Varna determination and who trains

[Guest guest]

"WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2345282 from COM]

>

> On 25 May 1999, Mahanidhi das wrote:

>

> > > Hare Krsna dasi wrote:

> > > But in Srila Prabhupada's description below, it appears that the guru

> > > would be the one who determines what is the appropriate varna for the

> > > disciple to serve Krsna.

> > > Once the guru designates the varna of the disciple, then the disciple

> > > might even be sent to someone else to train him.

>

> This interpretation I disagree with. This would be more applicable to an

ideal

> Vedic community or city with well established and numerous grihasta-brahmana

> gurus who know their job in the varnasrama-dharma institution. They teach a

> particular varna because that is what brahmanas do.

 

It is really stupendous to me how you have this tendency to brush away complete

sections of what other people write in their posts. I specifically

acknowledged

that in many cases brahmanas will do the training. I specifically referred to

the

Varnasrama walks which you quote below. But I also quoted another statement

which

Srila Prabhupada made only one month later when he seemed to expand on who

could

do the training -- not only brahmanas, but experts in other varnas as well

Please

note:

 

<<In the Varnasrama Walks (March 1974), Srila Prabhupada proposes that it is

brahmanas who will be teaching all the subjects, whether brahmana, ksatriya,

vaisya, or sudra. In this version (only one month later) Srila Prabhupada

presents another possible method of training -- that the teacher would not

necessarily be a brahmana, he might in fact be a vaisya, ksatriya, sudra, etc.

 

<<So, the teacher might be a brahmana or even a sudra (in this example, a

musician),

but Prabhupada specifically states that the guru will test the candidate and

see

*which* varna is best suited to him. Therefore, it seems that the guru would

not

really be specialized to accepting disciples only from one particular varna.

 

************************

 

Again, here is my example, wherein Srila Prabhupada indicates that it is not

only

the brahmanas who can provide varna training.

 

**************************

 

Morning Walk Hyderabad, April 20, 1974

740420MW.HYD

 

Pancadravida: How do you teach a varnasrama college? In varnasrama college if

somebody comes in... They say, "I want to be ksatriya" or "I want to be

vaisya."

Is it like that? Prabhupada: No, that will be tested by the teachers, what for

he

is fit. He will be test by the guru.

 

Pancadravida: Who will teach him to be a ksatriya or who will teach him to be a

vaisya?

Prabhupada: A ksatriya, a brahmana. Just like if you want to learn music, you

have

to go to a musician.

Pancadravida: So where will we get ksatriyas and...?

 

Prabhupada: That is in the sastra. Anyone can learn it. Just like if you want

to

be doctor, so you must have this qualification. Similarly, these things are

stated

in the Bhagavad-gita. Ksatriya means if there is fight, he must go forward

first

of all, risking his life. That is ksatriya.

 

Pancadravida: So we have men who could teach this? Do we have men...?

Prabhupada: Yes. (break) Because he knows how to teach. That's all.

 

Pancadravida: The brahmanas, they all become devotee... They would all be

engaged

in devotional life as...

Prabhupada: This is also devotion, to teach a ksatriya, because this is

necessary

in the society. This is also devotion.

 

Pancadravida: And vaisyas?

Prabhupada: Just like when Krsna is fighting. Krsna is fighting, killing the

demons. So that is also devotion, if you help Krsna by killing demons, not that

simply by chanting, you supply... Just like Bhismadeva. He even injured Krsna,

and

Krsna took it very pleasant. Instead of throwing flowers, he pierced His body

with

arrow.

 

So everything for the service. If Krsna is pleased being pierced by the arrow

the

devotee will do that. His only business is how to please Krsna.

 

*************************

 

Now here is your example, which I have already acknowledged as *one example* of

how a person may be trained in his varna.

 

*************************

 

> Besides, why guess, Srila Prabhupada told us how it is to happen:

>

> "Prabhupada: ...This is brahmana.

> Hrdayananda: So what kind of practical work can we engage them in?

> Prabhupada: They will all be teachers. Just like Drona. He was brahmana, but

> he was teaching military art to the Pandavas.... So brahmana should be expert

> in every kind of knowledge. If he requires, he will become teacher. This is

> brahmana.

