhagavata-vidhi far outweighs Pancharatrika-vidhi in my humble opinion and in

Bhagavata-vidhi diksa initiation is not required, as in the example of

Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur, or at least is considered very minor. Chanting

the holy names of the Lord is by far the most prescribed process for

purification of any type in the Bhagavat line. If there was no fire sacrifice,

no ritual diksa initiation but just a big kirtan welcoming a disciple into the

program after sufficient siksa training, I personally think it would "work"

just fine.

 

The following are some reasons for my opinion:

 

"In the Srimad-Bhagavatam there is no recommendation of pancharatriki worship

because in this Kali-yuga, even without Deity worship, everything can be

perfectly performed simply through hearing, chanting, remembering and worship

of the lotus feet of the Lord." S.B. 7.5.24.

 

The chanting of the Hare Krsna mantra is recommended even for persons who

commit offenses, because if they continue chanting they will gradually chant

offenselessly. ...Even if in the beginning one chants the Hare Krsna mantra

with offenses, one will become free from such offenses by chanting again and

again." 6.3.24

 

"It is recommended that even if one commits offenses, one should continue

chanting the holy name. In other words, the chanting of the holy name makes

one offenseless,...if one is an offender in chanting the holy name, he should

submit to the holy name and thus be freed from his offenses. SB 7.5.24.

 

"Especially in this age of Kali, sankirtan alone is sufficient. If the members

of our temples inthe different parts of the world simply continue sankirtana

before the Deity, especially before Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, they will remain

perfect. There is no need of any other performances.

 

"Nevertheless, to keep oneself clean in habits and mind, Deity worship and

other regulative principles are required. ... we strictly follow this

principle of performing Deity worship and sankirtana along parallel lines.

This we should continue." SB 6.3.25.

 

 

I feel that since Srila Prabhupada departed physically, there has been an ever

growing emphasis put on these rituals of which diksa initiation is a part.

Diksa initiation has been stressed far more than siksa and Bhagavata-vidhi. (I

will not go into my suspicions as to the motive behind this now.) This does

not attract me personally. It makes the movement institutional, cultish at

times, ritualistic, even church-like. I joined the movement because it was so

different than those things. Srila Prabhupada was so simple and pure. Religion

became a part of my life, where it was formerly completely absent with malice,

because he preached bhagavata philosophy which meant I could be religious

without joining some organized, institutional religious sect. I could just

read his books, chant holy names and do my duty as a ksatriya. I had always

idolized Arjuna from the very beginning because Bhagavad-gita was the first

book I read and I had no idea their was an institution/organization behind the

book. Krsna's friendship with and teachings to Arjuna represented to me the

perfect form of high philosophy, religious duty and reaching the supreme goal

of life. I could do it anywhere, at any time.

 

 

Bhagavata and varnasrama-dharma go perfectly well together both having been

spoken by Bhagavan and Bhagavatas. Bhagavat is the perfect spiritual system to

be performed in the perfect social system- daiva varnasrama. Think Bhagavat,

work in varnasrama. Think Bhagavat, work in varnasrama. Think Bhagavat, work

in varnasrama. Pancharatriki, on the other hand, is not recommended in the

Bhagavatam. It is, however, recommended by guru and sadhu in certain

circumstances and therefore it must be understood to be applicable as

prescribed for those requiring the same.

 

I do not think that Srila Prabhupada gives diksa initiation now that he has

departed "physically".

 

The diksa initiation I am referring to is pancharatrika-vidhi formal

ritualistic diksa. It is mostly for those interested in the flowery parts of

the Vedic regulations and not a major consideration in Bhagavata philosophy.

Diksa, to me, actually means transcendental knowledge imparted to the

disciple. If true Vaisnava transcendental knowledge has not been imparted to a

disciple by an uttama-adhikari, formal diksa initiation through a

smarta-brahmana ritual will have no effect other than social status.

 

If people are going to be attached to such things due to proportionate lack of

faith or determined practice in the sankirtan process then there must be

facility given to perform these rituals in order to encourage people on the

spiritual path. Practically, I think that ISKCON should develop diksa

initiation gurus through the institution of varnasrama colleges in order to

train the most qualified brahmanas we can and the diksa initiation should be

done primarily by grihasta-brahmanas as prescribed by the Pancharatrika

regulations. We do not have to completely limit it to grihasta-brahmanas as

Lord Caitanya spoke of sannyasi-gurus provided they were Vaisnavas who knew

perfectly the science of Bhagavat, but for us some general guidelines should

be there. These brahmanas would likely have been the initiate's siksa guru

also (from gurukula, varnasrama college for example), but 90% of siksa, I

feel, should be from Srila Prabhupada for the foreseeable future. Maybe even

10,000 years.

 

I think a diksa-guru, he who performs the formal diksa ritual/initiation, does

not have to be an uttama-adhikari maha-bhagavat, though I am not sure of

myself on this aspect. There may be distinct qualifications required by sastra

which should be clearly identified in the varnasrama college training.

Certainly the diksa-guru must be a brahmana and those qualifications are

pretty clear in Srila Prabhupada's books. We cannot gloss over these

qualifications if we are going to attempt Pancharatrika rituals. Just as in

Deity worship if we cannot do it properly we are forbidden to do it at all and

Srila Prabhupada advised Pancha-tattva worship instead. Similarly,

salagrama-sila worship was held off by Srila Prabhupada for many years because

he felt his disciples were not advanced enough for it.

 

This is a main point of mine. If we cannot do these Vedic rituals of

Pancharatrika-vidhi as required in the regulations then better we abandon them

and take up the sankirtana practice which, while we may perform it offensively

in the beginning, will purify us by the same practice. Offensive Deity worship

or improper diksa initiation is much harder to atone for and sinful reaction

is magnified. Caution is everything. Especially when we have a superior method

of purification which has no hard and fast rules. (Seems like a no-brainer,

sometimes!)

 

So qualifications should be vigilantly identified and defended despite

humiliation or false egos if we are going to require such Pancharatrika

rituals.

 

I also feel that Srila Prabhupada's program can and will develop other pure

devotee, mahabhagavatas capable of giving unquestioned, 100% Krsna conscious

siksa and diksa. The timing of such an occurrence I cannot predict. I

personally do not feel that there is such a devotee in ISKCON at present only

because it is my personal opinion that if there were, this pure devotee,

mahabhagavata would be promoting, teaching, training, actively and

practicably, the implementation of daiva varnasrama-dharma

(sankirtan/prescribed varna duty) within this society and everywhere else

possible.

No disciple, or grand, grand-grand disciple, etc., of Srila Prabhupada can

read his teachings sincerely and non-enviously and come away with a different

or better idea of how to spread the Krsna consciousness movement in the large

manner he envisioned and spoke of so often, in my opinion.

 

There is much more that could be said, but I doubt too many got anywhere's

near this far in this text.

 

 

So there you have it. If I am to be called a "ritvik"as the result of the

foregoing opinions I am proud to be one. Personally if I were to be called

something other than a ksatriya as the result of my beliefs I would prefer to

be called a "bhagavat" (not to be confused with a maha-bhagavata!) Just a guy

that would really like to see the emphasis switched to 95% bhagavata preaching

and relating with other devotees.

 

Your fallen servant,

Janesvara dasa