 

**************************

 

When I offer Srila Prabhupada's suggestion that a guru could guide his disciple

to

a member of a particular varna for training you reject that idea:

 

> > Hare Krsna dasi wrote:

> > But in Srila Prabhupada's description below, it appears that the guru

> > would be the one who determines what is the appropriate varna for the

> > disciple to serve Krsna.

> > Once the guru designates the varna of the disciple, then the disciple

> > might even be sent to someone else to train him.

 

Janesvara commented:

 

This interpretation I disagree with. This would be more applicable to an ideal

Vedic community or city with well established and numerous grihasta-brahmana

gurus who know their job in the varnasrama-dharma institution.

 

*******************

 

But if you look back very carefully to the April 20th conversation, you will

see

that Prabhupada is not speaking of an ideal Vedic community. He is speaking of

a

transitional community, for right now. In an ideal Vedic community, there is

no

such thing as a varnasrama college, because learning can take place in a

spontaneous, much less structured way, because many people already know how to

do

different tasks. The varnasrama college that Srila Prabhupada proposes is a

brand

new thing -- never seen before by any traditional Vedic community.

 

So, when Prabhupada speaks of getting training from those who are not

brahmanas,

he means right now, not in some idylic state. But, once again, we must also

see

how brahmana instruction will fit in and where it will be essential.

 

For example, we can learn quite a bit from non-devotee cowherds about

rotational

grazing, etc. Nevertheless, there are also gaps in the knowledge that we could

receive from them because they know nothing of the philosophy of cow

protection.

Therefore, any training that we get from a non-devotee cowherd also needs to be

overseen by a brahmana advisor.

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

[Guest guest]

On 25 May 1999, Hare Krsna dasi wrote:

 

 

> It is really stupendous to me how you have this tendency to brush away

complete

> sections of what other people write in their posts.

 

 

 

I know you have somehow branded me a heretic or something or it just bugs you

that someone disagrees with you, and therefore almost anything I say is

"stupendous". I do not mean to be and any inadvertant bullyish comments of

mine I will apologize for. I used to be given much wider space before I became

the heretic.

 

 

>

> Again, here is my example, wherein Srila Prabhupada indicates that it is not

> only

> the brahmanas who can provide varna training.

>

 

 

I must be really thick or something because I do not read what you are saying

in the quote. Please pull out the specific lines referencing what you are

saying. I can be convinced I have a wrong impression or idea, believe me. My

children teach me new things everyday. I am just trying to understand it.

 

I am no authority on VAD. I am sure I don't need to tell you that. But I have

an intense interest in it and will scrutinize every scrap of interpretation I

read. Someday I will get it through my thick skull after testing the patience

of people like you.

[Guest guest]

> > Fine. Then stop attacking ISCKON spiritual masters for

> > "disobeying the order" of Srila Prabhupada. Leave them

> > teach that "spirit stuff". Stop drilling everybody's brain

> > how they are to be acting as "a varna guru" teachers.

>

>

> Sorry Prabhu, but for me, you have made this conference completely

> unattractive. I thought one was allowed to express his opinion freely.

 

Yes, I am really telling you my opinion very freely, that I

think you got to stop with the above mentioned exercise of

hunting the ISCKON gurus. Otherwise, I can't possibly stop

you, got no technical possibility to do that.

 

So, the freedom of speech is a great thing, isn't it? You can

tell juust anyhting you want about anybody you want, but God

forbids somebody to express his/her objection to you.

 

 

 

> In

> my opinion, you are wrong about your conception of training and I do not

> believe you are fully familiar with Srila Prabhupada's conversations

> regarding this in his morning walks conversations about it in '74.

>

 

I really don't bother wether anybody thinks that I am fully

familiar or not fully familiar with the mentioned conversations

of Srila Prabhupada.

 

 

>

>

> I am not "drilling" anybody's brain. If people disagree with me they

> simply have to hit the delete key as I shall now do with your texts.

>

 

If Janesvara's deleting Mahanidhi's texts is the only "price"

to be paid for curbing down Janesvara's eagerness for blasting

the Spiritual Masters in ISCKON on every his second step, then

nobody more satisfied than me. But let's hope.

 

He wants to receive "I_agree_with_you_Janesvara" texts only.

The application of "equality in both fame and defame" injunction,

that is so practically and easily achieved in this modern

age -- hit the magic "delete key"

 

 

 

ys mnd